Do you fly with honor?

[74_jim_nihilist]

Honour? I don't know. Right now I fly an Il2 1946 campaign. JG 26 the Abbeville Boys. Starting with the Sitzkieg and I was the last in the squadron. I am now a squadron leader and instead of racking up kills en masse, my goal is now to bring my men savely back home. Even though this is stupid AI. This is what a simulation can do to you, but I digress.

 

I think war delivers all that we can imagine: cruelty, pity, whatever. I certainly don't see sense in shooting a plane down, which can't fight back - game or not. If you never heard about more stories like that of Stiegler, that doesn't mean there weren't more. Don't be naive. Things exist also when there isn't a TV coverage about it. Cheers to all the people that even in war remained human.

Edited November 5, 2015 by 74_jim_nihilist

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Fern, nice text about Nowotny, I didn't know about it. I had heard however that he was quite the gentleman and was held in high regard by Allied pilots, as demonstrated by that regularly quoted passage by Pierre Clostermann.

 

This is an unpopular opinion, but I never ever saw that Robert Johnson story as a chivalry or particularly honourable one. The Fw-190 pilot saw a crippled P-47 crawling, took a good look at it and proceeded to maul it, gave up because he didn't have any ammo left and presented with the lack of options waved off and went home. Johnson's story is incredible, but I don't think there was any respect or any of the like involved there. It was beating a dead horse which happened to be so sturdy it didn't give in. But again, opinions opinions.

[Gump]

...

 

This is an unpopular opinion, but I never ever saw that Robert Johnson story as a chivalry or particularly honourable one. The Fw-190 pilot saw a crippled P-47 crawling, took a good look at it and proceeded to maul it, gave up because he didn't have any ammo left and presented with the lack of options waved off and went home. Johnson's story is incredible, but I don't think there was any respect or any of the like involved there. It was beating a dead horse which happened to be so sturdy it didn't give in. But again, opinions opinions.

 

I heard the story told the same way.... out of ammo. coincidentally, that german (egon mayer) was eventually killed by a p-47.

.

I thought fern was giving 2 contrasting stories, though, just to show both cases.

[johncage]

i'll drop a sc500 on my own airfield before i engage in stat padding and disreputable behavior. i've stalked and shot to death my own men for hunting parachutes.

[Dave]

In war you generally don't get to say "uncle". If you're out of ammunition, you should have been more conservative. If you're out of fuel, same deal. If your engine is out probably shouldn't have pushed it so hard - you make your choices and you live (or die) with the consequences.

 

If a pilot strafes the run-up area of my airfield and then blows his engine running it at WEP climbing away to safety they shouldn't expect to be spared because they can no longer fight. Likewise, a pilot who benefits from superior energy retention, weapons, climb and the ability to engage and disengage at will shouldn't expect the disadvantaged opponent to simply concede when he has squandered every advantage.

 

But these are generalisations - there are always specifics to consider. Depends how I feel at the time.

[Libel]

Once the target is out of the fight - black smoke, headed home - he's not worth the time, energy or ammunition to chase down. IL-2 still gives the 'kill' once you knock their engine out, so you don't need to go shredding wings and sniping pilots just to make sure the job is done.

Besides, if you're flying to a mission, stick to it. I don't think your escort appreciates you chasing down a lone, smokey Yak-1 while they're being shot up by a group of LaGG-3s with minds set on more bombers to add to their tailfins.

[Dave]

 

 

I'd consider vulching is waiting for enemies above thier base, while strafing is just doing a tactical attack, so to be precise it's more or less strafing what I do, but not vulching.

Speaking completely subjectively , I'd say the anger comes from one side being able to simply climb or run away to safety when things stop going their way, while the other can't such that there is not the same sense of exposure to risk for each side. That said I fully expect people to attack me on the ground. It happens. It can be justified by a few different arguments. I briefly lose my sheet when it happens and then get over it by launching a counter attack - which usually fails miserably

Once the target is out of the fight - black smoke, headed home - he's not worth the time, energy or ammunition to chase down. IL-2 still gives the 'kill' once you knock their engine out, so you don't need to go shredding wings and sniping pilots just to make sure the job is done.

You often do when you are armed with a pair of 7.62mm pea-shooters. When you don't have 600 rounds of 20mm HE you mostly have to go for the pilot kill to score.

[Feathered_IV]

WHAT?!?! ... why i oughta... (j/k)

.

and that was your prerogative, based on your pov. personally, i see no reason to call it honor, sporting, or dishonor, because it really does depend on your point of view...

.

for instance, imho, letting those bombers go just gave an advantage to the opposing team, which endangered the rest of YOUR team that is relying on you to help them win. you could have delayed and discouraged them and therefore defended their target (which was your assumed duty?) if you would have stopped or hindered them. but, that's MY pov, and i do not get offended by you having your own preference, even though you may cause your team to lose ;>/

 

 

Nah, the Red team always wins anyway so it wasn't a biggie.  I know how annoying it is to get coordinated for a flight, only to have someone in the group delayed through connection loss, vulching and the like.  Then have to circle, respawn, reform and whatnot.  These guys had deliberately chosen the most faraway base to enjoy the game their way, unhindered.  Their disappointment and resignation at having to rinse and repeat was almost palpable.  That's why when I told them I wasn't going to interfere they were like, "Really?  Wow, RESPECT".  It was a much better outcome than just jumping on them and spoiling their fun for the sake of it.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Crazy examples of sporting behaviour were common with the Soviet units in the northern front, particularly when it came to claiming.

 

Ivan Gaidenko, 19 GIAP

 

We had a unique rule in our regiment. If a group shot down a plane the victory was attributed to every pilot in the group [that was flying in that sortie]. That's why I have 26 shared victories and only four individual victories. Do you see? We were not hunting individual victories: the main thing was to preserve the lives of one's comrades. Of course, counting shared victories made it look like all our pilots had high tallies, when in fact we didn't shoot down many planes.

 

Or Boris Safonov (72 SAP/2 GSAP) who for some period recommended his pilots can only claim a maximum of one victory per sortie, giving the rest to the wingmen, and once flew over a German base to drop a written invitation to a duel. Safonov appeared at the schedule time and altitude, but (perhaps expectedly) no German showed up. The explanation was simple and reasonable: the risk of a trap being set up was too high, not to mention that despite it presenting a possibility to shoot down Safonov, the latter was a very skilled pilot and the plan could have cost an ace of theirs instead just as easily.

 

Nikolai Golodnikov from the same unit also described what he called the 'Guards' fighting style of blasting a 37mm round in the general direction of the enemy to signal 'fight's on!'.

 

 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Tried flying with honour yesterday. I let a damaged plane go and land. When home to land a d got my ass handed to me by a couple of plane on the ground.

 

The honour is no more

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

Nah, the Red team always wins anyway so it wasn't a biggie.  I know how annoying it is to get coordinated for a flight, only to have someone in the group delayed through connection loss, vulching and the like.  Then have to circle, respawn, reform and whatnot.  These guys had deliberately chosen the most faraway base to enjoy the game their way, unhindered.  Their disappointment and resignation at having to rinse and repeat was almost palpable.  That's why when I told them I wasn't going to interfere they were like, "Really?  Wow, RESPECT".  It was a much better outcome than just jumping on them and spoiling their fun for the sake of it.

That was myself and PartyPooper in the bombers, we were absolutely stunned by the interaction. We were doing a transport formation takeoff and landing so were very little threat.

 

Anyway, it's interactions like this that make the game special, that was a moment I won't forget anytime soon!

 

S!

Edited November 5, 2015 by Sulaco

[BeastyBaiter]

I play to win in any game I play, but I don't bash other players needlessly either. I'll let a crippled plane ditch or provide them a chance to bail. I'll cover a friendly if he has the situation under control instead of joining in for the kill and I'll provide what help I can to a friendly in trouble. I join whichever team needs more players (almost always VVS here). I will vulch, but not excessively and never if there are only a few players or against a heavily outnumbered team. I suppose that counts as reasonably "honorable."

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

At least half of my deaths are while tryin' to help a brother out of a bad situation. I never learn..............

[Cybermat47]

I don't shoot people hanging in the chute, that's it. Every other flying, starting or landing plane represents for me nothing more than a legitimate military target until it has turned into a burning wreckage.

 

Zettman

Agreed. Shooting at chutes is a waste of ammo in my opinion, and I'd be surprised if anyone made an argument for chute-shooting over ypur own territory, which is without a doubt pointless.

[Y-29.Silky]

Agreed. Shooting at chutes is a waste of ammo in my opinion, and I'd be surprised if anyone made an argument for chute-shooting over ypur own territory, which is without a doubt pointless.

 

If an enemy is strafing me/friendlies on the ground and I get in the air, I will full willingly, proudly shoot that enemies parachute if I see him bail out.

What's the difference between turning a defenseless aircraft into burning wreckage vs shooting a parachute? Nothing, no difference. They're both going to die in each situation while being defenseless.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

"Perish yourself but save your comrade", as Suvorov always said. A 19 GIAP Kittyhawk pilot once rammed a 109 to save his squadron leader (Kutakhov I think).

 

Personally that is the highest honour a fighter pilot can have. I always break off an attack to help out someone being fired at if it means I can save a friendly aircraft from going down.

 

Today I was flying in the old Il-2, early series LaGG-3, single player. After intercepting a Ju-88 formation and taking a good mauling from both 109s and gunners I stuck around to help a LaGG pair get rid of two 109s coming from above. I was low, my plane had some holes but to hell with it. One of the LaGG-3s went down burning before I could get nearby, leaving the leader of the pair against two Messers. Instead of killing our hero, the Germans turned on me and let me have it. My plane rattled, a wing was punctured and I saw a horizontal stab fly off. The Soviet flight leader repositioned and gained altitude, meanwhile. When the Germans came to him he had a wider range of options and good speed too. I stayed behind and below so that nobody would try to attack from below. The LaGG had a height and speed advantage so he could dictate from above. Despite being a sitting duck I sticked around and fired whenever someone tried to go low to get in position. Eventually after a failed Yo-yo I helped botch up a Messer came up slow and awkward, taking a hail from the 5-gun Lavochkin. The second Messer disengaged and our LaGG pair went home happy. I could have been toast, but instead putting my plane and v-life on the line made a victory possible.

[Cybermat47]

If an enemy is strafing me/friendlies on the ground and I get in the air, I will full willingly, proudly shoot that enemies parachute if I see him bail out.

What's the difference between turning a defenseless aircraft into burning wreckage vs shooting a parachute? Nothing, no difference. They're both going to die in each situation while being defenseless.

Actually, there is a pretty big difference. A plane on the ground can take off and make your life very short (even if it's landing). A man/woman in a parachute is no threat to you at all, and killing them won't give your team victory, therefore you're wasting ammo by shooting them. Plus, aiming for a chute gives any other aircraft in the area the perfect oppurtunity to get on your six.

 

As for vulching, I've been vulched loads of times. But I don't get angry or anything. I just admire the execution. This is just a video game, after all. The only issues I have with vulching are when it's done to the same player multiple times.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Cybermat47

[Reflected]

Strafing chutes and wreckages is lame, but quite realistic. Then again, as mentioned above it puts the strafer in a dangerous position.

 

Many a Hungarian pilot died being strafed by Mustangs / Lightnings on their chute or after belly landing. It was the exception, not the rule, but I'm sure every nation had such immoral individuals, no need to go into finger pointing discussions.

 

"Honor" is irrelevant if the mission is designed properly.

[Cybermat47]

It was the exception, not the rule, but I'm sure every nation had such immoral individuals, no need to go into finger pointing discussions.

Agreed 100%.

[Y-29.Silky]

Actually, there is a pretty big difference. A plane on the ground can take off and make your life very short (even if it's landing). A man/woman in a parachute is no threat to you at all, and killing them won't give your team victory, therefore you're wasting ammo by shooting them. Plus, aiming for a chute gives any other aircraft in the area the perfect oppurtunity to get on your six.

 

As for vulching, I've been vulched loads of times. But I don't get angry or anything. I just admire the execution. This is just a video game, after all. The only issues I have with vulching are when it's done to the same player multiple times.

 

>  Actually, there is a pretty big difference.

Dude...

 

> A plane on the ground can take off and make your life very short (even if it's landing).

Two people dogfighting in the air, flight simulator working as intended and if he takes off and shoots you down, it means he got the better of you, "S!".

A plane on his landing approach with gears down is no threat at all.

 

> A man/woman in a parachute is no threat to you at all,

A damaged aircraft trying to get away to belly land is no threat to you at all. 

 

>wasting ammo by shooting them

Wasting ammo by shooting an aircraft trying to get away to belly land.

 

> aiming for a chute gives any other aircraft in the area the perfect oppurtunity to get on your six.

Aiming for a damaged aircraft who's trying to get away to belly land gives any other aircraft in the area the perfect opportunity to get on your six.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[Gump]

"immoral" to shoot a pilot hanging in the chute? i hear the polish pilots would kill german parachuters as a rule. do you know why? do you know what the german army did in poland? all sides shot parachuters at one time or another, and all sides let some go. it's very hard to judge what "honor" is without knowing all the factors and thoughts.

...for instance, that johnson p47/mayer fw190 story... mayer bailed out of planes 4 times, only to go right back to the luftwaffe (required) and ended up with 100 victories before he was killed. he was killed attacking bombers (which one would call honorable: trying to save his fellow citizens from being blown to pieces and country ruined)... so, if someone had killed him in the chute, they would have saved many allied lives and assisted allied directives, possibly ending germany's war a little earlier (saving even more allies and germans).

..i know its a personal call, and id probably tend towards mercy, but it would be hard to know what "mercy" is sometimes.

 

..but in video games killing a pilot does not stop him from flying again. respawn and all is well again. so, no point in shooting chutes? i dont need to, but consider this...

 

...i used to think it was unsporting ("honor" is a strong word for a video game unless describing cheating) to shoot landing, crippled or parachutes, but competitors for statistics not only need to consider their own positives/negatives, but any other pilots' scores. if deaths are a negative, it makes perfect sense for a pilot to try and add to the 'negatives' (deaths) of the competition. so a mere pov makes a difference in behavior. i 'might' say that this is 'only' because it's a video game, but i think IRL may have been somewhat similar.

.

regarding vulchers, i havent seen a time yet when the vulcher didnt become hunted. vulching is not a safe sport for the vulcher.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Gump

[Cybermat47]

 > A plane on the ground can take off and make your life very short (even if it's landing).Two people dogfighting in the air, flight simulator working as intended and if he takes off and shoots you down, it means he got the better of you, "S!".

A plane on his landing approach with gears down is no threat at all.

I like to play as realistically as I can, and there's no way that a pilot would let an enemy aircraft get in the air.

 

If I was landing, and an enemy aircraft turned up, I'd raise my flaps and gear, and gain altitude so I wouldn't be an easy target. I'd expect others to do the same.

 

> A man/woman in a parachute is no threat to you at all,

A damaged aircraft trying to get away to belly land is no threat to you at all. 

 

>wasting ammo by shooting them

Wasting ammo by shooting an aircraft trying to get away to belly land.

 

> aiming for a chute gives any other aircraft in the area the perfect oppurtunity to get on your six.

Aiming for a damaged aircraft who's trying to get away to belly land gives any other aircraft in the area the perfect opportunity to get on your six.

Nobody said anything about belly landing. I don't shoot at aircraft that have made it clear that they're going to belly land. That would be a waste of ammo and make me vulnerable.

[MarmadukePattle]

In real life if you let the enemy live another day he will come back and kill you. There is" No honour in war." Your job is to kill or be killed, end of story.  About 20 + - million people died in WW2 and we only hear of a handful honour stories.

There is no honour in war, so shoot the sucker down.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

(Not on topic, but just a correction: WW2 death toll sits between 50 and 80+ million, depending on the criteria and such)

Edited November 6, 2015 by Lucas_From_Hell

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Yup, 20 million is the rough count for combat (soldiers, sailors, airmen, merchant marine, etc). The civilian populations paid a much higher price overall.

Edited November 6, 2015 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[LLv24_Zami]

(Not on topic, but just a correction: WW2 death toll sits between 50 and 80+ million, depending on the criteria and such)

Yeah, it`s awful, no glory in the real war. No honor.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Zami

[Gump]

In real life if you let the enemy live another day he will come back and kill you. There is" No honour in war." Your job is to kill or be killed, end of story.  About 20 + - million people died in WW2 and we only hear of a handful honour stories.

There is no honour in war, so shoot the sucker down.

.

im reminded of "saving private ryan", where that lesson is described.

[Finkeren]

.

im reminded of "saving private ryan", where that lesson is described.

Except that movie pretty much pretends that hardly any civilians exist in combat zones,

[vx111vx111swift]

If you do not kill him. He will be back to kill you. Simple truth....

[johncage]

principles are things which do not go away even if the [Edited] hits the fan. needless to say, most men do not have principles. despite all the ego swaggering and self professed "morality" people pretend to adhere.

[Finkeren]

As animals we have one principle hard-wired into our brains: Self preservation. But contrary to what many people seem to think, this does not make us merciless killers in a war environment, it actually often does the opposite. If you have an enemy who's either fleeing or cornered, most people would not be eager to rush in and kill them. A desperate foe is extremely dangerous, and the fight is basically won, so your instincts will be trying very hard to not get you into another fight to the death.

 

That's what's really ahistorical about the way we fight online: The relentless pursuit of fleeing or damaged aircraft. That very seldom happened IRL. Pursuits were generally short and certainly didn't go all the way back to the enemy air base, as we see far too often.

 

If your enemy is fleeing, you've won the fight by denying him airspace. That is the essense of warfare: To deny the enemy space to operate. Killing or incapacitating comes second.

[Sunde]

Snip" To deny the enemy space to operate. Killing or incapacitating comes second."snip 

Probably a lot of truth to what you just said, but in all honesty, when i jump into an online server in BOS - which is a game. I dont give a damn about air space, im there to have fun, and for me (and a lot of others i guess) 

That means doing crazy ass maneuvers and shooting at stuff. 

If someone gets offended because i shot off their wing when i had already damaged their engine, well they better get used to it. The only thing i'd never do in game is shooting at a parachute. 

Each to his own i guess. 

 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

It's interesting how many different perspectives to virtual warfare are here

 

I'm with Finkeren all the way on this one: if the mission is complete, that's that. A "mission kill", in proper terms. When looking at WW2 generals at work, Zhukov for one would probably have told you to keep the enemy alive at all costs and instead make him either bail or ditch over our lines so he can interrogate our new 'friend' and gather some intelligence from him.

[Finkeren]

Probably a lot of truth to what you just said, but in all honesty, when i jump into an online server in BOS - which is a game. I dont give a damn about air space, im there to have fun, and for me (and a lot of others i guess)

That means doing crazy ass maneuvers and shooting at stuff.

If someone gets offended because i shot off their wing when i had already damaged their engine, well they better get used to it. The only thing i'd never do in game is shooting at a parachute.

Each to his own i guess.

 

I actually agree with you. The reason I brought it up is because people were using the argument that "it's a war, forget about honor" but this precisely is not war, we're all just playing a game.

[DeafBee]

I remember back when everyone played 1946, the majority of pilots had honor. I was dogfighting in a P-51 vs 3 Bf-109's for a long time; twisting, turning, going under bridges, they finally shot me up and my engine was dying. I wasn't combat effective so I turned my navigation lights on and every single one of them disengaged while I crash landed.

 

That is how everyone has fun.

 

Now? There's no more honor in the IL-2 community. Everyone has the damn War Thunder syndrome where they make pass after pass until they see the enemy going down in a ball of fire. Which is stupid in my opinion as you're wasting ammo and altitude on an already dead aircraft. Secondly, there's the Cliffs of Dover syndrome where airfield camping is 90% of the gameplay, and time to time you get someone strafing everyone on the ground. Yes it happened in real life, but this is a game.

 

And a little off topic but for those who say there was no honor on the Eastern Front is wrong. I read a piece by Vasily Grossman...

 

"Murashev and medical orderly Zaitsev had been sentenced to be executed. Murashev for shooting himself through the hand, the other, because he had killed a famous pilot, who was coming down by parachute from a shot-up aircraft. Execution was commuted for both of them. And now they are both the best snipers in Stalingrad."

 

Contrary to what happened to regular soldiers, the Russians respected people with great skills.

 

You of all people are talking about "honor" Silky? I had the "pleasure" today you calling me all kind of names, (which I will not write on this forum), just because I straffed your Stuka on the Wings Of Liberty server. (Which I thought was parked AI planes by the way). 

 

If you want to bring up honor, maybe should try to behave as such starting with your manners.   

 

And last and not least YOU were breaking the rules on the server not me, by swearing and posting vulgar words towards me. 

Edited November 7, 2015 by 19te.Deafbee

[Y-29.Silky]

You of all people are talking about "honor" Silky? I had the "pleasure" today you calling me all kind of names, (which I will not write on this forum), just because I straffed your Stuka on the Wings Of Liberty server. (Which I thought was parked AI planes by the way). 

 

If you want to bring up honor, maybe should try to behave as such starting with your manners.   

 

And last and not least YOU were breaking the rules on the server not me, by swearing and posting vulgar words towards me. 

 

Please don't translate general frustrated swearing into name calling to act like I was an evil bully towards you.

Passing up all the objectives, objectives that were being attacked, just to go to the enemy airfield to shoot parked AI?

You were strafing Stuka's who were just spawning in and did not even have their engines started with your fighter. If you were in an IL-2 or Pe-2 it would have been a different story.

It's when people do that, I have no problem shooting parachutes.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[Y-29.Silky]

Nobody said anything about belly landing. I don't shoot at aircraft that have made it clear that they're going to belly land. That would be a waste of ammo and make me vulnerable.

 

"Getting away" to belly land, is more my point and the general state of being combat ineffective. Friday Night..

Honor

Flying He-111, =FB= Arhangel makes passes tearing me up good. I had to drop my bombs early calling off the bombing run turning away with massive engine leaks. He received credit for the kill while I was still flying and engines running.  He disengaged and soon received credit for the kill and allowed me to "get away".  He didn't send me down like a Michael Bay movie in his initial pass which is lucky on my part and he didn't go out of the way to do so.

I was still flying but was combat ineffective, he did his job by foiling the bombing run and got credit for his kill.

 

That's a piece of honor.

Then this happened.

Soon after my engines died to a glide behind enemy lines. I turned on my nav lights and was smoking like a chimney until some random enemy made a pass on me. Typed in all chat that someone already shot down, thought it'd be obvious with 2 dead engines, but he continued and accidentally rammed me killing us both. Even if my engines were not dead, I wasn't making it back and someone already got credit for the kill. There's no reason to make passes. Thankfully there's a good anti-kill steal system in this game.

 

To the people who say "Well, in real life.."

This is a video game. Every dead pilot magically comes back to life and every aircraft magically gets resupplied the next round.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Y-29.Silky

[Cybermat47]

Then this happened.

Soon after my engines died to a glide behind enemy lines. I turned on my nav lights and was smoking like a chimney until some random enemy made a pass on me. Typed in all chat that someone already shot down, thought it'd be obvious with 2 dead engines, but he continued and accidentally rammed me killing us both. Even if my engines were not dead, I wasn't making it back and someone already got credit for the kill. There's no reason to make passes. Thankfully there's a good anti-kill steal system in this game.

 

To the people who say "Well, in real life.."

This is a video game. Every dead pilot magically comes back to life and every aircraft magically gets resupplied the next round.

I certainly agree that the other player's behaviour was rude. Certainly not the sort of behaviour I'd engage in, especially as you made it clear that you were already shot down.

[DeafBee]

Please don't translate general frustrated swearing into name calling to act like I was an evil bully towards you.

Passing up all the objectives, objectives that were being attacked, just to go to the enemy airfield to shoot parked AI?

You were strafing Stuka's who were just spawning in and did not even have their engines started with your fighter. If you were in an IL-2 or Pe-2 it would have been a different story.

It's when people do that, I have no problem shooting parachutes.

 

Frustration will forever follow you, if you think the world will change according to what you believe is right.   

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

This portion of the thread is probably better served as a series of PM's between you. It was intended as more of a philosophical discussion.