Volgograd renamed Stalingrad

[Mastermariner]

http://rt.com/politics/164700-stalingrad-veterans-putin-referendum/

 

Master

[Finkeren]

Makes sense to make it a referendum. Curious, what the result will be.

[Feathered_IV]

Should bring out some extreme reactions from certain people here. 

[Finkeren]

Well, if it's done for historical reasons to commemorate the battle and not the person and a plurality of the people who have to live there are for it, I don't see the huge controversy.

[DD_bongodriver]

I agree with Finkeren there.

[Sternjaeger]

well, with chauvinism being the latest trend in Russia, it wouldn't surprise me if Stalingrad would win by their usual 99.4% 

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"In 1961, Nikita Khrushchev's administration changed the name of the city to Volgograd ("Volga City") as part of his programme of de-Stalinization following Stalin's death, as he was trying to reduce the "cult of personality". This action was and remains somewhat controversial, given Stalingrad's importance as a symbol of resistance during the war. During Konstantin Chernenko's brief administration in 1985, proposals were floated to revive its historic name. There remains a strong degree of local support for a reversion but intermittent proposals have yet to be accepted by the Russian government."

 

Many historians agree that there were roughly 43 millions civilian deaths under Stalin (some estimates go as far as 60 millions, and both don't even take into account the military ones), they say that if you lived in Russia during Stalin's regime it's likely someone in your family or circle of friends (if not yourself) would have been "disposed of" by the regime.

 

I personally wouldn't want anything to even faintly remember or celebrate the name of such a monster whose regime cost the life of so many innocents, but hey, whatever rocks their boat.. Russia seems to be another of those countries with the deadly combination of a short historical memory and a desperate need for an identity..

 

Kinda makes "Hitlerburg" sound cute if you ask me   

Edited June 11, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[Finkeren]

If it was indeed an attempt to celebrate the person Stalin, then I might agree with you Sternjaeger, but this is supposedly about commemorating the important battle.

 

I never really considered "damnatio memoriae" to be a wise course of action, no matter how terrible the person, the only way we learn from history is by remembering it. I don't want to ban the printing of "Mein Kampf" either, even if it means that some nazi f*ck gets to read it aloud to his rapidly shrinking group of friends.

[DD_bongodriver]

Well knowing Stern as I do over similar matters, the concept of diminishing the significance of the true horror associated with people or events by side-tracking it in such a way doesn't sit well, but I believe in democracy and if the people want it then the people should have it and commemorating the positives has as much validity.

[Sternjaeger]

I think that we culturally still fail to comprehend the pure evil of Stalin.. 

 

Imagine there really had been a place called "Hitlerburg" where a great battle was fought, you think you'd see the Germans proposing a referendum for the sake of the historical battle? 

Edited June 11, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Next we will see Saint Petersburg be renamed Leningrad again, due it was besieged by Germans and thus a battle of the Great Patriotic War. I see this as a gimmick to bolster the power of current regime with a blatant use of the 2nd world war as a stepping stone.

[Finkeren]

We are still living in the bitter aftermath of the wars of 20th century, and many of its conflicts are still relevant today. Yet in my lifetime the memory of WW2 will become more distant, similar to that of Bismarck and the hegemony of the German Empire, then to Napoleon Bonaparte, and suddenly the scars are healed or at least other conflicts will have claimed the stage.

 

I read just today, that historians estimate that approximately 11% of the worlds population died as a direct consequence of the rule and conquests of Gjenghis Khan, a number far greater than anything Hitler or Stalin ever "accomplished". Yet there are monuments dedicated to him many places in Asia and Europe and he's celebrated in books and movies, often painting him in a quite positive light.

[Sternjaeger]

We are still living in the bitter aftermath of the wars of 20th century, and many of its conflicts are still relevant today. Yet in my lifetime the memory of WW2 will become more distant, similar to that of Bismarck and the hegemony of the German Empire, then to Napoleon Bonaparte, and suddenly the scars are healed or at least other conflicts will have claimed the stage.

 

I read just today, that historians estimate that approximately 11% of the worlds population died as a direct consequence of the rule and conquests of Gjenghis Khan, a number far greater than anything Hitler or Stalin ever "accomplished". Yet there are monuments dedicated to him many places in Asia and Europe and he's celebrated in books and movies, often painting him in a quite positive light.

 

not sure about being "celebrated", he's undoubtedly a popular historical character, and before Hitler himself probably e was even the most famous one.

 

As for "Asian standards", they didn't experience the horror of nazism, that's why in many countries it's actually celebrated with parades and "reenactors".

 

Uh and 11% of the population of the time, which is quite a different number compared to what we had in the '40s.. still an impressive number mind you!

Edited June 11, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[MiloMorai]

Today

1 in 200 men direct descendants of Genghis Khan

[taleks]

Stalingrad was Tsaritsyn for 400 years. If we want to grant historical name, why Stalingrad?

I know about battle of Stalingrad and others know; who doesn't know will not know after renaming, because they don't care.

Current name of city doesn't matter for memory at all, at least 50 years we lived without any problems with current name.

 

That renaming means a lot of government money will be spent (referendum, actual renaming of plates, titles, stamps, tourists and other paper materials, government online and electronical systems, etc). This money may be spent on veterans and related organizations without such pompous activities. It would be much better for memory.

 

resume: I'm against it. In my opinion, it is just a way to use citizen's painful memories to boost nation's spirit in wrong direction.

[Mastermariner]

Just postpone all decisions for another decade and the only voices for a change will come from the grave.

 

 

 

Master

Edited June 12, 2014 by Mastermariner

[JtD]

I feel they want to rename Volgograd because some Russians need it as a reminder how great Russia once was, what it could achieve. Vain pride. I find this a poor thing to do, one should always look forward, in this case focus on what should be done in order to make Russia great, what it can achieve. In my home town so many buildings from the socialist era were torn down and replaced by reconstructions of the century old buildings destroyed in WW2 or thereafter. As if tearing down buildings could erase 40 years of history, or if rebuilding old houses would be the best for the cities future. Eventually, they'll end up with a city fit for the 19th century, some time in the 21st. Living in the past doesn't help the future, neither here, nor in Volgograd.

 

For commemoration of the people who died in Stalingrad fighting for a better future, they already have a world famous memorial on the Mamayev Kurgan. Renaming the city does not serve them at all.

[Finkeren]

Not to jinx anything, but can I just point out, how civil people have been around a subject, that has the potential to blow up in a flame war.

 

Cudos to you people for keeping it real

[DD_bongodriver]

it's like we're all growing up

 

Here's a thought, how about renaming the historical battle to the 'Battle of Volgograd'?, arguably the city was always identifiable as Volgograd.

[Finkeren]

Here's a thought, how about renaming the historical battle to the 'Battle of Volgograd'?, arguably the city was always identifiable as Volgograd.

 

 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand the fuse has been lit.

 

It was pleasant while it lasted

[DD_bongodriver]

[1./JG42Nephris]

Cant be serious to name a city again dedicated to a slaughter of 3- 20 mill people.

It would be less irritating if we would call Berlin Germania right now.

But it would mirror the temporary russian momentum in the world politics imho.

[Finkeren]

It was a joke. No worries  .

[DD_bongodriver]

[Sternjaeger]

Having said that, I often refer to York as Eboracum and to London as Londinium (probably because of my Roman ancestors  ), perhaps we should start a campaign to bring the Original Latin names of citiies back into the UK? 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[DD_bongodriver]

Lets just bomb the crap out of the planet, back to the stone age where everywhere was called 'UGH!'

[Finkeren]

Well, I often refer to my city simply as "Havn" (litt. "Harbour") which was its name back in the early Middle Ages, when it was a nondescript fishing village.