Whats up with ground handling of new Spitfire Mk.14?

[ataribaby]

I can't handle Spitfire Mk.14 during taxi at all. I know Spitfire is princess in the air and pig on the ground but I think it is too much. It starts ground loops from minimal speed with engine at idle. I know there is big 5 blade propeller that generates a lot of gyroscopic but even AI is not able to handle it.

 

 

I was in Mk.9 in this video, and didn't paid too much attention to my taxi as I wanted record AI problems in Mk.14 ahead of me. 

 

Maybe I am doing something completly wrong (slow little throttle to make rudder works, slight burts of brake and pedals)

 

 

[JimTM]

Starting at 0:44, you were taxiing too fast to make the direction change that you made before looping. Similar to the high-speed rollout after landing, you need to avoid any change in direction by first using the rudder at higher speeds and then using short stabs of brake as you slow down. You can use longer brake inputs if you're starting to wander too much, but get off the brake right away once you stop wandering.   

 

After 1:55, your taxi speed was about right for doing s-turns to clear your path ahead. Just make short rudder inputs to start each turn and immediately make the opposite input to stop the turn growing too large. Make your turns very small at first and then a bit larger once you get the feel for the response.

 

You can taxi the Spitfire using rudder alone as long as you are very gentle with the throttle, but you can use some brake to avoid turning too much.

[ataribaby]

Thanks for tips, I will try. I has been using differential brakes mainly.

[sturmkraehe]

You can use brakes with little concern until dropping below 40 mph. When you reach 35 mph +/- then the Spitty will behave like a capricious princess. Here you need to be very alert to any small deviations from the straight line. As soon as you notice that she wanna go to one side apply short burst of brakes coupled with FULL rudder to the opposite direction. As soon as she then wants to swerve for the other side do the same but now with rudder again opposite to the Spitty's tendency. With a lil practice you can manage to convince her to stay on course and not doing donuts on ground.

 

Ah, and don't forget to press the tail to the ground all the time. It's probably of little use with the Spits but for other planes it ll help a lot.

Edited May 22, 2021 by sturmkraehe

[RedKestrel]

14 hours ago, sturmkraehe said:

You can use brakes with little concern until dropping below 40 mph. When you reach 35 mph +/- then the Spitty will behave like a capricious princess. Here you need to be very alert to any small deviations from the straight line. As soon as you notice that she wanna go to one side apply short burst of brakes coupled with FULL rudder to the opposite direction. As soon as she then wants to swerve for the other side do the same but now with rudder again opposite to the Spitty's tendency. With a lil practice you can manage to convince her to stay on course and not doing donuts on ground.

 

Ah, and don't forget to press the tail to the ground all the time. It's probably of little use with the Spits but for other planes it ll help a lot.

I haven't flown the Spit XIV much, but in the Spit IX I find that holding the tail down makes a pretty big difference when taxiing.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Given the number of notable accidents and ground loop incidents with the Mark XIV in real life, it feel like they have largely captured the challenge of handling this Spitfire model on the ground.

 

Gentle differential rudder work and slower taxi speeds really makes a difference. Whatever issues folks experience with the IX are magnified here. I definitely learned a few lessons!

[RedKestrel]

2 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Given the number of notable accidents and ground loop incidents with the Mark XIV in real life, it feel like they have largely captured the challenge of handling this Spitfire model on the ground.

 

Gentle differential rudder work and slower taxi speeds really makes a difference. Whatever issues folks experience with the IX are magnified here. I definitely learned a few lessons!

Generally speaking everyone taxis too fast. If you watch an MP airfield vs. video footage from WWII people are going crazy fast on the ground.

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Aircraft make very poor land vehicles.  What would be creeping along in a car is the equivalent of going for the pole position at Le Mans in a plane. 

[Dragon1-1]

There are certain features that make them better, though. Like a lockable tailwheel. Such a nice invention that the British seem to have failed to consider.

[Lusekofte]

Looking at the development, British might have thinking tailwheel lock is another thing pilots would forget about. 

Consideration of design, applying things and Weight,  might be well thought , and not forgotten, I for one would not question the design of such a beloved aircraft

Edited May 24, 2021 by LuseKofte

[Dragon1-1]

One or two ground loops and they'd remember.  Either that, or do what the Americans (and Focke-Wulf) did - lock the tailwheel when pulling back on the stick, which is what you should be doing regardless during the rollout. 

 

The Spit is pretty, but hardly perfect. I prefer the centerline armament of the Yaks, 30mm guns and ergonomic cockpit of the Messers, and the easy ground handling of US aircraft. While nimble and fun to fly, the Spit runs out of ammo very quickly, which is a problem since the wing guns make gunnery harder, and is difficult to taxi on top of that.

[Boogdud]

The solution is quite simple. We just need an AI crew chief to sit on our right wing during taxi just like real life.  

[cardboard_killer]

13 minutes ago, Boogdud said:

The solution is quite simple. We just need an AI crew chief to sit on our right wing during taxi just like real life.  

 

Any real life crew chief that saw me taxi would rather be court martialed than get on my wing!

[Jaegermeister]

I steer the Spitfire with power input, not brakes, unless it is almost completely stopped.

A small amount of power with rudder to change direction. 1100 - 1400 rpm

Keep the flaps up after landing.

Make sure prop pitch is full forward

Remember full prop pitch on landing

The Griffon engine rotates opposite to the Merlin so full left rudder trim

Remember full left rudder trim on landing

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

So, yeah yeah apparently the common hatred for all things Spitfire is quite common these days...

 

 

[Vortice]

The Spitfire is easy to land, taxi and park up in a relatively constrained space when you know how.

 

The difficult part is learning how to know how. So good luck with that. ?

[EAF19_Marsh]

When I used to fly I was instructed that for taxi a jogging pace was the upper limit and that was in a tricycle aircraft, so brisk walk speeds in a 2,000hp tail-dragger is likely sufficient especially when we lack the physical sensation that clues incipient movement.

 

XIV needs to be handled with kid gloves on the ground and a degree of care when manoeuvring up above.

[Requiem]

For a gaming technique...just hold the brakes the entire time you taxi and immediately after touching down when you land. The brakes are not strong enough in general in Il-2 so you won't have any issues using this technique. Don't do this ever in a RL aircraft though. If brake strength improves in the future I'd revise this guidance though.

[DD_fruitbat]

On 5/23/2021 at 5:01 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

Aircraft make very poor land vehicles.  What would be creeping along in a car is the equivalent of going for the pole position at Le Mans in a plane. 

 

Unless you're in a P38. Make a great plane to have a race around the taxiways around an airfield?

[Avimimus]

On 5/23/2021 at 11:25 AM, RedKestrel said:

Generally speaking everyone taxis too fast. If you watch an MP airfield vs. video footage from WWII people are going crazy fast on the ground.

 

Why taxi when you can just throttle up your TB-3 from where it is partked and take-off at an angle cutting through everyone else on the runway? (is that attitude I'm most familiar with)

[RedKestrel]

On 5/26/2021 at 2:31 PM, Requiem said:

For a gaming technique...just hold the brakes the entire time you taxi and immediately after touching down when you land. The brakes are not strong enough in general in Il-2 so you won't have any issues using this technique. Don't do this ever in a RL aircraft though. If brake strength improves in the future I'd revise this guidance though.

I will say that when I have landed a little fast in the P-47, hitting the brakes right away after landing resulted in a nose-over. That's the only time I think I've ever nosed over in the game.

[Jade_Monkey]

On 5/26/2021 at 2:31 PM, Requiem said:

For a gaming technique...just hold the brakes the entire time you taxi and immediately after touching down when you land. The brakes are not strong enough in general in Il-2 so you won't have any issues using this technique. Don't do this ever in a RL aircraft though. If brake strength improves in the future I'd revise this guidance though.

 

Absolutely agree, the brakes are made out of butter. I think other sims overdo the brakes a bit, but at least they are functional.

51 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

I will say that when I have landed a little fast in the P-47, hitting the brakes right away after landing resulted in a nose-over. That's the only time I think I've ever nosed over in the game.

 

I've noticed that the Hurricane is also prone to that.

[RedKestrel]

49 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

 

Absolutely agree, the brakes are made out of butter. I think other sims overdo the brakes a bit, but at least they are functional.

 

I've noticed that the Hurricane is also prone to that.

Now that I think about it I did manage to nose over the Hurricane as well on takeoff - I was really used to flying the P-47 which I find needs a bit of forward pressure on the stick to get the tail off the ground  to speed up faster on short takeoffs. Prop strike on my first attempt at taking off resulted...

[BlitzPig_EL]

Speaking of prop strikes, and forcing the tail up to take off...   In many videos of real warbirds taking off the pilot will say that the aircraft will "fly itself off"  with "no need to use the elevator".  In particular there is a video of a Canadian P40 that illustrates this.   Ever tried it in the sim?  Doesn't work that way on the pixel P40.

[Bremspropeller]

The P-40 barely has enough power to ground-loop.

[216th_Jordan]

Most important thing is to keep a bit of power (~10%) to give you enough airflow over the rudder to counter moves. Pulling the stick back also helps.

Edited May 31, 2021 by 216th_Jordan

[Vortice]

2 hours ago, 216th_Jordan said:

Most important thing is to keep a bit of power (~10%) to give you enough airflow over the rudder to counter moves. Pulling the stick back also helps.

 

500 RPM and elevator trim set to maximum nose-up for taxiing and touchdown. Stick fully back only needed for landing when combined with full nose-up trim.

 

1000 RPM (briefly) for unsticking yourself from grass / rough ground but drop it down to 500 as soon as you start moving. Use gentle brake & rudder combinations and don't open the throttle impulsively, or you will ground loop. Nice and easy does it every time.

 

Works for me. ?

Edited May 31, 2021 by Vortice
Talking about the Spitfire IX & XIV only here

[BlitzPig_EL]

3 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

The P-40 barely has enough power to ground-loop.

Yet it still happens. 

 

I do believe the Curtiss had the shortest ground roll on takeoff of any USAAF fighter.  Another area where the sim has issues.  If you think not, look at old film of WW1 aircraft taking off, then try to emulate that in the sim.

[Requiem]

7 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

I will say that when I have landed a little fast in the P-47, hitting the brakes right away after landing resulted in a nose-over. That's the only time I think I've ever nosed over in the game.

Yeah I'm just saying in general they're weaker than I would expect. Even in twins running on one engine I would think taxiing should be possible but I can't remember ever being able to do that.

 

The braking is made more difficult in airplanes with only a brake lever vs toe brakes in Il-2 as I don't think the lever can be assigned to an axis, meaning that you can only apply it by holding down a button without being able to hold a specific braking pressure. 

 

The Hurricane seems to be the exception to weak braking though as you can definitely prop strike with heavy braking on landing.

[LukeFF]

34 minutes ago, Requiem said:

The braking is made more difficult in airplanes with only a brake lever vs toe brakes in Il-2 as I don't think the lever can be assigned to an axis, meaning that you can only apply it by holding down a button without being able to hold a specific braking pressure.

 

The brake lever can definitely be applied to an axis.

[Bremspropeller]

8 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Yet it still happens.

 

It happens a lot. My taxi-time to and from the runway always increases by a factor of three when taking the P-40 in game. ?

[Requiem]

12 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

The brake lever can definitely be applied to an axis.

Ah ok then that's good. I'm stuck using it on my Warthog throttle using that lever at the front, doesn't seem to work as an axis though

[-SF-Disarray]

If you mean the lever on the stick down by the pinkie button, it is because that isn't really a lever. It is a button with a fancy way of pressing it.