Do you fly with honor?

[Ace_Pilto]

I wouldn't say I fly with honour but I don't waste ammunition on dead planes. That's for idiots and edgy teenagers.

[XQ_Lothar29]

I was just playing a round in IL2 1946, my 190 was shot to bits and its engine had quit I was trying to glide back across to the German lines when a Spitfire attacked. I was able to dodge most of his rounds but he soon came back slowed down and got right behind me and fired I was about 100 feed in the air and there was nothing I could do. He clearly saw that my engine was out during his first pass and I even told him so but he still wanted to steal someone else victory (I had been in a dog fight with two P-51Ds), I don't believe that is flying with honor. If a planes engine out I let it go or if a pilot says his elevators have been rendered useless I will let him go as neither of those situation present a challenge to me and don't allow him to fight back. Also I will never shoot a pilot in his chute, doing any of those things is just flying dishonorably and that's not how I fly.

How do you fly like a ruthless cut throat or a knight of the air?

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/19255-without-air-knights/

[Jaws2002]

I was just playing a round in IL2 1946, my 190 was shot to bits and its engine had quit I was trying to glide back across to the German lines when a Spitfire attacked. I was able to dodge most of his rounds but he soon came back slowed down and got right behind me and fired I was about 100 feed in the air and there was nothing I could do. He clearly saw that my engine was out during his first pass and I even told him so but he still wanted to steal someone else victory (I had been in a dog fight with two P-51Ds), I don't believe that is flying with honor. If a planes engine out I let it go or if a pilot says his elevators have been rendered useless I will let him go as neither of those situation present a challenge to me and don't allow him to fight back. Also I will never shoot a pilot in his chute, doing any of those things is just flying dishonorably and that's not how I fly.

How do you fly like a ruthless cut throat or a knight of the air?

 

 

    In that situation you were a perfectly valid target. Your plane is in such a mess that you can't fight and someone is eyeballing you? Bail out. That's what you would do in real life. Nobody in his right mind, that has a parachute and can jump, would stick around and risk being shot to pieces.

[BlitzPig_EL]

What jaws said, of course if you are on a server where the number of planes shot down counts toward the win, then you absolutely were a totally valid target the way the scoring in IL2/46 works.

 

People are so thin skinned now a days.

 

Amazing.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

    In that situation you were a perfectly valid target. Your plane is in such a mess that you can't fight and someone is eyeballing you? Bail out. That's what you would do in real life. Nobody in his right mind, that has a parachute and can jump, would stick around and risk being shot to pieces.

 

Do keep in mind that, if speaking of realism, this is the Eastern Front. The life expectancy of a prisoner here was not exactly high for either side, so it is understandable why someone would want to die rather than become prisoner.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

WHAT?!?! ... why i oughta... (j/k)

.

and that was your prerogative, based on your pov. personally, i see no reason to call it honor,sporting, or dishonor, because it really does depend on your point of view...

.

for instance, imho, letting those bombers go just gave an advantage to the opposing team, which endangered the rest of YOUR team that is relying on you to help them win. you could have delayed and discouraged them and therefore defended their target (which was your assumed duty?) if you would have stopped or hindered them. but, that's MY pov, and i do not get offended by you having your own preference, even though you may cause your team to lose ;>/

.

the other day, i caught a lone 111 almost to target without escort and tore it to pieces. the pilot chat was "not cool, i was almost to [target]". i don't know exactly what his statement was implying about my aggression, but i DID understand that he was quite disappointed about spending so much time on the mission only to be robbed of any success by the enemy (and that's the game!). so, my point is, whether they (the enemy) are destroyed on takeoff, landing, or en route, it's always going to be some sort of inconvenience for the 'victim'. but my argument about 'honor' is that, at most, it's a minor inconvenience to the opposition's goal (to destroy you) versus a real-life losing of life and limb (which again, might actually cause even more brutal behavior).

.

shooting parachutes? i wont bother. but i can imagine a scenario where some stat competitors might do it to add a negative to a competitor's stats. different pov. actually, i understand that IRL, there was quite a bit of it that went on. - they had to worry about folks returning to service. and their was quite a bit of enmity generated for aggressors that bombed your fellow citizens.

.

i don't try to judge behavior in this game, cuz there are too many potential different pov's by different players at different times. and some folks may be just having a difficult personal time and venting.

 

Gump I agree with your assessment here. BoS/BoM presents us with a Combat Flight Simulation where the chief goal is competition. I well understand both arguments of actual stories of honor and lack of honor in real WAR stories. But, in my honest opinion, if the was any real honor there would be no WARS. And Unbeliever I've earned the right to state this as I have been to WAR and seen it's ugly face. 

 

But as I've stated and other also, honor is a personal view point. You refuse to shoot down a bomber in real life, you allow someone to be bombed and killed. Honor? A plane is helpless and limping back to base and you don't shoot it down, honor or foolishness? A personal call. We EACH must make this call and live with it. In a GAME there is no moral tribulation to speak of. Heck most gamers will not even try to return to base and land.

 

Chief

[DeafBee]

Gump I agree with your assessment here. BoS/BoM presents us with a Combat Flight Simulation where the chief goal is competition. I well understand both arguments of actual stories of honor and lack of honor in real WAR stories. But, in my honest opinion, if the was any real honor there would be no WARS. And Unbeliever I've earned the right to state this as I have been to WAR and seen it's ugly face. 

 

But as I've stated and other also, honor is a personal view point. You refuse to shoot down a bomber in real life, you allow someone to be bombed and killed. Honor? A plane is helpless and limping back to base and you don't shoot it down, honor or foolishness? A personal call. We EACH must make this call and live with it. In a GAME there is no moral tribulation to speak of. Heck most gamers will not even try to return to base and land.

 

Chief

 

Well spoken RedCloud. I totally agree.

 

That being said I come from Rise Of flight, where chivalry is more often to be seen. Like not shooting someone trying to land. But you can't expect people to play as you like, as long as they follow the rules on the server. 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I just had my soft side kill me in a SP sortie, goes to show one must have lines

 

12 x 12 Yak-1 vs. 109F-4, I stuck with the flight leader for most of the time until a Messer popped up slow in a climb. I broke off and placed a couple of 20mm rounds in his wing, considered going around to finish the bastard but though 'nah, not worth it'. After leveling out I couldn't find my wingman, the 109 dived away and I proceeded to look for either mine or his flight leader. His found me first, same height, and by now the plane I thought I had defeated was forming up with him. The leader has a head-on pass at me, which I dodge easily. Trailing behind comes the bastard I let live, head on, firing all the way. I prepare my aim and... I got shot in the face by him

 

I re-flew the mission properly this time, sticking to my flight leader at all times. I got no kills, but I supported two of his and cleared his tail twice. Landed with only two aircraft lost, pilots probably alive, while we shot down 8 altogether. Happy pilot I was

 

TL;DR: This is your daily reminder to stick to your flight leaders and properly disable any enemies that are not clearly disengaging or unable to fight before moving on

Edited November 11, 2015 by Lucas_From_Hell

[Gump]

... in my honest opinion, if the was any real honor there would be no WARS. And Unbeliever I've earned the right to state this as I have been to WAR and seen it's ugly face. 

 

...

Chief

.

i can only empathize.

.

although my opinion is that war is not always a result of the complete lack of honor, but sometimes because of the lack of honor by an individual or group of individuals , which then has to be defended against.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

So, the newest BS gamer tactic seems to be flying directly at AAA to prevent the winner from getting credit. Dogfight for five minutes then, after suffering critical damage, dive straight at enemy AAA and deny the winning pilot the kill. Started about three weeks ago and it is now an ongoing thing. Multiple instances from a several pilots now. They'll take the kill if they get the jump on you though. Absolutely childish. 

[Livai]

Drop my bombs over a enemy airfield and turn my plane for a crash landing. Is this job done I switch to the rear gunner and wait for all players who have the idea to taxi to the runways or to start. This call I easy shooting! 1000x better than to drive a tank to the enemy airfield to have some fun!    

[Dave]

Drop my bombs over a enemy airfield and turn my plane for a crash landing. Is this job done I switch to the rear gunner and wait for all players who have the idea to taxi to the runways or to start. This call I easy shooting! 1000x better than to drive a tank to the enemy airfield to have some fun!  

This should be a perma-death

[HippyDruid]

To be frank. where there are online statistics you will always get the behaviour mentioned in this thread.

Gaming the game, being dishonourable, custom cheats. etc are all behaviours fostered by the presence of game statistics. And not just in BoS/BoM!

 

"If my kill:death ratio is far superior to yours in everyway, why would I jeapordise that by playing fair?" - stat whore.

 

To be fair, I don't think every stat whore is a cheating, underhanded, selfish plonker. Nor do I think online statistics should be abolished.

There are (two) options I can see to circumvent this kind of behaviour:

 

1. Play singleplayer.
2. Play with like-minded individuals.
3. Don't play.

 

But let's face it. 3 isn't really an option now is it!? 

[Mac_Messer]

Do keep in mind that, if speaking of realism, this is the Eastern Front. The life expectancy of a prisoner here was not exactly high for either side, so it is understandable why someone would want to die rather than become prisoner.

Seeing as how damaged planes turned on me many times I no longer think that leaving them alone is a valid online behavior. You want to destroy your enemy as quickly as possible and move on. Sometimes I saw people damage someone heavily and type in chat "jump". They do that, wait for about 10 seconds and if target doesn`t bail they open up on him. If some guy wants to glide home when there are 5 more enemies around then it is not my concern.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Mac_Messer

[Monostripezebra]

I don´t believe in "honor" and think it is a bit of a BS-concept.. however I believe in the fundamental difference of games to real war: FUN 

 

I don´t like to shoot clearly crashlanding planes because it is fun and I want the other player to have that fun and have fun watching it, I don´t shoot peoples parachutes because even though it means relativly nothing it is like a gesture to spoil someones fun.. I enjoy balanced fights, because it is more fun, I fly all sides, because it is more fun. And so on and so on...  Because in the end I play to laugh and feel good and do so with others having the same feeling, regardless what side they´re on.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Dr_Zeebra

[BraveSirRobin]

To be frank. where there are online statistics you will always get the behaviour mentioned in this thread.

 

 

To be frank, this is nonsense.  I've seen plenty of ridiculous behavior with no stats at all.  If anything, it's worse when there are no stats.

[Beazil]

In game yesterday I was on the dogfight server. I got a few kills in a 109 and one fellow opens up on me from behind blowing a full third of my left wing off! While I'm trying not to crash I see him fly past and overhead. No chance at a deflection shot I think, as I'm doing about 275 kph at this time. I also see the " Beazil has been killed by xxxx" message on my screen, as he happily flys off, presumably to menace more "would be" aces. Now it wasn't the gentlest of landings but I was allowed to rtb from that furball-taxi lights on and all, so S! to that pilot and friends. Was a fun sortie

Edited March 28, 2016 by II./JG53_Beazil

[BlitzPig_EL]

Why does having your lights on have any bearing at all on it?

 

Talk about a "gamer" tactic.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

.

i can only empathize.

.

although my opinion is that war is not always a result of the complete lack of honor, but sometimes because of the lack of honor by an individual or group of individuals , which then has to be defended against.

 

Just remember, Leaders make war, and warriors only participate. And then there are those that kill to kill.

To be frank, this is nonsense.  I've seen plenty of ridiculous behavior with no stats at all.  If anything, it's worse when there are no stats.

 

I agree that STATS in and of themselves can be important. I even look at them from time to time. But I think what we are really talking about here in a way is not honor in game play but a balance of thoughts to action. Some could care less how they act, and some do care. there has to balance to enjoy anything. Lord knows I've been shot down more than I have shot anyone down. And yet, I still enjoy just trying and flying against those that are better pilots like yourself.

 

Chief

[ECV56_Necathor]

Honor, depends of every pilot.

For me is simple,

Don't shoot parachutes

Don't shoulder shoot

Don't steal kills

I always go for the machine not for the pilot If the plane is badly damage let the pilot alive.

If I have the courage to fly and shoot I have to have courage to accept that other pilot can destroy me, never disconnect.

Never do lights for mark my pos in a combat.

[Beazil]

Why does having your lights on have any bearing at all on it?

 

Talk about a "gamer" tactic.

I assume you are speaking to me. What's with the personal attack? Just couldn't resist mashing your venom into the keyboard? Well, now we all know how you feel about it. Good job.

[Beazil]

What "tactic?" Are you referring to exactly? The part where I was missing half a wing? The part where I was allowed by my opponent to leave the combat scene? Or the part where I turned on my taxi lights to let folks know "I'm out - can't continue the fight?"

 

Devilish i know.

 

Didn't realize I was being so advasarial by sharing a positive experience. I won't do that again.

[Cloyd]

Truly sorry Beazil.

 

I deleted my post that you just responded to. Decided I didn't really want to step into this fray.

 

Cloyd

 

EDIT: I'll put my post back if you want.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Cloyd

[HagarTheHorrible]

Why does having your lights on have any bearing at all on it?

 

Talk about a "gamer" tactic.

Agreed.

 

I think the generally agreed signal of surrender is dropping the undercarriage. If the surrendering aircraft makes any attempt to head for home territory or deviate from an imposed flight path then he's broken his condition of parole and deserves everything he gets. If a damaged aircraft is attacked at anything over a hundred meters or so then the pilot can bail if he doesn't like being attacked, just as it was in the real world.

 

If you're defenseless then it's your own fault, you made a bad call and didn't give enough thought to the consequences of failure so you should be in no position to complain. Every time you are shot down it is a failure to plan properly, because you considered your virtual life was worthless you didn't respect it, why should you complain when others consider it to be even less valuable.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I just find turning on the lights to be a very "gamey" solution to a non-existent issue.

 

If you turned them on in real life you would die even faster, ditto lowering the landing gear.  Has no place in a simulation.

 

My post was not meant as a personal attack, sorry you took it that way, and I assure you I am not pounding my keyboard or spitting venom over a game.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Just a note: lowering gear was, at the time, considered the international side of surrender. If the enemy was playing by the book and you dropped your gear and signaled it (rocking wings or whatever), you would be taken prisoner together with the aircraft upon landing.

[Beazil]

I just find turning on the lights to be a very "gamey" solution to a non-existent issue.

 

If you turned them on in real life you would die even faster, ditto lowering the landing gear. Has no place in a simulation.

 

My post was not meant as a personal attack, sorry you took it that way, and I assure you I am not pounding my keyboard or spitting venom over a game.

I just couldn't understand how surrendering was in any way gamey. I didn't expect to be let go, but I was. I thought it was a neat display of sportsmanship on my opponents part. Even though they had already received the credit. And of course the crash landing simply added to the immersion factor. It was fun. These little touches simply add to the experience for me. And I apologise for adding to the negativity I sometimes think I observe. No worries here guys. S! and good hunting.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I don't understand the concept of putting your nav lights on, or where it came from, dropping the landing gear was internationally recognized as it deliberately put the aircraft in a very vulnerable position in a way that flicking a switch for nav lights does not.

 

I often observe aircraft swtching on their nav lights when they come into land, as I now do. I do it for recognition by others on the ground or in the pattern, so they know I'm not a threat, although a crafty enemy could easily take advantage of that concept (as really happened) Am I alone in this or is everyone else switching them on to warn off enemies not to attack because being attacked while landing is just so damdebly unsporting ?

[No601_Swallow]

Hagar, personally, I do as you do. I use nav lights to make sure my squadron mates can track me in the pattern and we don't farcical things like land on top of each other or from opposite ends of the airfield. But, in a DF server (as opposed to our own coop-style server) I wouldn't expect nav lights (or landing gear) to protect me - attacking aircraft might be legitimately on a "ground attack" mission, and landing aircraft seem fair game, as do those taking off. Surely, if you're landing, you'll have others covering the landing if there's any possibility of danger.

[HippyDruid]

To be frank, this is nonsense.  I've seen plenty of ridiculous behavior with no stats at all.  If anything, it's worse when there are no stats.

Oh it's not nonsense. As I've mentioned. But you're correct about the above-mentioned behaviour occuring regardless of statistics. It's just the way people like to enjoy their game I suppose.

[Beazil]

I suppose I never thought of using it as a way to fool enemy aircraft. And yes i can totally see how that would be "gamey". Honestly at the time it seemed smarter to flip the switch than to drop the gear. I think the best part was trying (and failing) to land with that much damage.

I suppose I never thought of using it as a way to fool enemy aircraft. And yes i can totally see how that would be "gamey". Honestly at the time it seemed smarter to flip the switch than to drop the gear. I think the best part was trying (and failing) to land with that much damage.

[Cloyd]

My first multiplayer flight was in 1996. It was in AirWarrior DOS, back when one had to pay $1 an hour to fly online. I was lucky, my sister worked for an ISP, I got a free account. I flew A LOT! Maybe 20 to 30 hours a week every week for several years. (Needless to say, my wife was not impressed )

 

First flight, spawn on the carrier deck in my F4U, start engine, ready to take off, 2 seconds later, SCREEN GOES RED! Huh, wtf just happened!?! Oh, I’m dead. I just got vulched, someone hovering over the spawn point or actually parked on the deck of the opponent’s carrier just behind the spawn point.

 

Welcome to online flying.

 

Cloyd

[BraveSirRobin]

Oh it's not nonsense. As I've mentioned. But you're correct about the above-mentioned behaviour occuring regardless of statistics. It's just the way people like to enjoy their game I suppose.

 

Dude, if the behavior is just as bad, if not worse, when there are no stats, then stats are NOT the problem.

[HippyDruid]

The player is the problem!

Simply stating that online stats are the sole cause of bad gaming behaviour would be naive.

But I think totally disregarding stats as a possible reason for fostering bad gaming behaviour is also, a little naive.

[No601_Swallow]

My first multiplayer flight was in 1996. It was in AirWarrior DOS, back when one had to pay $1 an hour to fly online. I was lucky, my sister worked for an ISP, I got a free account. I flew A LOT! Maybe 20 to 30 hours a week every week for several years. (Needless to say, my wife was not impressed )

 

First flight, spawn on the carrier deck in my F4U, start engine, ready to take off, 2 seconds later, SCREEN GOES RED! Huh, wtf just happened!?! Oh, I’m dead. I just got vulched, someone hovering over the spawn point or actually parked on the deck of the opponent’s carrier just behind the spawn point.

 

Welcome to online flying.

 

Cloyd

 

Brilliant post. Almost makes me feel young.

 

(My first taste of flight sims was Red Baron on a friend's borrowed 386... Didn't get online until Il-2 though!)

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Just remember, Leaders make war, and warriors only participate. And then there are those that kill to kill.

 

 

 

 

Everyone is responsible for his actions and what he chooses to partake in regardless of the circumstances, any oaths he has taken or what anyone with a star on their shoulder tells him to do.  "Warriors" don't get a pass.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Silas

[BlitzPig_EL]

Ummm... Guys, this is just a game...

[Jade_Monkey]

Ummm... Guys, this is just a game...

How dare you!! This is a simulator! SAVE THE PILOT WAAAAAH WAH WAH

 

Edit:typo

Edited March 29, 2016 by Jade_Monkey

[Livai]

Players that shoot at a friendly pilots and not say "sorry" what they did!

Players that shoot at a ememy plane that has a black smoke behind him!

 

Really funny I damaged the engine from a enemy plane a nice black smoke comes out. I say to me he is finished a second later two friendly planes appear because they have seen the black smoke from the enemy plane and shoot this plane into pieces to get kills much as possible. Or better said shoot down a easy target and steal other pilots their kills.  And the best part is it was a player that stay a few lines behind MK_Mr.X. 

[[CPT]milopugdog]

A good example of what happens when you take a video game happened to me this weekend. I was playing RoF, got into a dogfight with some Fokker, and a camel came in and joined. The Fokker and camel then hit each other head on. "Idiot" said the Fokker pilot. "Why would you take a shot you knew you couldn't make? People don't value lives these days" he continued. To which, I replied "it's just a game". He then went on to say "well, this is a SIMULATOR, it's supposed to be SERIOUS, and IMMERSIVE". I then replied with "it may be a simulator, but if you take it too seriously, you'll lose sight of what it really is".

That's it. He didn't reply to that.