damage model corrupt after updates?

[ATA_Vasilij]

HI pilots,

 

Some question put into the air:

 

 - is it OK if I shoot 3x37mm (Lagg3) into the fuselage of Fw190  - from the clear six... from around 400 m so very close, ane I see big explosions and the planes continue to flyi? Even without loosing speed?

- Is it OK to shoot all ammo of my VyA23 mm into the FW190 A3 and it continue in fly and seems like nothing caused him several damage ?

- is it OK to get On small hit into my Tempest wing (only one small visible black hole - nothing severe, and my plane is almost unable to fly? Hard to turn, immediate loosiing speed like Imy plane carry 5tun payload? 

- Is it OK To shoot my vYa23 cannon from the very top to the very end of Bf109 body I see visible hits all there. And the shoots went through the cabin (pilot) and He still continue to fly and not even PK? Do you know that only one small machinegun can kill the person ? Not considering the cannon going through his body and nothing?

 

Since when are pilots immortal after cannon hits, is this a simulator or parody to the arcade?

 

and small points which I still see:

- BF crashing the ground from high alt and staing in one piece no explosion and even the propeller still turns even when halůve is in under the ground, lol

- Parachute bailing out. Why german pilost can ALWAYS get out even if in high diving speeds? And allies pilots almost always stay in the cabin ?

 

etc. etc....

 

WHEN can we expect some fixing?

Cheers.

 

I am really upset what the sim behaves afters last updates....

 

 

 

[Luftschiff]

Please supply track recordings of these things happening so it can be examined/investigated.

I have noticed no inconsistency with the damage model myself, but I've mostly been playing flying circus over the past few days. Do you mean the hotfix?

 

The visual damage is not very indicative of the severity of damage received, and cannot be relied upon as proof of what, or how much, you were hit. That hit in your tempest's wing could well have been a 20mm-shell severing control rods and severely injuring the aerodynamics of the wing, so yes that is definitely OK.

For the same reason it's also difficult to say whether or not something is wrong with your other examples, Hitting the cockpit does not mean the bullet hit the pilot. iirc the  vYa23 also fire armour piercing ammunition (it's designed as an anti tank weapon) and could have gone straight through the plane without hitting anything. The Fw190 could have been crippled by your attacks and unable to make it back to base. Point is - it's hard to say. If you provide recordings it can be examined in better detail. 

 

As for parachutes, most german planes are fitted with explosive canopy ejection mechanisms, whereas several of the soviet craft are notoriously difficult to bail out of. That's working as intended and historically accurate. 

 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

It has been a debate for a while, that AP rounds do only superficial damage and no structural damage or very few, causing almost no drag penalty and performance losses. It has been made obvious with the .50 M2 because belts are exclusively AP right now. Its been more than a year. At this point its like beating a dead horse. We must hope that eventually devs will look deeply into that issue but its probably not the right time to put a lot of ressources on this since the focus is probably on BON, which is logical.

[oc2209]

I just tested out the 23mm cannon on the LaGG-3 versus a P-40; it took me about 45 rounds to kill the pilot and set the plane on fire. Using all explosive rounds, no AP. Maybe it would help you to not bother using AP at all.

 

As for 37mm, I used it in the Yak-9T on some tests (all explosive ammo). I've always noticed its damage output is highly variable and somewhat suspect. I made my target drone a heavily loaded P-51, and took the following screen shots:

 

Test 1:

 

First strike, left wing, unsure of precise location.

 

 

Second strike, tail.

 

 

Third strike, tail. Loss of rudder and one elevator.

 

 

Fourth strike, upper rear fuselage. No discernible effect, but the plane crashed during maneuvering shortly after.

 

 

Second test:

 

Didn't bother to take screen of the first hit. it was long distance (~250m) somewhere in the fuselage. No discernible effect.

 

Second strike, left wing root, loss of flap.

 

 

Third strike, right wing root, loss of flap.

 

 

Fourth strike, left wing root again, started fire. Pilot bailed, fire extinguished as plane entered flat spin.

 

 

Now, here's my 109G-6 Late with a 30mm against the same target.

 

First strike, mid-wing, no discernible effect.

 

 

Second strike, left wing root, flap loss, pilot wound and loss of consciousness.

 

 

Pilot regained consciousness, but too late to avoid crashing.

 

 

All told, it would appear as though the Russian 37mm has poor shrapnel distribution compared to the German 30mm; the evidence being that I obtained several strikes near the P-51's cockpit and never wounded the pilot, while the German 30mm took only one hit to wound. I also have doubts as to whether any part of the P-51's tail should survive after 2 37mm strikes.

[ATA_Vasilij]

thanks for the huge testing...

 

In my opinion such calibre as 30 or 37 should give much worse damage on planes. Even the first hit !

 

I see quite often scenes where 3 allies planes (no matter what  - if Mustang, Yak, Spit or Tempests) are shooting at ONE german plane mostly FW, and the FW after SOOOO MANY hits, still continue in wild maneuvering and flying at its high speed. Soooo often seeing.

 

Is something wrong with abnormal german capability to survive ?
Does Fw have some secret german steel included, or what?

 

And commonly.... Hitting pilots and PK is very rare issue. Despite of most of granades or guns hits exactly the cabin where is no panzer cover. Only glass.

 

 

[sturmkraehe]

Did somebody have some tests with the Hispano Suiza Mk II guns? I know it is a smaller caliber but if it really was so useless I doubt they wouldn't have done something about it whereas in the war they kept the two cannon set up for the Spits throughout the war with a few exceptions like the four canon spits.

 

I also get one shot killed a lot and this from close range to far range online by German guns. I have been instant killed at distances up to 1.5 km (icons on) by German guns.

Edited May 15, 2021 by sturmkraehe

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, sturmkraehe said:

Did somebody have some tests with the Hispano Suiza Mk II guns?

The Hispanos are the best guns in the game. Minus the Mk108 for special occasions.

Edited May 15, 2021 by ZachariasX

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

4 Hispanos in Hurricane are the beast, they rip apart 109s and 190s in no time. I love this loadout with this slow and angle fighter. My Camel without stal in ww2 ?

Edited May 15, 2021 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[sturmkraehe]

Ok, maybe we should plea for a four cannon spit then

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, sturmkraehe said:

Ok, maybe we should plea for a four cannon spit then

 

Hardly any of those were made and aren't relevant for the time periods and theaters IL2 simulates.

[ZachariasX]

...and where they were fielded, they would remove two cannons due to weight issues. The main rationale of putting 4 cannons on the Spit was because of the frequent jaming. Having more guns meant chances that something is left that still shoots is higher. But Malta Spitfires suffered already from their air filter. Adding weight is then not top of the wanting list.

[oc2209]

12 hours ago, ATA_Vasilij said:

thanks for the huge testing...

 

In my opinion such calibre as 30 or 37 should give much worse damage on planes. Even the first hit !

 

I did a few more and recorded them, to capture the moment of impact.

 

The following 2 screens are of the same test. Yak-9T, 37mm HE ammo.

 

 

 

In my opinion, the above strike should be 100% fatal to the pilot. No chance of survival. At the very least, his right leg would be hamburger. Should cause temporary loss of consciousness if not instant death. Upon regaining consciousness, the pilot state should be 'heavily wounded'. Which at this altitude would result in a crash.

 

Second test, same Yak and ammo:

 

 

This one's a little harder to decide whether the pilot would take shrapnel. Again, probably his feet would be hit at least. The seat armor might protect him from a fatal hit. However, that said, the fuel tank should've been hit, you would assume.

 

Now, here's the result of a German 30mm hitting the same area:

 

 

Fuel tank explosion.

 

So my conclusion is not that German planes have greater survivability, as much as it appears Russian HE ammo (specifically 37mm) is underperforming against any target.

[oc2209]

Sorry to beat dead horses, but for the sake of thoroughness, I tested against the Fw-190A-5. I put some extra guns under the wings to slow it down and make it an easier target for precision shooting.

 

Yak-9T, 37mm HE ammo:

 

 

 

As you can see, the strike on the upper part of the wing knocked the landing gear off. Meaning that penetration is being modelled in HE rounds... yet the pilot seems very lucky to avoid shrapnel.

 

The following shot is against the same plane as above, in pretty much the same location. An engine fire resulted this time, but the pilot still wasn't knocked out or killed.

 

 

This next test is in a 109G-6 Late with a 30mm, versus a Fw-190A-5, same loadout as above.

 

I can't seem to fire the 30mm one shot at a time; it's always 2 rounds used per trigger press. The first shot hit the engine, stopped it instantly. Second hit the wing.

 

 

 

Above shots fired from this angle and distance:

 

 

Second test:

 

Interestingly, the wing strike knocked off the elevator; there was no wing debris causing the elevator detachment.

 

 

2 30mm strikes to the wing; the puff nearer to the fuselage was the first.

 

 

This final shot was instantly fatal to the pilot.

 

 

My conclusions from the earlier tests remain the same. German 30mm is more effective than Russian 37mm. Whether that's historically accurate or not, I can't say. But in one book I have, the 37mm is described as causing 3x3 foot holes in targets. It doesn't feel like the 30mm is too strong, as much as the 37mm damage output is too variable.

 

[ATA_Vasilij]

Thank you again for your deep testing.

 

I have the same conclusion from MANY hours of flying.

Soviet cannons are soo poor against German planes.

Namely: 

37mm cannon of Lagg3 is even worse than Vya 23.

But both of them are so useless against FW. 

Today again, I triggered continues shooting of Vya23 (mixed ammo) into Fw190 A3. Hits seen from very beginning of the plane through cabin to the very end. Approximatly 10 Vya cannons was hitting the plane. From close distance. I had a very long time to shoot. I was thinking ... The plane will dissappear like after nucelar weapon.

He continued to fly. Visible damage on the whole plane. Holes but nothing more. Engine still running at full. Maneuverability normal. He even continued to maneuver with me... Pilot healthy...

 

Can please somebody from the studio, from the Devs give us at least one anser? Or are we talking to the wall?

 

 

[gimpy117]

I agree, personally i think 30mm is overperforming because of its real life thinner walls and therefore less shrapnel. it makes a big bang, but it seems the pressure wave damages stuff way to far away. its like hand grenade blast radius currently.  

[oc2209]

I'm now thinking the issue is related to the way planes seemingly have dead spaces where multiple 30-37mm strikes do nothing.

 

Examples:

 

 

 

Above are two different 30mm strikes delivered from a 109G-6 Late on a 109F-2. Nothing detached after either shot. I've seen this on the P-51 as well; it's like a dead spot in the fuselage just ahead of the tail. It's my opinion that 2 30mm hits on almost any plane's rear fuselage should blow the tail clean off. Especially at the narrowest part of the fuselage where the blast radius must surely match or exceed the width of the airframe at that location. The frame would be shredded and presumable severely weakened structurally.

 

Here's another:

 

 

No significant effect.

 

 

This one is not an optical illusion. I watched the tracer and my nose alignment; the shot missed over the top of the fuselage. But it detonated against the propeller (evidently) with no damage indicated anywhere. Least of all the prop itself. Even if it didn't detonate, the shell should destroy or damage the prop, right?

 

 

The above shot didn't cause anything to detach.

 

 

This shot blew off the vertical stabilizer. I suspect it did so only because the tail was already damaged by the first 30mm direct tail hit.

 

 

And another dead prop hit. No joke, two in one sortie. I normally don't make this many replays and watch in slow-motion.

[354thFG_Rails]

Lol welcome to the ballistics complaining club. You’ll be led down the rabbit hole more and more. And be disappointed more and more. Just aim better. 

[KoN_]

On 5/14/2021 at 2:38 PM, ATA_Vasilij said:

HI pilots,

 

Some question put into the air:

 

 - is it OK if I shoot 3x37mm (Lagg3) into the fuselage of Fw190  - from the clear six... from around 400 m so very close, ane I see big explosions and the planes continue to flyi? Even without loosing speed?

- Is it OK to shoot all ammo of my VyA23 mm into the FW190 A3 and it continue in fly and seems like nothing caused him several damage ?

- is it OK to get On small hit into my Tempest wing (only one small visible black hole - nothing severe, and my plane is almost unable to fly? Hard to turn, immediate loosiing speed like Imy plane carry 5tun payload? 

- Is it OK To shoot my vYa23 cannon from the very top to the very end of Bf109 body I see visible hits all there. And the shoots went through the cabin (pilot) and He still continue to fly and not even PK? Do you know that only one small machinegun can kill the person ? Not considering the cannon going through his body and nothing?

 

Since when are pilots immortal after cannon hits, is this a simulator or parody to the arcade?

 

and small points which I still see:

- BF crashing the ground from high alt and staing in one piece no explosion and even the propeller still turns even when halůve is in under the ground, lol

- Parachute bailing out. Why german pilost can ALWAYS get out even if in high diving speeds? And allies pilots almost always stay in the cabin ?

 

etc. etc....

 

WHEN can we expect some fixing?

Cheers.

 

I am really upset what the sim behaves afters last updates....

 

 

 

They will ask for video evidence . No longer is your word taken as truth .