Beyond the Rhineland

[Jackfraser24]

Hi all

I just want to ask a question

What if Great Battles continued with the invasion of Germany with the Allies from where Battle of Bodenplatte finished off in April 1945 until the final fall of the Third Reich in early May?

Meanwhile the Soviets will advance from the Vistula to the Oder, and ultimately Berlin, ending the war in Europe, meeting the British, Americans and other Allied armies that fought on the Western front. 

This hypothetical installment could include:

• The final chapter to the IL2 Great Battles Chronology in the European Theatre
• The Battle of Berlin and the fall of Nazi Germany
• Sonderkommando Elbe
• The Ju 88 Mistel deployment
• Late war German, Soviet, British and American aircraft, AFVs, artillery, ground vehicles, etc. 
• The last operations of the Luftwaffe, Red Air Force, RAF and USAAF in World War 2 Europe

 

[AndytotheD]

This would be difficult to do, mainly cause we're running out of German planes. I'd love to see it all the same though. As far as I'm aware the only sim to have done it was the old IL2. 

 

My shortlist would be as follows:

- Fw 190A-9

- Bf 109G-10

- Fw 190D-11/13 (premium; I can't remember off the top of my head but there was a very small number of either made and I personally have my suspicions that the D-11s were often misidentified as D-13s and vice versa).

- Ta 152H-1

- He 162A-2

 

Soviet aircraft on the other hand would be a no-brainer:

- Il-2 late

- Il-10 (premium)

- La-7

- Yak-3

- Tu-2

 

[Stonehouse]

Wouldn't it be hard to make enjoyable campaigns and missions historically accurate in that time period?

 

To a large degree after April 1945 the Luftwaffe had ceased to really be a problem due to skilled pilot losses in Bodenplatte, fuel shortages, Allied air superiority and attacks on anywhere the Luftwaffe set up a base of operations - if I recall rightly they were moving at the end of each day to a new temporary field or even flying out of somewhere in the morning and being diverted on return from an operation to somewhere new for the afternoon and then moving again at night and the mechanics etc were pretty much on the road 24/7. It was only the hidden bases on autobahns etc that hung around for any length of time until they were discovered,attacked and closed down or overrun. There were a few units of remaining experten that got better machines and supply but as I recall - perhaps wrongly - by May 1945 most of the Luftwaffe were  virtually untrained, very new pilots in aircraft that often had issues with manufacturing quality in units suffering from extreme fatigue from continuous operations and constant base relocations and low supplies and most of these pilots were lucky to survive their first mission. 

I agree there were some interesting aircraft in that time frame but I just don't see how it would work. 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by No457_Stonehouse

[Jackfraser24]

Thanks for that information both of you. 

[oc2209]

28 minutes ago, AndytotheD said:

My shortlist would be as follows:

- Fw 190A-9

- Bf 109G-10

- Fw 190D-11/13 (premium; I can't remember off the top of my head but there was a very small number of either made and I personally have my suspicions that the D-11s were often misidentified as D-13s and vice versa).

- Ta 152H-1

- He 162A-2

 

Soviet aircraft on the other hand would be a no-brainer:

- Il-2 late

- Il-10 (premium)

- La-7

- Yak-3

- Tu-2

 

 

Good list, but I'd remove the 190D and replace it with a variant of the Ju-88 or Do-something. Otherwise there are too many single engine fighters in the German lineup. Granted, the Germans weren't using twin-engine bombers for much at that point in the war, but lineup balance is kind of a factor.

 

Likewise, I'd also replace the IL-2 with a Yak-9U. No reason to have 2 ground attack planes on one side in the same package, and the IL-10 would be the better choice to include. I'd also make the 9U the premium of the Russian side.

 

1 hour ago, Jackfraser24 said:

Meanwhile the Soviets will advance from the Vistula to the Oder, and ultimately Berlin, ending the war in Europe, meeting the British, Americans and other Allied armies that fought on the Western front.

 

It will never happen in this series (because it shouldn't in a realism-focused sim), but I've always wanted an alt-history Berlin map where you could fly careers for all sides, and it'd be a brawl between the UK/US, Germany, and Russia. The premise would be that West/East relations broke down catastrophically just before Germany was defeated. A small slice of unconquered German territory would stand between Russia and the Western Allies. It would in essence be WWIII, just skipped over the Cold War part entirely. Realistically it'd be absurd, but it'd be a fun way to use all the assets already made, and I'm sure it'd be a multiplayer hit.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

48 minutes ago, No457_Stonehouse said:

To a large degree after April 1945 the Luftwaffe had ceased to really be a problem due to skilled pilot losses in Bodenplatte, fuel shortages, Allied air superiority and attacks on anywhere the Luftwaffe set up a base of operations

Well, IIRC, the situation was somewhat better on the east front with the Luftwaffe still flying hundreds of flights every day and the Soviets never quite achieving the same level of air superiority their Western counterparts enjoyed.

 

That said, I do agree that the German plane set would be a problem, as beyond a couple of obscure types all late-war aircraft are in the sim already.

[Dragon1-1]

3 hours ago, oc2209 said:

It will never happen in this series (because it shouldn't in a realism-focused sim), but I've always wanted an alt-history Berlin map where you could fly careers for all sides, and it'd be a brawl between the UK/US, Germany, and Russia. The premise would be that West/East relations broke down catastrophically just before Germany was defeated. A small slice of unconquered German territory would stand between Russia and the Western Allies. It would in essence be WWIII, just skipped over the Cold War part entirely. Realistically it'd be absurd, but it'd be a fun way to use all the assets already made, and I'm sure it'd be a multiplayer hit.

Sounds almost like early Korean War.  It was more or less exactly that, US and Soviets (by proxy), having fallen out after the war, duking it out using late and immedietely post-WWII equipment. Besides the MiG-15 and the Sabrejet, very little of the latest equipment was used in that war.

[zan64]

On 5/25/2021 at 11:35 AM, No457_Stonehouse said:

Wouldn't it be hard to make enjoyable campaigns and missions historically accurate in that time period?

 

To a large degree after April 1945 the Luftwaffe had ceased to really be a problem due to skilled pilot losses in Bodenplatte, fuel shortages, Allied air superiority and attacks on anywhere the Luftwaffe set up a base of operations - if I recall rightly they were moving at the end of each day to a new temporary field or even flying out of somewhere in the morning and being diverted on return from an operation to somewhere new for the afternoon and then moving again at night and the mechanics etc were pretty much on the road 24/7. It was only the hidden bases on autobahns etc that hung around for any length of time until they were discovered,attacked and closed down or overrun. There were a few units of remaining experten that got better machines and supply but as I recall - perhaps wrongly - by May 1945 most of the Luftwaffe were  virtually untrained, very new pilots in aircraft that often had issues with manufacturing quality in units suffering from extreme fatigue from continuous operations and constant base relocations and low supplies and most of these pilots were lucky to survive their first mission. 

I agree there were some interesting aircraft in that time frame but I just don't see how it would work. 

 

 

i dont doubt the collapse on the western front but i was under the impression that the luftwaffe pretty active in the battle of berlin/oder–neisse using the types being described

On 5/25/2021 at 12:19 PM, oc2209 said:

 

It will never happen in this series (because it shouldn't in a realism-focused sim), but I've always wanted an alt-history Berlin map where you could fly careers for all sides, and it'd be a brawl between the UK/US, Germany, and Russia. The premise would be that West/East relations broke down catastrophically just before Germany was defeated. A small slice of unconquered German territory would stand between Russia and the Western Allies. It would in essence be WWIII, just skipped over the Cold War part entirely. Realistically it'd be absurd, but it'd be a fun way to use all the assets already made, and I'm sure it'd be a multiplayer hit.

i was thinking the other day is they did an "il2-1946 2" using great battles, the 'Aplenfestung' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Fortress  in the alps of southern Bavaria would be a unique map. Would be an alt-history thing where the nazis did go ahead with their plans of using a natinal redoubt in the Alps and through the power of fiction had maintained their resistence there through underground factories and airfields and whatever. But like you said I dont think the player base would want that, but multiplayer with moutains to hide in, P-80s going head to head with Ho229s, and paradrops in ravines and the like would be a blast

Edited May 31, 2021 by Esel_kong

[spreckair]

I wouldn't mind expansions that focused on integrated maps, even if there were fewer or no additional aircraft (not that I oppose new aircraft by any means!).  This give mission builders more room to create interesting and historical missions.  

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

If we don't do Berlin for the Soviet 44-45 module and instead do Budapest or Courland, it creates room for a 1946-a-like with all the aircraft that were in service but never quite showed up in big numbers: P-47M, Meteor, Il-10, He 162, Ta 152, that sort of thing. Last two or three months of the war with a map across Northern Germany and Allied aircraft turning up from both ends. This also opens up the possibility of multiplayer servers or custom campaigns doing Unthinkable 1946, which would be an interesting diversion from the norm.

[Mtnbiker1998]

3 hours ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

If we don't do Berlin for the Soviet 44-45 module and instead do Budapest or Courland, it creates room for a 1946-a-like with all the aircraft that were in service but never quite showed up in big numbers: P-47M, Meteor, Il-10, He 162, Ta 152, that sort of thing. Last two or three months of the war with a map across Northern Germany and Allied aircraft turning up from both ends. This also opens up the possibility of multiplayer servers or custom campaigns doing Unthinkable 1946, which would be an interesting diversion from the norm.

Throw in a P-51H and they've got my money for sure on a 1946-a-like

[DD_Arthur]

Han has repeatedly said they will not be doing any “what ifs”.

[PatrickAWlson]

I would not mind seeing Berlin an unbalanced plane set with more Russian than German.  

 

I also think it would be an interesting SP career mode scenario for the LW.  German pilots did fly right up until the last days of the war,  You would be in a unit luck enough to have a bit of fuel.

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

On 10/4/2021 at 7:22 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

You would be in a unit luck enough to have a bit of fuel.

What sort of luck is it to be able to climb into your 109 and do pointless battle with vast hordes of marauding Allied aircraft instead of getting to sit quietly in a slit trench for a couple of weeks and then surrender? ?

[Hoss]

Sicily, Italy, Corsica..............  More Italian planes, and flyable B-25 Catch-22 campaign.....Greece?..............  Radio controlled German weapons from He-111...............  Or the Crimea... still not happy with Kuban map stopping at Kerch... keep going West............  to Sevastopol................  Su-2, Tu-2, IL-4.....Torpedoes.....  Fw-189... Do-17, 217.

 

Okay..............

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by 352nd_Hoss