Tactical Air War,vote for changes of basic planeset on next war

[=AD=Str1ke]

Hi all! The end of first map is near,

IMHO there is some disbalance in plane set.

we need to vote to note that, plz vote, it's important.

 

I think that there is need to remove Mig-3 from basic line, to see fights I16 vs Emil on first map or give to blue F2 as basic (it will be historical and balanced)

And bombs only on Emil and I16

F2 vs Mig without bombs

 

Please write down you opinion.

 

This vote will valid only for the next war

 

Best regards,

-=RedS=-Strike

Edited May 10, 2021 by SG152_Walter_Hagen

[ITAF_Airone1989]

It's wrote in the manual: no changes during the campaign.

 

[=AD=Str1ke]

6 минут назад, ITAF_Airone1989 сказал:

It's wrote in the manual: no changes during the campaign.

 

Forgot to write it, thx.

[=AD=Denisik_FL]

25 minutes ago, SG152_Walter_Hagen said:

Hi all! The end of first map is near,

IMHO there is some disbalance in plane set.

we need to vote to note that, plz vote, it's important.

 

I think that there is need to remove Mig-3 from basic line, to see fights I16 vs Emil on first map or give to blue F2 as basic (it will be historical and balanced)

And bombs only on Emil and I16

F2 vs Mig without bombs

 

Please write down you opinion.

 

This vote will valid only for the next war

 

Best regards,

-=RedS=-Strike

Don't do casual things. Everyone understands the problem, the bruises are used to being "fighters", but in real life they flew attack aircraft, and did not fly across the entire Moscow zone in search of the enemy.

[JetRo]

These changes had to be made during the testing period. But since the blue side did not really want or thought it would work out that way, the result in this case is obvious ...

[=19GvFAB=Vlad-Executor]

Make armored plates on emils optional

[LLv24_Veccu_VR]

Mig3 to advanced plane... if something need to be done.

Edited May 10, 2021 by LLv24_Veccu

[KOHAH]

Remove mig from basic line.

[LLv24_Kessu]

I agree on this: F2 and Mig-3 as basic planes - with no option to take bombs or rockets.

F2 and Mig 3 are reasonably close to each other in performance.

 

Also - if they don't have bombs - we would see more Ju87s and I-16s for that historical feeling.

 

Option to remove Mig from basic line would create another balance problem - what would replace the Mig in Basic line then? Hence I like replacing the 109E7/B with 109F2 more... 109E7/B can be dropped to Blue Jabo line.

Edited May 10, 2021 by LLv24_Kessu

[Norz]

Drop a mig3 out from a basic line.

[Blakhart]

1 hour ago, LLv24_Kessu said:

I agree on this: F2 and Mig-3 as basic planes - with no option to take bombs or rockets.

F2 and Mig 3 are reasonably close to each other in performance.

Someone who is flying on one side only don't have any rights to dictate the rules because of lack of knowledge and understanding the problem.

With 16 CP there will be more advanced planes and BASICs will have smaller meaning. 

Also, the way how the questions were done is in favour to downgrade red side. 


 

Edited May 10, 2021 by =LG=Blakhart

[Norz]

1 hour ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

..

..

 

 Did someone from a red team claimed before that a mig3 is not good enough as a 109f2?

Edited May 10, 2021 by Norz

[=AD=Str1ke]

7 часов назад, =LG=Blakhart сказал:

Also, the way how the questions were done is in favour to downgrade red side. 

Because it's to good now, isnt it? This main idia of this vote.

 

There is disbalance now in basic planes and to deny it stupid.

You talk that blue must attack ground targets, they attcaking, but not so effective because initiative always on red side.

Red side now have Better plane + i16 is bad, Emil is very good but not vs mig. qauntity on a red side

You said that quality must be on blue side, where it is?

adv plane of blue side is good emil is bad, in dogfight its good , at this server it is not dogfight most of the time, it have good turn and weapon, but without armor, with its to heavy and inert

you can, change some setup of mig, i think Mig must be without bombs, must have rockets for example. And make light emil, and it will be ok.

 

Don't forget that red side have adv planes too...and it's good.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by SG152_Walter_Hagen

[Norz]

I am disappointed (or not? it was obvious that most of reds would answer this way after all these unbalanced years).

 

20 reds voted,  13 answers - Stay as it is now (all reds?).

Let us enjoy 109e7 life style before a campaign ended:)

 

Spoiler

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Norz
picture

[=19GvFAB=Vlad-Executor]

2 часа назад, SG152_Walter_Hagen сказал:

Red side now have Better plane + i16 is bad, Emil is very good but not vs mig. qauntity on a red side

 

Emil is better than mig in a bend, but slower.

F2 is worse than Mig in a bend, but faster

[LLv24_Kessu]

8 hours ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

Someone who is flying on one side only don't have any rights to dictate the rules because of lack of knowledge and understanding the problem.

With 16 CP there will be more advanced planes and BASICs will have smaller meaning. 

Also, the way how the questions were done is in favour to downgrade red side. 


 

Hello Blakhart,

 

Thank you for answering and building this campaign!

 

for the record - I'm not dictating anything - I'm voicing an opinion due the vote above. Plane set and balance are LGs responsibility - and my interest in this is to provide feedback to help make TAW better, more balanced and more interesting for all participants. Also for the record - LLv24 has flown eastern front campaign on the red side under different squad name - once - but hey -  who's counting ;-)

(btw - MIG-3 was my favorite red fighter at the time, though mostly I flew PE2).

 

Originally I planned to share my opinion after all of TAW is done, but maybe it's better to do that while running as the feedback is then more relevant per map?

Comment at above charts:

#1- the max power of F2 (and E7/B) is only available for 1 minute - this is not irrelevant, but IMO the 1.35 ATA power (3 minutes) is more relevant as "the fights" typically last a lot longer than 1 minute. Unfortunately this curve is not in the chart.

 - I define "the fight" starting from the moment the enemy is spotted, and ending when the contact is lost

 - For 1.35 ATA we know (from IL2 Wiki):

                          - sea level speed 528km/h

                          - speed at 2000m 563km/h

                          - speed at 5000m 606km/h

 - Assuming linear line between data points (not true, but close enough?):

 

#2 for MIG3 the boosted power can be utilized for 10 minutes, and I assume that this is the Max curve in the chart?

 - assuming majority of the fights are shorter than 10 minutes or thereabout, the Max power curve is the more relevant curve for Mig-3

 - also if we assume 3 minute curve to be the most relevant for F2, certainly 10 minutes is...

#3- in my philosophy, speed is life! The minute I start turning (sharply), I start losing energy and giving the fight away as I end up slow, and there is always that one more guy in multi vs multi who is then faster than I am. Hence - in my opinion, speed is the most relevant component of the comparison.

 

My conclusion and opinion - MIG-3 max power vs 109F2 1.35ATA power assumed curves are the MORE relevant for the comparison - and those two curves are quite close to each other. Close enough for the pilot to have a fighting chance in my opinion.

 

Above is my attempt to generalize - one can always find situations where above comparison is not true, but IMO: those are more dependent on the pilot, his capabilities and SA.

Anyhow: could you please provide similar chart on BF109E7/B vs MIG-3? A similar comparison - or one that you define is more relevant, would be interesting to make?

As according to il2 wiki data - 109E7/B is estimated 53km/h slower at sea level than MIG with all the required extras and after the bomb drops.

I would really like to see how that develops with altitude. Also, with all the armor carried, E7/B does not seem to be able to even turn with MIG - I could be wrong here, just my experience and not really tested with due diligence.

 

At the moment i hold opinion that F2 vs Mig would be MORE balanced than E7/B+extras vs Mig3+extras.

 

 

[Norz]

9 minutes ago, LLv24_Kessu said:

 

Anyhow: could you please provide similar chart on BF109E7/B vs MIG-3? A similar comparison - or one that you define is more relevant, would be interesting to make?

As according to il2 wiki data - 109E7/B is estimated 53km/h slower at sea level than MIG with all the required extras and after the bomb drops.

I would really like to see how that develops with altitude. Also, with all the armor carried, E7/B does not seem to be able to even turn with MIG - I could be wrong here, just my experience and not really tested with due diligence.

 

just for record: it is more than 53km/h. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Norz

[Blakhart]

42 minutes ago, LLv24_Kessu said:

 

 

Very good & interesting conclusions, now lets meet and make real tests group combat F-2 +Emil vs MiG3 +I16 , MiG3 vs F-2 etc 

 

And I'm not talking about checking who is better fighter pilot but how the numbers work all together in simulated combat in more than few engagement.

 

Also lets check how fast each plane can eliminate the enemy from the combat because this is very important aspect of TAW operations.

 

We did own tests, MiG is no match for emil, nor F-2 in combat, can pull less AoA, have worst arnament due to current fm/dm, not so agile, nor stable, terrible left hand turn and stall characteristic...

 

But yes only real engagement can prove it.

When we can meet to perform the tests?

 

 

(about the Emil with loadout vs MiG... Emil eats MiG alive, every mediocre Emil pilot can be awesome in such combat due to slots, flaps and vertical handling)

Edited May 11, 2021 by =LG=Blakhart

[Norz]

35 minutes ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

now lets meet and make real tests group combat F-2 +Emil vs MiG3 +I16 , MiG3 vs F-2 etc 

 

Blackhart, just one question. Did we do it all last years on the map 1, 2 ? What do you want to test?

 

Just small example: La5FN cannot turn as well as 109g2. Do you know any person that will prefer to fly Yak1b instead La5FN?

 

P.S. really?

Edited May 11, 2021 by Norz

[LLv24_Kessu]

Hi Blakhart,

 

the data is there already at TAW server. Honestly, there is hundreds of data points there already and these are the most relevant as number of data points eliminates the pilot quality and other factors from the data - question is, what statistics can be drawn from the server?

 

Number of sorties in each plane?

How many times did plane A shoot down plane B?

 

And maybe relevant from balance perspective: how many pilots reached advanced plane on Red vs Blueon map1  normalized to number of sorties flown and maybe to the plane flown?

 

Added to chart 109E7/B 1.30 Ata (3min) power (from IL2 wiki data points again):

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by LLv24_Kessu

[Blakhart]

2 hours ago, LLv24_Kessu said:

 

Thanks! 
 

3 hours ago, Norz said:

 

Yes its needed. 
We still miss I-16 as well.


We miss AoA vs Speed, climb rate vs speed and other important information which describe the anatomy of every aircraft.
The only way to check it is to make real tests.

When enemy aircraft is captured, the HQ guys want to have manual of this ship, or make simulated dogfights ,huh ?

If you guys are runing out from the practical tests, I don't feel the need of treating such dry theoretical data seriously.
I`m analysing this problem as a engineer of aviation and active pilot and expect a good level of understanding, so please be serious. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by =LG=Blakhart

[Norz]

29 minutes ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

If you guys are runing out from the practical tests, I don't feel the need of treating such dry theoretical data seriously.
I`m analysing this problem as a engineer of aviation and active pilot and expect a good level of understanding, so please be serious. 

 

What kind of help do you need to analyze raw data from 2016..2021? I cannot understand the problem. If you have not enough data how it is going with Mig3 vs 109f2 we can try to ask the statistics from "Wings of liberty" for a lot of years.

[Antiguo]

hi 

I have already voted

 

my suggestion is to have a line of bomber planes exclusively of bombers without having to spend a single minute flying fighter or attack planes

[=AD=Str1ke]

2 минуты назад, ALA13_Antiguo сказал:

hi 

I have already voted

 

my suggestion is to have a line of bomber planes exclusively of bombers without having to spend a single minute flying fighter or attack planes

and its good idia, but for another discussion...This topik about balance fighters.

[LLv24_Kessu]

8 minutes ago, =LG=Blakhart said:

Thanks! 
 

Yes its needed. 
We still miss I-16 as well.


We miss AoA vs Speed, climb rate vs speed and other important information which describe the anatomy of every aircraft.
The only way to check it is to make real tests.

When enemy aircraft is captured, the HQ guys want to have manual of this ship, or make simulated dogfights ,huh ?

If you guys are runing out from the practical tests, I don't feel the need of treating such dry theoretical data seriously.
I`m analysing this problem as a engineer of aviation and active pilot and expect a good level of understanding, so please be serious. 

Hi BH,

 

you are not the only engineer in the room.

 

what do you mean "we still miss I-16 as well"?

 - Missing I-16 speed vs 109E7? - I am discussing above of the the Basic fighter plane balance, 109E7 vs Mig - you would not compare Mig to JU87 either? Should we wish to discuss strike plane balance I-16 vs JU87 -  I think I-16 can hold it's own? And from I-16 perspective - it does not make any difference if it's shot down by 109E7 or F2. 109E7 has the advantage vs I-16 - that is why I did not think of removing MIG-3 as a good idea. Removing MIG-3 would switch the balance to favoring blue.

 

At the moment - MIG-3 dominates 109E7/B. MIG can freely choose when to engage and when not, when to pull out of the fight. Sure - if you start maneuvering - you will play to 109s strengths... but same is true for Me262 and P51, and you would not call that balanced - right?

Even in F2 - 109 pilot has roughly 3 minutes to end the fight in his favor, and not even that if he wants to keep some reserves in his engine to disengage. 109E7/B pilot cannot even disengage - MIG can always run him down if the pilot so chooses.

AoAvs speed, climb rate etc - these are not as relevant as speed. I'm not saying they are irrelevant either, but their usage is so much more situation dependent and how the pilot matches his planes capabilities to his situation. Speed get's you the ability to choose what you do.

 

The real test is running 24/7 on TAW server - all the statistics are there already. And they've been been pulled out before - I believe Kathon(?) has the scripts for it. I'm not running away from testing anything - but as long as the campaign i running - I choose to fly there the little time that is available to me for flying.

The TAW server statistics will give you the relevant numbers, should you choose to pull them out.

What exactly is the data that you cannot pull out from there that needs a separate test?

 

As you being an aviation engineer, I cannot believe that you seriously suggest that 109E7/B vs MIG3 is balanced when their speed difference is ~50km/h!

 

[LLv24_Kessu]

Please allow me to elaborate a bit more:

 - as MIG dominates the beginning of the map - Reds were successful in stopping most of the Blue team advancing to 109F2 or other advanced planes, especially those who fly on the busy hours (this is my perspective - yours to correct by pulling the relevant data from the statistic, please).

       - I guess developers had good intentions for the balance as F2 would come along later, but this never materialized in practice(?).

- in current status, Blue does not have a fighter that can protect it's strike planes, as it's 109E7/Bs are easy prey for faster MIGs

- should the 109F2 be available as the Basic fighter, but with no ground ordnance, large number of the blue team would still fly JU87 or other strike planes as there is no other way to win the map, but the 109F2 as a fighter cover would give these operations a hope of success.

- for same reason - MIG-3 ground ordnance should also be removed - so it's speed would match with 109F2, and so that Red strike planes would be utilized more.

 

IMO above changes would enrich the campaign.

IMO balance would be improved, though if Blue would then have a slight edge - is debatable.

[Blakhart]

Test. 

Tell me when, who with You and where.

Waiting.

Thanks.

[LLv24_Kessu]

As an engineer - you know that real life environment is the best test for any system as all the things you did not figure out to test, will come up. So tell me, why is the TAW statistics data not good enough for you?

 

Specify what you wish to test and how.

[Blakhart]

 

[Antiguo]

s

1 hour ago, SG152_Walter_Hagen said:

y su buena idia, pero para otra discusión ... Este tema sobre los luchadores de equilibrio.

  sorry 

[=AD=Str1ke]

23 минуты назад, ALA13_Antiguo сказал:

s

  sorry 

You have nothing to apologize for, just make vote about this, as in rules of TAW manual, RCP.

[JG700_Benek]

MIG to ADV planes

allow removing rear plate and armor glass from CP planes where aplicable - blue team was hit with many changes this season not many ppl are used to fly emil with armor and fighters with those rear plates and view changing glass

[Pepelaz]

Remove mig from basic line.

[Konig]

Remove mig from basic line.

[SE.VH_Boemundo]

Remove mig, option to remove E7's rear plate.

[SCG_Wulfe]

My "other" suggestion.... give it more time before we worry about plane set and balance winning the war for one side or the other. Find ways to win with things how they are before deciding there is a need to manipulate the predetermined factors. Until that has been truly tried, how can we really determine what is needed?

 

The mindset shouldn't be to focus on a disadvantage in a specific area and then blame it for being insurmountable. The mindset should be to find whatever advantage you have and use it fully. It should be to find whatever disadvantage you have and find ways to overcome it. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by SCG_Wulfe

[FTC_Riksen]

Remove MiG as basic fighter but keep headrest in 109s. It was not historical to have them removed so why that should be the case here? Each plane has its pros and cons ... Having the steel headrest is one of them for 109s just like having a better climb rate than other planes. You have to adapt.

[VF-31_StuntPuppy]

So the TAW thread has been locked and unpinned at the request of the server owners?

 I have created a TAW discussion discord. Right here, permanent link. I will repost this as many times as is necessary: https://discord.gg/xkbHUN75Sw

Edited June 3, 2021 by VF-31_StuntPuppy

[=FSG=FRITZ]

Ogólne wrażenie kampanii jest takie samo: zgadzam się po raz kolejny odlecieć z kampanii na absolutnie tych samych układach i warunkach, ale tylko pod warunkiem, że autorzy serwera również polecą na niebieską stronę. Tylko ze względu na zainteresowanie i aby odczuć efekty swojej pracy po niebieskiej stronie.

[Pict]

On 6/2/2021 at 9:48 AM, VF-31_StuntPuppy said:

So the TAW thread has been locked and unpinned at the request of the server owners?

 I have created a TAW discussion discord. Right here, permanent link. I will repost this as many times as is necessary: https://discord.gg/xkbHUN75Sw

 

That's all good & well if you use discord.

 

============================

 

26 minutes ago, =FSG=FRITZ said:

Ogólne wrażenie kampanii jest takie samo: zgadzam się po raz kolejny odlecieć z kampanii na absolutnie tych samych układach i warunkach, ale tylko pod warunkiem, że autorzy serwera również polecą na niebieską stronę. Tylko ze względu na zainteresowanie i aby odczuć efekty swojej pracy po niebieskiej stronie.

 

 

Quickly translated;

Quote

The overall impression of the campaign is the same: I agree once again to fly out of the campaign on absolutely the same layouts and conditions, but only on the condition that the server authors also go to the blue side. Just for the sake of interest and to feel the effects of your work on the blue side.

 

This makes sense.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Pict