Great Battles Future Third Party Collector Planes

[Jackfraser24]

Hi everyone 

I would just like to point out that there are no German bombers, dive bombers or aircraft built solely for attack later than 1943. I know this issue can be tackled with aircraft like the Arado 234, Ju 88 C6 and Me 410 from Battle of Normandy, but what about later versions of the Ju 87 and Ju 88, as well as the Ju 188, Ju 388 (I knew only very few were built) the Do 217, late versions of the He 111 (especially the H 22 which carried the Fi 103 flying bomb) maybe the He 177? 

These are just some suggestions to put out there

 

Edited October 13, 2024 by Jackfraser24

[LukeFF]

It's been discussed here quite a bit.  

[Jackfraser24]

He 111 P Series Should Be Done

 

The He 111 P series were essentially He 111 H’s however they had Daimler Benz DB 601 engines instead of Junker Jumo 211 engines. 
 

It was mass produced, with 834 He 111 P’s coming off the assembly lines. Nine production sub variants were designed (P-1 to 9) however, only the P-1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 9 went ahead. The P-1, 2, 4 and 6 were used in combat while the P-3 and 5 were dual control trainer aircraft. The P-9 was also intended as an export version to Hungary for combat duty, however it was used only by the Luftwaffe as tow-craft. 

 

Production was switched to the He 111 H variant, since there were not enough DB 601 engines to sustain both He 111 P and Bf 109 production, and fighters.

 

The He 111 P series should be added into the German aircraft inventory.

• Since the He 111 H is in the game and the DB 601 engine has been included into the Bf 109, the developers wouldn’t have much trouble adding the two together and making minor alterations to the He 111 H-6 base model. Weapons systems shouldn’t be too hard to research and model. 
• The P series was used on the Eastern front with the Hungarians, right from the start of Operation Barbarossa to at least July 1942.
• The P series could be used around Moscow and Stalingrad by Hungary and the Luftwaffe.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Jackfraser24

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Jackfraser24 said:

He 111 P Series Should Be Done

 

The He 111 P series were essentially He 111 H’s however they had Daimler Benz DB 601 engines instead of Junker Jumo 211 engines. 
 

It was mass produced, with 834 He 111 P’s coming off the assembly lines. Nine production sub variants were designed (P-1 to 9) however, only the P-1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 9 went ahead. The P-1, 2, 4 and 6 were used in combat while the P-3 and 5 were dual control trainer aircraft. The P-9 was also intended as an export version to Hungary for combat duty, however it was used only by the Luftwaffe as tow-craft. 

 

Production was switched to the He 111 H variant, since there were not enough DB 601 engines to sustain both He 111 P and Bf 109 production, and fighters.

 

The He 111 P series should be added into the German aircraft inventory.

• Since the He 111 H is in the game and the DB 601 engine has been included into the Bf 109, the developers wouldn’t have much trouble adding the two together and making minor alterations to the He 111 H-6 base model. Weapons systems shouldn’t be too hard to research and model. 
• The P series was used on the Eastern front with the Hungarians, right from the start of Operation Barbarossa to at least July 1942.
• The P series could be used around Moscow and Stalingrad by Hungary and the Luftwaffe.

 

The P series was dropped by the Germans in 1940, and the Hungarian air force was not a factor on any of the maps we currently have. 

[357th_KW]

Very few Luftwaffe attack aircraft were used in daylight on the western front during 1944-45, thus the reason why they haven’t appeared in BoBp or BoN.  Historically, the FW190, Bf109, Me262 and AR234 probably account for 99% of those type of sorties in that theater and time frame.

[Avimimus]

 

The He-177 and Do-217 were withdrawn during 1944 (although a handful of Do-217 of most variants E/K/M remained into the early fall of 1944). I believe some Ju-88 and Ju-188/388 remained in service into 1945 as night bombers.

 

I'd personally love a Ju-188 cockpit, and it was mass produced enough to be quite relevant. A Do-217E would make sense, as they were employed on the last daylight raids in 1942 and continued until 1944... so they could be used for Dieppe (and other channel scenarios) in a way that the later night-optimised Do-217K couldn't. It also had the longest service life (rivaled by the He-177 - although it is technically four engined which would seem to rule it out).  I'm not sure when daylight raids ended in the East.

 

The Ju-188 could be used as a night bomber in single-player campaigns, and used online (where it would benefit from having a stronger defensive armament - up to 2x20mm cannon and 2x13mm). The same goes for the Do-217E, although it would have a weaker defensive armament in return for a larger internal bombload.

[Jackfraser24]

On 4/18/2022 at 8:00 PM, LukeFF said:

 

The P series was dropped by the Germans in 1940, and the Hungarian air force was not a factor on any of the maps we currently have. 

Were He 111 P series used in Moscow or Stalingrad? I can’t find any info on when P series aircraft were retired from Luftwaffe service, or when all air forces stopped using them, like the Hungarian Air Force.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Jackfraser24

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Jackfraser24 said:

Were He 111 P series used in Moscow or Stalingrad?

 

No, they were not.

[Ribbon]

Ju88-A17 or just torpedo mod for ju88a4

[Jackfraser24]

6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

No, they were not.

When were they phased out entirely? Not just by the Luftwaffe I mean

Edited April 20, 2022 by Jackfraser24

[LukeFF]

7 minutes ago, Jackfraser24 said:

When were they phased out entirely? Not just by the Luftwaffe I mean

 

It looks like sometime in 1943.

[Alexmarine]

2 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

It looks like sometime in 1943.

 

But out of any current module location.

 

There are more planes that can actually fit existing modules better as collector planes...

[Jackfraser24]

12 minutes ago, Alexmarine said:

 

But out of any current module location.

 

There are more planes that can actually fit existing modules better as collector planes...

What would you suggest?

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

What would you suggest?

 

Not directed at me... but...

 

I-153 would be great for Moscow and, particularly, for Kuban.

 

Fw-189 would be neat for Moscow and Stalingrad (largely withdrawn by Kuban I gather).

 

Pe-3 would fit Moscow and Stalingrad (and possibly Kuban).

 

Fi-156 would fit any module (but benefit the most from artillery spotting gameplay being included). 

 

Fw-190A4 is actually interesting (closer to the A-3 in some respects).

 

There are several aircraft that would be useful on the Normandy map for 1942 scenarios (e.g. Mustang I).

 

We could do with more LaGG-3 and P-39 variants.

 

Ju-87D-5 would fit the end of the Kursk scenario. Ju-87B/R would be useful for Moscow (and maybe some other scenarios - weren't some long range R variants used over the Black Sea)?

[ITAF_Rani]

Next DLC ??----Italy 1943 ??--SM79 ??---Maybe???

[Jackfraser24]

What about other versions of the Ju 88 variants? I.e.

• A series, more sub variants (Standard Bomber)(A-1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 13, 14, 15, and A-17)
• D series (Recon version of A series) 
• G series (Night fighter)(G-1, 6 and 7)
• H series (Recon version of G series) 
• P series (Ground attack) (P-1, 2, 3, and 4)
• S series (fast bomber) (S-1, 2 and 3)
• T series (Recon version of S series)

I don't know how many people are interested in doing reconnaissance missions, though...

 

But about the rest, which one do you think should or shouldn't be added to IL 2 Great Battles? 

 

Why do you think that?

Edited April 22, 2022 by Jackfraser24

[Yogiflight]

Bf 110 F2 for Stalingrad. It would definitely make sense to replace the lame E2.

And for the Russian side IL-4 or DB-3 as medium bomber.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

Bf 110 F2 for Stalingrad. It would definitely make sense to replace the lame E2.

 

It wouldn't entirely replace the E-2 at Stalingrad, as there were still a lot of Es in service with ZG 1 at that time - about half their strength.

Edited April 22, 2022 by LukeFF

[Alexmarine]

10 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

And for the Russian side IL-4 or DB-3 as medium bomber.

 

 

I agree 

[Yogiflight]

9 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

It wouldn't entirely replace the E-2 at Stalingrad, as there were still a lot of Es in service with ZG 1 at that time - about half their strength.

But I would guess those were remainders, which were sorted out naturally when getting lost in combat and being replaced then by F2s. Which would happen pretty fast in career mode, as the AI takes every dogfight they can get in ground attack missions, and then get slaughtered.

[Alexmarine]

1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

But I would guess those were remainders, which were sorted out naturally when getting lost in combat and being replaced then by F2s. Which would happen pretty fast in career mode, as the AI takes every dogfight they can get in ground attack missions, and then get slaughtered.

 

E models were still actively being sent to ZG1 units into the fall of 1942, it's not that easy.

 

By the new year I/ZG1 had a best a 50/50 ratio of E to F while maybe only II/ZG1 was starting to have more F than E (but their record is confused as they stopped discriminating by model during the retreat of 1942/43 winter). Consider also that there were still C and D models around, which are best represented by the E model, tipping even more the scale to an higher rario of pre-F models in the units

Edited April 23, 2022 by Alexmarine

[CUJO_1970]

18 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Bf 110 F2 for Stalingrad. It would definitely make sense to replace the lame E2.

And for the Russian side IL-4 or DB-3 as medium bomber.

 

Great suggestions!

 

 

 

[Jackfraser24]

Back to the Ju 88 though

[Yogiflight]

The Torpedo Bomber A 17, yes, but instead of getting more Ju 88 versions I would prefer the Do 17, as a completely different design. And to be honest, all three late war bombers, Ju 188, Do 217 an He 177. They are all cool aircraft designs.

For the Russian side the Tu-2, for the British night bombing Lancasters and for the Americans a flyable B-25 or 26.

But no matter, which bomber, the game play in career mode needs to be improved. Correct altitudes, formations and no diving down to 2000m after bomb dropping.

[ATAG_SKUD]

My top pick would be the Ju 188, particularly the Ju 188 A-2, as it was the most produced and fastest bomber version. Since many large parts were shared with the 88 it should save a little bit of development time.

Yes, that would be a gorgeous view from the cockpit.

skud

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by ATAG_SKUD
clarification

[ATAG_SKUD]

As I and many others have requested before, a 

Flyable Bomber Pack as a collector series would be a great way to make us bomber pilots really happy. I know these are expensive to make so price accordingly and make some money. 

Suggestion:

Make these three A/C flyable in a super pack and throw in some bomber friendly goodies noted below.

 

Martin B-26 Marauder

Junkers Ju 188 A-2

Ilyushin IL-4

 

 

Issued together with some bomber-friendly game improvements:

• Tunable nav beacon frequencies
• Historically accurate bombsights
• Ground radar: Freya/Würzburg/SCR-584/GL Mk. III
• Additional loadout options-i.e fragmentation bombs, mines, torps etc.

 

skud

[Jackfraser24]

What about the Vickers Wellington? Over 10,000 were built and they were heavily used by the British in WW2. 

[CountZero]

3 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

What about the Vickers Wellington? Over 10,000 were built and they were heavily used by the British in WW2. 

IL-2 Tobruk have it, clikable switches, even real bombsight insted arcade ones we have here, and all that and no one plays with it... 

In this game ground attackers fit best, bomber type players are extinct bread in today games, B-26 is next collectable "bomber" if any come, most play WT where bombers colect you expiriance faster ?

Edited April 25, 2022 by CountZero

[FliegerAD]

5 hours ago, CountZero said:

IL-2 Tobruk have it, clikable switches, even real bombsight insted arcade ones we have here, and all that and no one plays with it... 

In this game ground attackers fit best, bomber type players are extinct bread in today games, B-26 is next collectable "bomber" if any come, most play WT where bombers colect you expiriance faster ?

 

I don't think "bomber type players" have ever been much more than a tiny minority in an already tiny niche. Sure, many think they want to play bombers. Those usually envision flying massive fortresses, blasting little enemy fighters with no effort sitting in cool gun-turrets, blow up totally non-civilian targets with a great light show, and then press the short-cut to home base.

 

Thing is... while that is possible, it gets boring quickly.

The actually challenging parts like long range navigation, finding targets, or precise formation flying, is what very few people want to play seriously.

There is a reason why bombers have always been a niche within a niche.

 

I am no exception, btw. Unless I got frontal guns for direct fire, I rarely fly a plane for long.

 

[Avimimus]

9 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

What about the Vickers Wellington? Over 10,000 were built and they were heavily used by the British in WW2. 

 

The problem is that it is withdrawn in 1942 from operations over the Channel. The exception would be a few Coastal Command aircraft perhaps. It was used later in Italy though... so it would make sense for the Italian theatre.

 

It is slower than the Ju-88C6 (much like the Il-4) and thus is potentially useful as an AI aircraft.

 

 

On 4/22/2022 at 4:50 PM, Yogiflight said:

And for the Russian side IL-4 or DB-3 as medium bomber.

 

From what I gather the Il-4 is plausible on most of the maps we have as an overflying aircraft. It does seem that they were generally used to hit targets in the enemy's rear (e.g. supply lines) and were also stationed further from the front than one might expect. It is a pretty charming aircraft overall though. It also has a much larger maximum bombload than the Pe-2 (or SB-2).

 

The Tu-2 is the most likely option - probably more desirable for most players with its large bomb load and heavy defensive armament. It'd be a good counterpart to the Do-217E or Ju-188. It wasn't an exceptionally numerous plane though.

 

I think I'd personally want a Pe-3 for Moscow and Stalingrad... but I'm eccentric and it isn't really a bomber (more of a Ju-88C equivalent).

[Yogiflight]

8 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I think I'd personally want a Pe-3 for Moscow and Stalingrad... but I'm eccentric and it isn't really a bomber (more of a Ju-88C equivalent).

That is exactly the problem. Nothing against the Pe-3, it also would be a nice to have, but it is even less of real bomber than the Pe-2, which is more a dive bomber. This was the reason, I suggested the Il-4 or DB-3.

[Avimimus]

5 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

That is exactly the problem. Nothing against the Pe-3, it also would be a nice to have, but it is even less of real bomber than the Pe-2, which is more a dive bomber. This was the reason, I suggested the Il-4 or DB-3.

 

I agree. With the minor caveat that the Russian high-speed bombers were originally designed around 6x100kg internal bomb-load, with the Pe-2 carrying the same weapon load as the SB-2. Performance was valued over war-load for these aircraft.

 

I agree that the Il-4 would give the Soviets a medium bomber with a more useful weapons load. It is also a pretty charming aircraft in Il-2 1946. As mentioned though - I think there aren't any airfields for it on our existing maps, and only a couple of targets - so some purists might object. Maybe it'd be suitable for a '45 East or Leningrad scenario though?

 

That said, the Il-4 at least fits with the time-frame for every module (except possibly Moscow depending on the subvariant) and is slow enough for the Ju-88C6 to catch it in addition to having a heavy bomb/torpedo load. In contrast, the Tu-2 is very fast and only suitable for some later modules.

[FliegerAD]

I consider the Pe-3 more of a heavy fighter anyway, albeit one that would not do too well.

 

For a dedicated bomber, other choices are certainly superior in that they offer greater variety to what we already have (Pe-2). I like the looks of the Il-4, and although I would  not fly it often, I would fly it nonetheless.

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Avimimus said:

SB-2

 

There was no such thing as the SB-2. It was the Tupolev SB, fitted with a variety of engines.

Edited April 26, 2022 by LukeFF

[ATAG_SKUD]

On 4/25/2022 at 8:33 AM, CountZero said:

IL-2 Tobruk have it, clikable switches, even real bombsight insted arcade ones we have here, and all that and no one plays with it... 

I fly Tobruk in their 88 and its a blast. True blind flying with proper tuneable nav beacons, real navigation and short range runway ILS. Way more realistic bombsight look and operation. Higher control complexity. Its lots of more work than flying a BoX 88 and a much deeper learning curve too. But it might not be for everyone for those same reasons.  Its curious that some pilots on this forum scoff at WT for being an arcade game without realizing how far this sim is from real flying.

I think the issue with lack of bomber pilots in Tobruk is because its still maturing and there isn't alot for a bomber to do in multiplayer ATM. A lot of features are not utilized on most multiplayer maps. I would love to have the features found in Tobruk bombers combined with the loaded servers like we have now with BoX, full of targets like Finnish or Combat Box. I hear Storm of War will be coming to Tobruk. It may be the kick it needs to get rolling.

 

skud

Edited April 27, 2022 by ATAG_SKUD

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Pacific and Tupolev SB ?

[Alexmarine]

25 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

Pacific and Tupolev SB ?

 

[Jackfraser24]

What about the Focke Wulf Fw 200 Condor? Would that be worthwhile having in the game? It would give players a taste of what it was to fly a four engined bomber.

[Enceladus828]

10 hours ago, ATAG_SKUD said:

I fly Tobruk in their 88 and its a blast. True blind flying with proper tuneable nav beacons, real navigation and short range runway ILS. Way more realistic bombsight look and operation. Higher control complexity. Its lots of more work than flying a BoX 88 and a much deeper learning curve too. But it might not be for everyone for those same reasons.  Its curious that some pilots on this forum scoff at WT for being an arcade game without realizing how far this sim is from real flying.

I think the issue with lack of bomber pilots in Tobruk is because its still maturing and there isn't alot for a bomber to do in multiplayer ATM. A lot of features are not utilized on most multiplayer maps. I would love to have the features found in Tobruk bombers combined with the loaded servers like we have now with BoX, full of targets like Finnish or Combat Box. I hear Storm of War will be coming to Tobruk. It may be the kick it needs to get rolling.

 

skud

I'm currently in a position where I can only play CloD on my laptop and only fly bombers as I can't hook up a Joystick to my laptop.

Almost every time I play CloD I put the Autopilot on and fly the Wellington, Blenheim, or BR.20, go to the bombardier position, plug in the parameters, open the bomb bay doors and then drop the bombs.

I have difficulty with the bombsight on the Ju-88s and He-111s as I don't know how much to angle the bombsight down.

 

For the bombsights in BoX/GBs, I hope that the devs can make them like they are in IL-2 1946/CloD where you need to go to the gunner who was also the bombardier -- Nose Gunner on He-111 and Ju-88, Top Gunner on Pe-2 -- to activate the bombsight and not from the pilot position (only applicable on the Arado 234 and the A-20B until the Navigator position is modelled).

There are some MP scenarios where you can fly the He-111H-6 and the Wellington Torpedo version and torpedo enemy ships. I do that a lot when I go on MP.

[ATAG_SKUD]

1 hour ago, Enceladus said:

I have difficulty with the bombsight on the Ju-88s and He-111s as I don't know how much to angle the bombsight down.

I went through the same learning curve. See this thread  in ATAG for the good answers I got. 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33906&p=361250#post361250

Also, I recommend watching this video in this thread.

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23541

skud