Questions to VR guys from desktop guys

[sturmkraehe]

I am still flying desktop and would like to ask my VR colleagues about their experience.

 

Is VR really great - sort of: wow why didn't I have this sooner? Or is it more like: Yeah, nice, but quite expensive gadget for the view...?

 

Then: How do you manage all the key pressing that one needs? Is this possible or do you have to steer all from your multi-switch joystick?

[DN308]

And BTW, isn’t that ruined your eyes?

[Charlo-VRde]

I would probably not be flying any flight sim without VR. The pandemic giving me the time and the state of VR last year got me back digital flying, and now I fly a couple of hours most nights in VR. IL-2 has become one of my major new hobbies.

 

I have all of my HOTAS buttons memorized, but also peek out from my headset as needed, such as when I need to use a keyboard control I don’t have programmed.

 

it probably helps that I had a couple of years of ROF and Cliffs of Dover experience back when I worked part-time 10+ years ago to learn well my HOTAS controls. It also helps that I am in my 50’s and never had kids, so my wife and I have disposable, hobby income, as you can see in my signature.

[PatrickAWlson]

VR is great.  You really do feel like you are in a cockpit.

Finding controls is the biggest drawback.  I have engine and weapons management keys mapped to a throttle and stick and can generally find them with without too much difficulty.

Voice Attack: voice commands.  Works great.  20 commands is free and unlimited costs $10.  I map all of the other commands to voice commands.

[Eisenfaustus]

I love the VR experience and would never go back to 2D. 
 

With a HOTAS (thrustmaster flight pack in my case) and joy2key free Software I get along with the keys. 
 

I haven’t noticed any negative effects on my health yet. (Extensive use for 2 years now)

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

VR is so good that flying without it isn't even an option for me...and I run it fairly well on a modest gaming laptop (Rift S). I have all buttons mapped to my Hotas but in the rift s I can easily peek down at key commands. Flying in vr is second nature, natural, and fluid.

[ITAF_Airone1989]

VR is amazing!
If your PC can handle it, I think there are no reasons to don't try...
(Try to check amazon, cause they usually do this: you can try the VR for a month, if you don't like or feel sick they will return the money...)

[=621=Samikatz]

VR is cool, but it's not without issues that can be a deal breaker sometimes. You have to train yourself to look around exclusively with your head, you can't glance with your eyes, and the narrow field of view on a lot of sets can feel like horse blinders and be very claustrophobic. These aren't the fault of Il-2 and are more to do with the physical realities of a lot of headsets. I still enjoy it, but I could and do often live without it

[Jaegermeister]

Flying in VR has completely changed the experience for me. 

 

It wasn't like wow, why not sooner?, because the graphics, my new computer and the new headset (Rift S) just recently all caught up with each other and they work together correctly now. A Warthog HOTAS and rudder pedals takes care of control needs, and adding an F-Key pad solved my flight leader command needs.

 

I really can't go back to flying on a flat screen after flying in VR. The experience is so much more intuitive and immersive that it's 2 completely different things. I can test functionality in 2D, but not actually fly, if that makes sense. 

 

My eyesight is getting worse as I get older, and I need reading glasses, but I can see just fine in VR without them. It has not damaged my eyesight at all.

[DN308]

Thank you for your answer.

My eyes are my concern. My occupations need a perfect vision, and getting older, I have more and more difficulties to see closer. I don’t want to ruin them more with a screen so close of them.

[Jaegermeister]

I believe in VR your eyes focus like they do in real life. You have depth perception so your focus changes depending on where you are looking, near or far. I am not an eye doctor, but I thing staring at a flat screen at a set distance would be more harmful to your vision over time than VR

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

I don't fly or drive any simulator game in 2D anymore, it's simply that great immersion in VR.

As stated it has it's problems, mainly that a monster rig is needed but together with a solid HOTAS (must have in my opinion) and VoiceAttack I don't use the keyboard at all.

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

If we are talking G1 or G2 then yes, its absolutely worth it. You will never look back at a monitor, eye strain and dryness could be a factor if your vision isn't alright. 
g2 dries my yes within minutes. But the colours are amazing. 
theres the 1 day inner ear adjustment period but thats fun too. You would have to take off the headset for typing chat etc. 
 

[FTC_horsky]

I haven't played il2 gb at all on a screen, vr from the start. Only when editing tracks I see the full potential of the graphics, vr is quite demanding, as previous poster wrote a beefy rig is the way to go but you can manage on less. VR is a lot of tinkering with settings to find your comfortable sweet spot between performance and image quality, the better the gear the better the quality of course. Also when using OVR toolkit you never have to take of your headset to access your desktop in flight or otherwise.

I think once you VR you wont go back, its just that great. ?

[TCW_Brzi_Joe]

34 minutes ago, [-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR said:

theres the 1 day inner ear adjustment period but thats fun too. You would have to take off the headset for typing chat etc. 

I needed more as beginner to be able to play hours in vr; start 5min, then rest 5min, then play 10min, rest 10min... In a few days you will be ok.

But if you ever feel dizzy, sick, or similar, take it off immediately. Forcing will make you bad experience.

 

I removed my nose pad (it is possible in Pimax); now I have small gap around my nose, which is excellent for peeking on keyboard, and that is also ventilation for my eyes.

 

Focus in vr googles is not at 5cm; it is usually between 25cm and 1m, depends on model. Many people do not need glasses in it.

 

You will benefit for checking six in vr, (even with "Neck saver"), as this will help your neck same as sport

 

Is it great? It is the best way of playing.

 

Is it expencive? Probbably, but you have options, same as with joysticks - I was enjoying my old 30eur second hand hotas same as my current 350eur hotas. 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I'd never go back to 2D. The VR experience is just so much better.

 

It's of utmost importance to select the correct VR headset for your start, to avoid frustrations. There are several duds out there which you want to avoid, especially as a beginner.

 

If you decide that you want VR, the best way is to

1) open a new thread here

2) post your computer specifications

3) post the budget for your VR headset

4) the use cases (just IL-2? FPS too? VRChat? Let us know)

 

We're happy to assist / discuss / recommend 

[dburne]

4 hours ago, SvAF/F16_Goblin said:

I don't fly or drive any simulator game in 2D anymore, it's simply that great immersion in VR.

As stated it has it's problems, mainly that a monster rig is needed but together with a solid HOTAS (must have in my opinion) and VoiceAttack I don't use the keyboard at all.

 

My experience as well.

I went to VR in Jan 2017 and have not looked back.

Nothing but VR since for any game.

HOTAS along with Voice Attack here also.

[Dutch2]

13 hours ago, sturmkraehe said:

I am still flying desktop and would like to ask my VR colleagues about their experience.

 

Is VR really great - sort of: wow why didn't I have this sooner? Or is it more like: Yeah, nice, but quite expensive gadget for the view...?

 

Then: How do you manage all the key pressing that one needs? Is this possible or do you have to steer all from your multi-switch joystick?

 

Think we can not advise anything on how VR is for you as a individual person, some do not like it or become sick and went back for the pancake.  The only advice I can give for exploring VR is to go to an VR arcade hall. Try to noticed the pro/cons of VR and see the aspects which are important for yourself.

 

 

Keep in your mind running in VR does need a beefy system, forget all those, I can run BoX on an GTX1060 or AMD-580 at 90FPS straight, its all not true. Reading you PC specs that means a complete new system, while hardware is now being overpriced. So its better to wait to normal and also at the end of this year new systems with DDR5/PCIe5 will be released. 

 

[Drano]

In 2D you're looking at a monitor. You're looking at the cockpit on the monitor. You can look around with your hat or TIR but you're still looking at the world on a monitor. In VR you're actually sitting in the cockpit! Like you can reach out and touch the controls that seem to be right in front of you. The perception of depth can't be replicated looking at a monitor. I used TIR for years but can't go back now. VR is the best experience. 

 

You're going to need a PC with some extra horsepower to run VR. There will be much tweaking to find settings that work best. Unless you get a very high end headset clarity is a bit of a problem. Spotting is harder because of that. The limited FOV takes some getting used to. It's literally a pain in the neck looking around to the rear hemisphere. VR NeckSafer is the answer to that problem. Get it here on the forum. 

 

Voice Attack is the answer to commands you need but run out of buttons on your HOTAS. Easily the best $10 I've spent on software. Just get it. Free up more useful commands for your stick and throttle. Set up a command where you say "Nav lights", it types the command for you, Nav lights come on. Super easy. I've found actually trying to dictate with it is a crap shoot tho. It tends to come out word salad for me. But for short commands? It's great. 

 

I was hesitant to go VR as I was worried about the effect of looking at a screen at extremely close range would have on my already bad enough eyes but my eye doc hasn't reported any changes since I started with it. I wear contacts/glasses and got prescription lenses for my RiftS that work great. 

[fiddlinjim]

9 hours ago, DN308 said:

Thank you for your answer.

My eyes are my concern. My occupations need a perfect vision, and getting older, I have more and more difficulties to see closer. I don’t want to ruin them more with a screen so close of them.

I am 83 and fly VR exclusively and my vision acuity has not deteriorated at all from using VR, your eyes focus past the lenses not on them.

The fear that VR affects your vision is an old wives rumor from all I see and understand. 

    

[sturmkraehe]

I've updated my system specs as my signature was pretty much outdated. Please see below.

 

What model would you recommend?

 

BTW: I have to wear glasses and without them I would not see much (being almost a mole without). And they're not really small. Would this work?

 

And how to integrate my headset? Does this pose an issue?

 

What is the comfort carrying it for extended times?

Edited May 17, 2021 by sturmkraehe

[kisschicken]

I started on VR and switched to TrackIR. Everything just looks so much higher fidelity on a monitor. 

[rieper_420]

Hello,

 

I started playing IL-2 forgotten battles back in 2003 with fake trackir (home made IR-LED with 9V Block)

I have been playing IL-2 GB for 3 years now with opentrack and arcuo paper marker on 2560x1440 resolution

I switched to Oculus Rift S in February 2021:

Regular Glasses don't seem to fit into the Rift S (a friend tried last weekend)

 

VR comments:

Pro:

+ you feel like you are in the cockpit - it is in 3D, you will get dizzy - it is really really awesome

 + you look through the Revi gunsight with one eye only

 + AAA coming up from the ground looks really scary!

 + you can see the tracers cross

 + it is really intuitive to judge distances

 

 

Con:

- resolution is really low compared to gaming before on a 28" screen with 2560x1440 => I agree on kisschicken

 

After playing VR, playing on the screen feels like looking at a high resolution photo:

- it looks very pretty, but you just look at it.

in VR you are in the cockpit

 

=> I bought my Rift S for 360€ which I find really cheap. (yes mandatory facebook account sucks)

 

There are much better headsets available than the Rift S but for me it is currently the best price/value

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by rieper_420

[von_Tom]

3 hours ago, kisschicken said:

Everything just looks so much higher fidelity on a monitor. 

 

This is very true.

 

Now though, when I look at IL2 on a screen, that high fidelity makes it look too perfect, to the point where the disbelief is no longer suspended.  You can appreciate how it looks, but how it "feels" isn't as good.

 

The best analogy I can give is when you look at super high resolution images on a large ultra HD TV - the video that is made solely for display purposes is too perfect and no longer looks real.  It looks fake even though it is real.

 

It's weird to think of it like that, but that's how it seems to me.

 

von Tom

 

ps  Index user.

[Barnacles]

On 5/16/2021 at 10:43 PM, sturmkraehe said:

I am still flying desktop and would like to ask my VR colleagues about their experience.

 

Is VR really great - sort of: wow why didn't I have this sooner? Or is it more like: Yeah, nice, but quite expensive gadget for the view...?

 

Then: How do you manage all the key pressing that one needs? Is this possible or do you have to steer all from your multi-switch joystick?

I was the latter, it is great but in Il2 at least, I've not had the "can't go back" to a flat screen thing. This might be due to the fact that I have a really early VR headset which has poor FoV and a bad "screen door effect" (you can see the borders around the pixels) and my pc isn't powerful enough to run full graphics without compromising 90fps frame rate. 

 

All that said, in elite dangerous, it feels weird not playing in VR, because I've never played it without. 

[F19_Haddock]

VR is a game changer. I can't go back to 2D ever again.

 

The only drawback is access to the keyboard. I've mapped most buttons on my HOTAS, but there aren't just enough buttons, so sometimes I have to raise the VR headset and peek at the keyboard. Luckily enough I don't need to do this in combat.

[JLean]

I still remember the joy when I took my kids X-mas present to use in December. The feeling at being in the cockipit was and is simply amazing. I have ”only” Rift S. 

Good HOTAS makes flying much easier. I got Kanttorin Kone console and adds immersion to s next level.

 

JLean

[BeastyBaiter]

For me, it's either VR or nothing when it comes to flight sims. The original CV1 sold me on it, even with it's awful image quality and USB port hogging sensors. It's hard to make a comparison for people who don't have VR, but the best I can think of is trying to compare flying with keyboard only on a laptop with the sounds muted vs flying with a hotas + pedals + head tracking + a nice headset/speakers + a big, high resolution screen. It's on a totally different level from what you currently have.

 

To answer some specific questions:

Eye strain: VR is set to focus at a decent distance, compared to a monitor at a normal desktop distance, your focus is much further away. I think it varies some by headset but it's all far side of the room or further type of distance. Dry eyes can be an issue I suppose, but that's a matter of just needing to blink. The headset blocks all wind from your eyes and I think that screws with some people's natural reflexes when it comes to blinking. I generally don't find this a problem though.

 

For buttons, put everything on the hotas. I leave a few controls like landing gear on the keyboard and the general game controls (e.g. escape key). But those are very easy to find given the escape key is top left and G is right of the F key, which has a little raised bump on most keyboards (including mine). Those are also keys typically not used in a hurry. The Reverb G2 I got last week also allows for easily flipping up the headset so that I can see my desk without taking the headset completely off. The Rift S I used previously lacked this feature.

 

Edit: For wearing glasses, I too am blind as a bat without them. I don't wear giant army birth control goggles but I do wear normal civilian glasses. I can't comment on all headsets, but the Rift CV1 applied some pressure, while the Rift S, Quest and Reverb G2 are comfortable with them. Care had to be taken with the Oculus CV1 not to bump and scratch lenses while the rest seem to have plenty of clearance.

Edited May 19, 2021 by BeastyBaiter

[DD_Crash]

Read this thread

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/forums/threads/prescription-vr-lenses-worth-buying.18898405/

[HunDread]

On 5/16/2021 at 11:43 PM, sturmkraehe said:

I am still flying desktop and would like to ask my VR colleagues about their experience.

 

Is VR really great - sort of: wow why didn't I have this sooner? Or is it more like: Yeah, nice, but quite expensive gadget for the view...?

 

Then: How do you manage all the key pressing that one needs? Is this possible or do you have to steer all from your multi-switch joystick?

 

Don't trust anyone but yourself. If you decide to try VR make sure you do it in a way that you can return the device if you don't like it. I fly in VR since it was implemented but still not sure I can wholeheartedly recommend it to everyone over monitors or huge 4k screens.  

[sturmkraehe]

Thank you all - your replies assist me very well in making up my mind on VR. I understand that I need an update of my rig. Does anybody have an image of how IL2 looks like with CR? I understand that the 3D impression will lack but at least I have a slight impression on the resolution, colours and details.

[Wulfen]

VR is a game changer. I mainly fly DCS, but sometimes on IL2. IL2 is easier on the hardware side than DCS, but DCS runs pretty well on my 2080 i7 4790k 32gigs ram with the Reverb G1. As for VR, I have never flown on a flat screen since I first used VR, and I never will again!

Once you have got used to VR ,then pancake mode is over. You are in the aircraft and in that world, totally I find. The immersion is near complete, and can be enhanced again by the use of bass shakers etc. IL2 runs very well in VR, so a decent rig and you should be fine. Hopefully I`ll put a new build together next year when the next gen gpus and cpus arrive along with DDR5 ram. I have got 7 years out of my rig so far and it`s still serving me well.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Wulfen

[DD_Crash]

I use a 5ghz i7 8086K with a 1080, and an Oculus CV1. The view is slightly blurred but I think its worth it for the feeling of being sat in an aircraft.

[chiliwili69]

4 hours ago, sturmkraehe said:

Does anybody have an image of how IL2 looks like with VR?

 

Here you have through lens pictures of Valve Index and Reverb G2 compared with monitor:

 

Or here Index versus HP G1:

or here Oculus Rift CV1 versus Pimax5K

 

 

[dburne]

There is no way to get a good comparison with an image on the monitor. An image on the monitor is not moving.

In VR it looks very different due to the depth perception.

You pretty much have to try it and see.

Edited May 20, 2021 by dburne

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

44 minutes ago, dburne said:

There is no way to get a good comparison with an image on the monitor. An image on the monitor is not moving.

In VR it looks very different due to the depth perception.

You pretty much have to try it and see.

Exactly true.

 

That's why specs-only are not always very helpful. I'd still be rocking a Pimax 8KX if specs only were most important. But there are many more factors than just specs - geometrical stability, presence, seamless integration to OpenVR/SteamVR, refresh rate, distortion free, display persistence, color palette, blacks, and more. I found a better device which looks worse by specs, but is actually far better in everything except the range of FOV. Currently hoping for the Vive Pro 2 - to get some more FOV back.

[chiliwili69]

10 hours ago, dburne said:

There is no way to get a good comparison with an image on the monitor. An image on the monitor is not moving.

In VR it looks very different due to the depth perception.

You pretty much have to try it and see

Absolutely true.

 

The above pictures are just flat (no 3D depth) and were taken only to compare the image quality in the center of the vision between two devices.

[firdimigdi]

18 hours ago, sturmkraehe said:

Does anybody have an image of how IL2 looks like with CR? I understand that the 3D impression will lack but at least I have a slight impression on the resolution, colours and details.

 

That'll give you a very basic feel that's truly not representative enough for a comparison to a screen (which would be your point of reference), not just because of the missing parallax but also due to the scale of the image and the capabilities of the camera used to shoot the photograph through the headset lens.

 

Also - and this might sound like it's verging on the slightly metaphysical - apart from the headset-to-headset differences due to technical reasons what you end up seeing can vary due to anatomic and mental reasons: eye socket depth and symmetry play a rather large role as does the way your brain interprets, focuses, filters out and corrects things that come through the optic nerve (i.e. what it's willing to put up with).

[Jeroen-]

I'd say go for it. Question is not really if you should buy VR or not but more if you play any games that utilize VR. If you don't have a dedicated game in which you downpour a lot of hours in then VR is a nice gimmick but your interest will probably run out quite fast. 

 

However if you love IL-2 and spent the time in it then go for it. The experience is amazing. I'm using a diy track hat with opentrack and PS3 cam for desktop screen. And bought a second hand rift S.

I love both and depending on my mood, switch regularly between both setups. If I want amazing graphics and enjoy the scenery I use my track hat and if I want to fly more immersive I go VR. No right or wrong between the two. They both have pros and cons.

 

Personally I feel that spotting, giving the decreased graphics, in VR is easier. Identifying is a bit harder though. Aiming on the other hand VR wins big time. The fact that you see depth gives direct feedback and allows for easy leading your tracers to the target. 

 

Regardless of the setup I mapped most controls to my T flight horas x utilizing shift like buttons  on it to increase the number of combinations and unique mapping options. Works really well.

 

Other games like project cars or elite dangerous are also awesome experiences in VR. I bought it for IL-2 and already think it's worth it. So all the rest is just a nice bonus.

 

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

On 5/16/2021 at 11:07 PM, Jaegermeister said:

 

 

My eyesight is getting worse as I get older, and I need reading glasses, but I can see just fine in VR without them. It has not damaged my eyesight at all.

You might want to buy a pair of anti blue light lenses or glasses for your Rift S. I use abl glasses with my rift s and it eliminated all eye strain and headaches for me.