Post your outrageous Sherman Hit Stats here

[ShampooX]

Fin

 

 

Finnish Server in a PZIV.  Range:1300 meter.  The target was tracked and had it's rear facing me.  7 shots to kill defeat 13-38mm of armor.  the PzGr39 should be able to do this all day long in a single shot.

 

UPdate - maybe this might be the problem.  The IL-2 Ballistics info for the PZIV-G on the github site states:

 

"7.5 cm Pzgr. 39 armor piercing high explosive (APHE): 6.8 kg, 750 m/s, 104 mm at 500 m."

 

But the Wikipedia referenced site for the cannon type typically mounted on the 4G in 1943 (the L43 version) states for the PZGR39 round this:

 

 

So what I thought was happening in the game is that the ballistic calculations for the Sherman, and probably all tanks, are taken off the github published data (at 500m) and then extrapolated based on the distance to target.  You can see clearly from the referenced material that the while the initial 500m penetration might be less than what IL-2 is factoring, the penetrations are clearly deeper over longer distances. 

 

BUT THEN, I went back and read the github data until the end and found out this about the PZGR39:

 

"When fired from a 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/48 gun:
Muzzle velocity 750 m/s, armour penetration at point blank range 117 mm.
500 m: armour penetration 104 mm, velocity 691 m/s, drop -2.4 m.
1000 m: armour penetration 92 mm, velocity 636 m/s, drop -10.0 m.
2000 m: armour penetration 72 mm, velocity 537 m/s, drop -44.8 m."

 

SO NOW WHAT?  Well, in the case of the Sherman example above, at 1300 meters I was firing a shell that had probably around 80mm of penetration against armor 13 to 38 mm thick - and this is by IL-2's own ballistic data.  And if you look at the L48 data in the Wiki grid above, I  think we can all agree that IL-2's PZ4's are using the later version of the 7.5 Cannon......which means the Sherman should even have less of a chance of a 7-shot kill like the one above.  Please note the Wiki grid above assumes a 30 degree target armor slope - pretty close to the Sherman even though in my example above I was facing the flat back and flat turret sides.

 

anyway, it's been fun researching this but it all comes down to a simple fact.  No Sherman, in real life or in this game, should ever be able to absorb 6 or 7 hits from a 7.5/PZGR39 and keep going without some kind of major gas fire, ammo rack or completely broken crew. 

 

One last thought: I anyone who plays the PZ4 regularily knows it's frontal armor is about as useful as a down blanket and this is probably due mainly to it's lack of slope.  and, we all know it is consistently one-shotted from all angles.  Yet, the Sherman has only 1MM more of frontal armor than the PZ4, but is somehow able to withstand volley after volley.  I mean, if the Sherman was that good, why did they need to up armor it all the time?  LOL it was already bouncing shots like a Tiger.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Shampoo_Actual
updated info

[Lofte]

You better post a track or a video to see where exactly did you hit Sherman. "Rear facing" is pretty vague thing...

[Cybermat47]

Can you recreate this in singleplayer? A lot of issues in multiplayer can be attributed to connection issues rather than the game itself.

[Wolfpack345]

16 hours ago, Shampoo_Actual said:

Fin

 

 

Finnish Server in a PZIV.  Range:1300 meter.  The target was tracked and had it's rear facing me.  7 shots to kill defeat 13-38mm of armor.  the PzGr39 should be able to do this all day long in a single shot.

I do not look at the Finnish stats all that often so I am not sure how exactly they read. You said you fired 7 rounds at this guy but it looks like it was only 5. How did you fire 2 rounds at 22:43:39? This happens again at 22:43:52. So instead of 7 rounds it was 5. Still not great I agree. I am willing to bet though the tank was largely inoperable before you fired the killing shot. (Where I assume the tank exploded) 

I was playing in the Panzer 4 earlier and I really did not have the same problems killing Sherman as you seem to. I did notice explosions on the Sherman seem less common however when going back in the tracks the crew generally bailed out long before I was confident the tank was destroyed. 

 

Every tank can be frustrating to kill depending on the circumstances. I have been in a T-34 and it seems a Pz4 will take way to many rounds from the side or rear. It is super frustrating and that is what you remember. The kills that were easy don't stick to with you. 

Looking at your sortie log it seems the first Sherman you killed was pretty much inoperable immediately. 

 

I think a lot of this can come down to it just being multiplayer. Multiplayer can be erratic especially if there are a lot of people online.

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Wolfpack345

[LachenKrieg]

On 5/31/2021 at 9:27 PM, Shampoo_Actual said:

Fin

 

 

Finnish Server in a PZIV.  Range:1300 meter.  The target was tracked and had it's rear facing me.  7 shots to kill defeat 13-38mm of armor.  the PzGr39 should be able to do this all day long in a single shot.

 

UPdate - maybe this might be the problem.  The IL-2 Ballistics info for the PZIV-G on the github site states:

 

"7.5 cm Pzgr. 39 armor piercing high explosive (APHE): 6.8 kg, 750 m/s, 104 mm at 500 m."

 

But the Wikipedia referenced site for the cannon type typically mounted on the 4G in 1943 (the L43 version) states for the PZGR39 round this:

 

 

So what I thought was happening in the game is that the ballistic calculations for the Sherman, and probably all tanks, are taken off the github published data (at 500m) and then extrapolated based on the distance to target.  You can see clearly from the referenced material that the while the initial 500m penetration might be less than what IL-2 is factoring, the penetrations are clearly deeper over longer distances. 

 

BUT THEN, I went back and read the github data until the end and found out this about the PZGR39:

 

"When fired from a 7.5 cm KwK 40 L/48 gun:
Muzzle velocity 750 m/s, armour penetration at point blank range 117 mm.
500 m: armour penetration 104 mm, velocity 691 m/s, drop -2.4 m.
1000 m: armour penetration 92 mm, velocity 636 m/s, drop -10.0 m.
2000 m: armour penetration 72 mm, velocity 537 m/s, drop -44.8 m."

 

SO NOW WHAT?  Well, in the case of the Sherman example above, at 1300 meters I was firing a shell that had probably around 80mm of penetration against armor 13 to 38 mm thick - and this is by IL-2's own ballistic data.  And if you look at the L48 data in the Wiki grid above, I  think we can all agree that IL-2's PZ4's are using the later version of the 7.5 Cannon......which means the Sherman should even have less of a chance of a 7-shot kill like the one above.  Please note the Wiki grid above assumes a 30 degree target armor slope - pretty close to the Sherman even though in my example above I was facing the flat back and flat turret sides.

 

anyway, it's been fun researching this but it all comes down to a simple fact.  No Sherman, in real life or in this game, should ever be able to absorb 6 or 7 hits from a 7.5/PZGR39 and keep going without some kind of major gas fire, ammo rack or completely broken crew. 

 

One last thought: I anyone who plays the PZ4 regularily knows it's frontal armor is about as useful as a down blanket and this is probably due mainly to it's lack of slope.  and, we all know it is consistently one-shotted from all angles.  Yet, the Sherman has only 1MM more of frontal armor than the PZ4, but is somehow able to withstand volley after volley.  I mean, if the Sherman was that good, why did they need to up armor it all the time?  LOL it was already bouncing shots like a Tiger.

 

 

Something else to consider is that distance doesn't only affect gun performance, it can also work against armor. If both the gun and the armor plate are on relatively level ground, then the elevation correction used by the gunner to compensate for distance may help penetration if the shell trajectory reduces the contact angle with the armor plate.

 

Does anyone know why the report shows two damage figures in the same time period? Does it represent different damage to different mechanical systems?

Edited June 2, 2021 by LachenKrieg

[Jet46]

22 hours ago, Wolfpack345 said:

I do not look at the Finnish stats all that often so I am not sure how exactly they read. You said you fired 7 rounds at this guy but it looks like it was only 5. How did you fire 2 rounds at 22:43:39? This happens again at 22:43:52. So instead of 7 rounds it was 5. Still not great I agree. I am willing to bet though the tank was largely inoperable before you fired the killing shot. (Where I assume the tank exploded) 

I was playing in the Panzer 4 earlier and I really did not have the same problems killing Sherman as you seem to. I did notice explosions on the Sherman seem less common however when going back in the tracks the crew generally bailed out long before I was confident the tank was destroyed. 

 

Every tank can be frustrating to kill depending on the circumstances. I have been in a T-34 and it seems a Pz4 will take way to many rounds from the side or rear. It is super frustrating and that is what you remember. The kills that were easy don't stick to with you. 

Looking at your sortie log it seems the first Sherman you killed was pretty much inoperable immediately. 

 

I think a lot of this can come down to it just being multiplayer. Multiplayer can be erratic especially if there are a lot of people online.

 

I was the player in the Sherman I was mostly operational for the duration of the time I was being shot at.

[Wolfpack345]

4 hours ago, Jet46 said:

I was the player in the Sherman I was mostly operational for the duration of the time I was being shot at.

I have to admit that is quite surprising. Was the engine on by chance? No fires or anything? 

 

[Jet46]

6 hours ago, Wolfpack345 said:

I have to admit that is quite surprising. Was the engine on by chance? No fires or anything? 

 

I turned it off after I had been hit once or twice since my track had been knocked out. I do not recall being set on fire.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Jet46

[ShampooX]

To be fair yesterday I deleted a Sherman frontally from about 300m with a single shot on Finnish. 

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Same here, 3 today with no issues. In december I killed 6 of them on same mission with one shot each. Damage model seem to want to work at times and sometimes dont. Noticed my ping made my shot miss but sitll hit so could be pin related in some cases for me.

[JG1_Wittmann]

I have had the same situation, as have alot of us on multiplayer  where you kill their gunner according to the stat page and then later on he kills you.   Simply an information lag issue and does not point to a damage model error.   I think a damage model error can only be seen in single player where there should be zero lag.   The mission I got killed 12 seconds after the logs show I killed his gunner and commander, was an engagement that started with 3 shermans.    I took out 2 of them at 2100M. The third slipped into the trees, I re-positioned when I lost sight and waited, then nailed him from closer range, @ 1000m.   That's when the error happened.  Now I'm going to assume his connection was the problem and not mine because the other 2 died from my shots easily.   This kind of delay is way more noticeable in tank combat when it should often be a 1 shot kill, unlike an Aircraft.   We don't get those often flying German due to the error in modelling of the 30mm mine rounds which the the devs ignore.  So you expect it to take alot more hits.   You will often see messages about outdated hit on "X" player and that's down to lag.   I just happen to think now, from my own logs, that playing from steam makes those errors happen more often

[Angry_Kitten]

On 6/1/2021 at 9:45 AM, Cybermat47 said:

Can you recreate this in singleplayer? A lot of issues in multiplayer can be attributed to connection issues rather than the game itself.

 

Is there a way to actually determine what happens in multi player versus the single player game?  Im starting to wonder if ammunition stats are different in multi player as with the 50 bmg some who feel it works as expected in SP  believe its not working as they WANT tit to in multi player. 

 

 

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, pocketshaver said:

Im starting to wonder if ammunition stats are different in multi player as with the 50 bmg some who feel it works as expected in SP  believe its not working as they WANT tit to in multi player.

 

Nope, it's the same ammo in both MP and SP.

[Angry_Kitten]

12 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Nope, it's the same ammo in both MP and SP.

 

 

Is there a way to track what areas of the target actually get HIT by the projectiles?

[JG27_Steini]

8 minutes ago, pocketshaver said:

 

 

Is there a way to track what areas of the target actually get HIT by the projectiles?

 

Currently is only tracked how many damage a projectile did, not where. Would probably open to much room for speculations about the DM model.

[Angry_Kitten]

7 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

Currently is only tracked how many damage a projectile did, not where. Would probably open to much room for speculations about the DM model.

I used to play a video game in the late 90s early 2000s that had a problem that if you were fighting a mech unit and your ultimate rocket hit a barrel the rocket would blow the barrel, and the mech unit would never take damage from it.