clickable cockpits, what's the appeal?

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, unlikely_spider said:

 

 

Once in the Tomcat while in VR (if you may indulge me to speak about a modernish plane here for a moment), I was looking down at the radio panel to change the channel I was on. But the sun was shining directly on the panel and the LCD was washed out and I couldn't see the value. So I rolled my plane so that shadow crept across the panel and I could see the numbers, then turned the requisite knob to the channel I needed to be on.

Maybe that speaks more to the complex radio mgmt that DCS has vs GB, but it also directly involved interaction with the cockpit vs just hitting a keyboard combo or HOTAS switch to get what I wanted. The immersion is unrivaled and that moment really struck me as to how realistic things can be when done properly.

 

 

Sorry, but that is just silly.  In real life you would just block the sun with your hand.    

 

Instead you decided to convince yourself that gamey workarounds are real life.

[unlikely_spider]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I like that level of detail too. But you’re missing the fact that each DCS aircraft takes about 18 months to make and costs $49. For GB to incorporate that level of detail for 50 aircraft is impossible. 

 

Sure, I don't think anyone is disputing that. I just wanted to explain why clickpits appeal to me.

[AndyJWest]

Ignoring the cost, and the development time, the need to move into larger accommodation, having a fully-functional replica cockpit in a full-motion-simulator built especially for each aircraft type would appeal to me. 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by AndyJWest

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, AndyJWest said:

Ignoring the cost, and the development time, the need to move into larger accommodation, and the maintenance costs, having a fully-functional replica cockpit in a full-motion-simulator built especially for each aircraft simulated would appeal to me. 

 

It feels like the devs should do this for us if they really care about immersion.

[unlikely_spider]

10 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

Ignoring the cost, and the development time, the need to move into larger accommodation, having a fully-functional replica cockpit in a full-motion-simulator built especially for each aircraft type would appeal to me. 

 

 

Or just get a VR headset ?

[Enceladus828]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But you’re missing the fact that each DCS WWII aircraft takes about 18+ months to make and costs $49

Well, since 2012, 9 WW2 DCS planes have been added, and since 2013, 41 planes have been added by Team Fusion to the IL-2 Dover series, not including modifications and Trop. variants.

You can see how having a team fully committed to WW2 planes and making the cockpits only include items essential for flight and combat enables more planes to be made in roughly the same timeframe.

 

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, Enceladus said:

Well, since 2012, 9 WW2 DCS planes have been added

There are K-4, 190 A-8, 190 D-9, P-47, P-51, Spit Mk IX, I-16. That’s 7 completed aircraft. 

Mosquito and F4U are still in development, so not counted. And “since 2012” = 9 years!

Completing 50 aircraft at that pace would take 64 years! ?

7 hours ago, Enceladus said:

You can see how having a team fully committed to WW2 planes and making the cockpits only include items essential for flight and combat enables more planes to be made in roughly the same timeframe.

Yeah but having clickable cockpits without full systems is pointless because that level of functionality can be accomplished with a keyboard for much less cost. TF clearly operates at a loss unlike ED and 1CGS. And TF has no choice but to continue an already bad decision made in CloD. Perhaps it was not a good idea to give a bailout to CloD because now the fanboys will be saying “look we can have clickable cockpits” whereas in reality CloD bankrupted it’s original developer and that’s been forgotten now. 
 

And as far as I can tell, despite all these aircraft DWT offers nothing else. Does it have a career mode you can fly all 41 of these aircraft in? Because GB does. In lieu of operable magneto switches GB allows you to fly a full SP career, spanning several theaters, in every one of the 50 aircraft. In CloD and DTW there’s nothing to do in these planes but play with switches. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by SharpeXB

[AndyJWest]

12 hours ago, unlikely_spider said:

Or just get a VR headset ?

 

VR doesn't give tactile feedback. Or G forces. Or the pain in the right knee you get climbing into the pilot's seat of a DC-3, as you clout it against the elevator trim wheel. Which reminds me, I don't just want the cockpit modelled visually. It has to smell right too. Any DC-3/C-47 simulator for example that doesn't smell of avgas, Lucky Strikes, hydraulic fluid, burnt insulation, bacon sandwiches, deceased rodents and urine is clearly arcade. ?

[SharpeXB]

18 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

It has to smell right too. Any DC-3/C-47 simulator for example that doesn't smell of avgas, Lucky Strikes, hydraulic fluid, burnt insulation, bacon sandwiches, deceased rodents and urine is clearly arcade

Be careful what you ask for! ?

https://www.olorama.com/virtual-reality?gclid=Cj0KCQjwk4yGBhDQARIsACGfAetzw0Mcy_4i_YhMOvvyyrZV-Yd18h3Ca8YLVkhc887o3KYtP7PjHAcaAnU9EALw_wcB

Edited June 11, 2021 by SharpeXB

[AndyJWest]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Be careful what you ask for! ?

https://www.olorama.com/virtual-reality?gclid=Cj0KCQjwk4yGBhDQARIsACGfAetzw0Mcy_4i_YhMOvvyyrZV-Yd18h3Ca8YLVkhc887o3KYtP7PjHAcaAnU9EALw_wcB

 

The VR system seems to be limited to 10 smells. Clearly not enough to accurately model a DC-3 cockpit. Maybe the 40-smell VIP home theatre version might just do the job, at a pinch. We should probably ask  Dakpilot what he thinks about this. Are 40 smells enough?

 

Or maybe DC-3 pilots don't actually have a sense of smell any more, for much the same reason that they can't hear anything under 110 decibels...

[=621=Samikatz]

As someone who owns, plays and on the whole likes CloD/DWT, the clickpits are not part of that at all. I set everything up on take-off and then never touch my mouse again. If it's important, it's on my HOTAS

[Dakpilot]

1 hour ago, AndyJWest said:

 

The VR system seems to be limited to 10 smells. Clearly not enough to accurately model a DC-3 cockpit. Maybe the 40-smell VIP home theatre version might just do the job, at a pinch. We should probably ask  Dakpilot what he thinks about this. Are 40 smells enough?

 

Or maybe DC-3 pilots don't actually have a sense of smell any more, for much the same reason that they can't hear anything under 110 decibels...

 

Tricky one.. 

 

In Africa there Probably has not been  DC-3 which has not had sacks of kapenta in it, a tiny foul smelling dried/smoked lake fish, and they always spill out of the sacks and get down between the floor boards, goat wee is another not so nice one, some-one usually barfs, there is always and underlying sweaty smell from the loaders, 

 

Okapi or Gauloises are the smoke of choice, both pretty pungent.

Manioc/casava is one of the more common foods, pax more often than not have some stashed, roasted and wrapped in plantain leaves, unfortunately (to me) it is the only thing I've come across that manages to smell like puke and poop at the same time. 

 

Suprisingly DC-3 crew have a very finely tuned and highly trained sense of smell, most of the local brewery's use formaldehyde as an additive  and the odd employee can sometimes be a bit liberal when adding to the mix.. So you need a good nose to sniff out a wrong un, even when ice cold!! 

 

No toilet on a real man's DC-3

 

so you don't want to have had a few bad Simba's or an off Turbo King (yep it's a real beer)  and add to the mix! 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Dakpilot

[Enceladus828]

On 4/18/2021 at 1:31 PM, SharpeXB said:

CloD shouldn’t be held up as an example of anything except what not to do when making a flight sim. 

I would also say the same about Pacific Fighters and Flying Circus. Yes, those games didn't put the developers out of business, but they (along with the original CloD) are dishonorable mentions of the IL-2 series.

 

Even if CloD didn't have clickpits, based on all the other bugs such as this and this, as well as a statement from Buzzsaw Joke II :: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover Blitz General Discussions (steamcommunity.com),  it still would have ended in disaster for 1C and at best they would have packed it up after Moscow.

 

Also, I'd get DW-T over stand-alone Pacific Fighters any day; primarily because of a flyable torpedo bomber for each side and a great depiction of ships, things that PF didn't have.

[Voyager]

For WWI-WWII fighters, I don't really care for clickpits.

 

However, for modern aircraft in high fidelity, you just have to have them. The F-14 has more individual controls than I have buttons on my HOTAS or keyboard. I actually stopped playing LoMAC because I could not remember what all the hotas bindings I had were from flight to flight. It was just too many. 

 

And for some of the general aviation stuff, once your to the point where you are shuffling fuel between four different tanks, tuning two different radios and handling half of the billion circuit breakers that seem to be required for anything newer than 1930, it's just to many buttons to map everything, or even most of the things. 

 

That's especially true if you're talking about things that are only touched during startup or in flight emergencies. I'm not going to remember which key command is "pull the left engine fuel pump breaker" but I can remember where the breaker box is and read the labels until I find it. 

 

Also, sometimes you end up making things more complex by trying to make a generalized set of key binds for everything. The P-47 bomb release. It doesn't have any sort of ripple mode, or bomb count setting. Or a bombs vs tanks setting. What it has is three pull cords on the console. Left, middle, right. Just pull the cord and it drops whatever is on that pylon. Or grab all three and pull all of them. 

 

So in summary, non-click pits are preferable when the control count is fairly low and can be common for all aircraft. But it falls apart when you got zillions of controls, some of which are only infrequently used. 

[F19_Haddock]

Clickable cockpits might not be the ideal solution but at least it's a step forward. I think flight sims have been notoriously lazy when it comes to user interface innovation. Just dumping a hundred key bindings on the users. There! It's your problem now!

 

There've been very few attempts to develop more user-friendly interfaces, although both Aerofly FS and the new Flight Simulator are at least trying with relatively useful drop down menus and overlays.

 

And of course, mapping as many keys as you can on your HOTAS is the best way when in combat, but wasting a button on mundane things like the landing gear seems silly when I can just see the lever there, in front of me.

[Q_Walker]

I think that your post perfectly explains why having clickable cockpits doesn't make much sense. If we are only going to have the functionality for the mundane things such as landing gear, then what is the point in taking extra time to make it clickable? It seems silly to click the lever when I can just press the G key on my keyboard and have the exact same functionality of my gear going up and down. 

[LukeFF]

???

[F19_Haddock]

3 hours ago, Q_Walker said:

I think that your post perfectly explains why having clickable cockpits doesn't make much sense. If we are only going to have the functionality for the mundane things such as landing gear, then what is the point in taking extra time to make it clickable? It seems silly to click the lever when I can just press the G key on my keyboard and have the exact same functionality of my gear going up and down. 

Have you tried finding the G key with a VR headset on? 

[ITAF_Airone1989]

21 minutes ago, F19_Haddock said:

Have you tried finding the G key with a VR headset on? 

HFJKDG

[Q_Walker]

48 minutes ago, F19_Haddock said:

Have you tried finding the G key with a VR headset on? 

I have not.

[Lusekofte]

On 6/22/2021 at 7:06 PM, Enceladus said:

Yes, those games didn't put the developers out of business, but they (along with the original CloD) are dishonorable mentions of the IL-2 serie

No. Clod just had high ambitions. I always respect that. Still quick missions attacking convoys with stukas gave me real pleasure. It got stuck between old and new. And a mass emigration away from combat sims. 

I truly adore cod. I hope to fly it more in the future. It is the kind of cfs that constantly give room for progress and learning

[BraveSirRobin]

1 hour ago, F19_Haddock said:

Have you tried finding the G key with a VR headset on? 

Get VoiceAttack..

[Lusekofte]

20 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Get VoiceAttack..

I should do that. Good call.

I fly DCS. And like cod. But this clickable pit talk in this sim is nonsense. 

1. Ain't gonna happen

2.  "          "          "

3. It's  not needed

But they could make control interface profiles so we can have one for each plane

It would be great

[BraveSirRobin]

2 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

I should do that. Good call.

I fly DCS. And like cod. But this clickable pit talk in this sim is nonsense. 

1. Ain't gonna happen

2.  "          "          "

3. It's  not needed

But they could make control interface profiles so we can have one for each plane

It would be great

I don’t have VR, but if I did I’d use VoiceAttack.   
 

I do use an app called CCP so I can use my iPads as controllers.  It’s fantastic.

 

http://www.frozenpepper.it/ccp-2/

 

 

[Enceladus828]

I'm probably going to get a load of flak guns pointed at me when I say this... in this day and age, any sim with this high of a fidelity and Level of Detail must have clickable cockpits.

[Burdokva]

On 7/9/2021 at 7:47 AM, Voyager said:

For WWI-WWII fighters, I don't really care for clickpits.

 

However, for modern aircraft in high fidelity, you just have to have them. The F-14 has more individual controls than I have buttons on my HOTAS or keyboard. I actually stopped playing LoMAC because I could not remember what all the hotas bindings I had were from flight to flight. It was just too many. 

 

And for some of the general aviation stuff, once your to the point where you are shuffling fuel between four different tanks, tuning two different radios and handling half of the billion circuit breakers that seem to be required for anything newer than 1930, it's just to many buttons to map everything, or even most of the things. 

 

That's especially true if you're talking about things that are only touched during startup or in flight emergencies. I'm not going to remember which key command is "pull the left engine fuel pump breaker" but I can remember where the breaker box is and read the labels until I find it. 

 

Also, sometimes you end up making things more complex by trying to make a generalized set of key binds for everything. The P-47 bomb release. It doesn't have any sort of ripple mode, or bomb count setting. Or a bombs vs tanks setting. What it has is three pull cords on the console. Left, middle, right. Just pull the cord and it drops whatever is on that pylon. Or grab all three and pull all of them. 

 

So in summary, non-click pits are preferable when the control count is fairly low and can be common for all aircraft. But it falls apart when you got zillions of controls, some of which are only infrequently used. 

 

That's all very true and related to how humans learn. If you were in the real cockpit, many of those operations would be cognitevely easier - they might be more difficult physically but over time, you develop "muscle memory" and intuitively know where each gear, know or switch is.

 

Not so much with a keyboard and computer peripherals, much less if you fly different machines. Heavens help you also don't work on that same setup, because then the key combos become so overwhelming virtual flying can become exhausting (at least for me).

 

I would all for full fidelity cockpits and planes but aside from the development time, keep in mind that not everyone can afford a replica cockpit, top tier PC hardware and peripherals, much less for several different machines. 

 

And what both the original Il-2 (FB, PF, 1946) and Il-2:BoX benefit from, is that they've tapped into the Central and Eastern European market that were, before 2001, completely ignored by flight sims. People in those regions generally can't afford such a setup while they can afford the sim + installments. Even in Western Europe and North America, people who have top tier setup are in the minority of an already niche market.

[AndyJWest]

If I was to ever build a dead-horse-beating simulator, I'd be sure to include all the options. VR, G-forces, tactile feedback, every known controller option from trackball to brainwave-reader-control (now apparently a real thing!), and bi-nasal deceased-equine-odour-generator. And even with all this, I'm sure someone would still complain.

 

 

[Enceladus828]

I doubt anyone would buy Andy’s dead-horse beating simulator, let alone a dead-horse beating simulator.

[Fouldespiser25]

For me its simple.  I want to learn how to operate an aircraft the real way not learn another of 100s of joystick programming layouts, lol.  Most importantly is in VR.  I simple don't have enough buttons and having to remove the headset is a game killer.

 

Everything about IL2 is better than DCS except no clickable cockpit which to me is crazy.  We are in 2021 not 1987.

On 7/21/2021 at 7:03 PM, BraveSirRobin said:

I don’t have VR, but if I did I’d use VoiceAttack.   
 

I do use an app called CCP so I can use my iPads as controllers.  It’s fantastic.

 

http://www.frozenpepper.it/ccp-2/

 

 

I have used VA but I use my speakers, usually really loud.  Not sure why VR headset companies mount there own horrible headphones.

On 6/11/2021 at 8:42 AM, AndyJWest said:

 

VR doesn't give tactile feedback. Or G forces. Or the pain in the right knee you get climbing into the pilot's seat of a DC-3, as you clout it against the elevator trim wheel. Which reminds me, I don't just want the cockpit modelled visually. It has to smell right too. Any DC-3/C-47 simulator for example that doesn't smell of avgas, Lucky Strikes, hydraulic fluid, burnt insulation, bacon sandwiches, deceased rodents and urine is clearly arcade. ?

But VR makes you feel like youre in reality instead of inside a movie.

Nobody would be forced to use clickable cockpit.  If you prefer KBs fine.  But for the love of god give us the option to use a clickable cockpit.

[Enceladus828]

On 6/10/2021 at 6:40 PM, Enceladus said:

You know, I recently used the search function before everything got messed up with that, and the last time the developers (Jason in this thread) addressed this was back in May 2017. 

 

On 6/10/2021 at 7:07 PM, BraveSirRobin said:

How frequently do you have to be told that they’re not adding clickpits before you accept that they’re not adding clickpits?

 

Back in May 2017 if you asked the devs where they were going after BoK, they would probably still have said Pacific. If you asked them where they would go if they couldn't do the Pacific, they would most likely say that they would go to an area with planes that most people would be familiar with -- late war Western Front. If you asked them their thoughts on doing a module dedicated to making 10 playable tanks and made to higher standards than the 2 previous tanks, and rebuilding RoF in this game engine, they would probably say that the former is more likely to happen.

 

1 hour ago, Fouldespiser25 said:

Nobody would be forced to use clickable cockpit.  If you prefer KBs fine.  But for the love of god give us the option to use a clickable cockpit.

Agree, what other modern day flight sim with this level of detail and fidelity (not an arcade game like WT) doesn't have clickable cockpits?

[BraveSirRobin]

2 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

 

Back in May 2017 if you asked the devs where they were going after BoK, they would probably still have said Pacific. If you asked them where they would go if they couldn't do the Pacific, they would most likely say that they would go to an area with planes that most people would be familiar with -- late war Western Front. If you asked them their thoughts on doing a module dedicated to making 10 playable tanks and made to higher standards than the 2 previous tanks, and rebuilding RoF in this game engine, they would probably say that the former is more likely to happen.

 

 

Are you trying to make a point with this word salad?  Jason has said repeatedly that they're not adding clickpits.  There is no reason to add clickpits at this time.  Maybe if they do something with modern jets they'll be forced to add clickpits, but that will absolutely require a very heavily updated game engine.  Which they have not announced.  

 

So you're not getting clickpits.  Sorry.

1 hour ago, Fouldespiser25 said:

Everything about IL2 is better than DCS except no clickable cockpit which to me is crazy.  We are in 2021 not 1987.

 

 

In a few months it will be 2022.  And this game still won't have clickpits.  It's not crazy at all.  Clickpits are a money sucking waste in a game like this.  It does not need them.

[AndyJWest]

1 hour ago, Fouldespiser25 said:

...for the love of god give us the option to use a clickable cockpit.

 

'Give us'? Paid for how, exactly? 

 

If you want such features, fine. They can be provided, if a developer choses to do so. At the prices the developer sets. And on the development timescale such features take: see DCS.

 

You aren't going to get them free. The world doesn't work like that.

 

 

[unlikely_spider]

And if they ever did implement clickpits I think BraveSirRobin would spontaneously combust due to how vehemently he monitors this thread to tell new commenters right away that there will never be clickpits ??

[Enceladus828]

11 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

At the prices the developer sets. 

...

You aren't going to get them free. 

Well if that's the case then I guess the developers should charge us for every new feature that gets added to the game: Drop Tanks for the Bf-109, Drop Tanks for the P-51, and so on, every new ship including the Liberty class vessel, Air Marshal, AQM, Paratroopers, new American pilot models, etc, etc.

[LukeFF]

35 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

Well if that's the case then I guess the developers should charge us for every new feature that gets added to the game: Drop Tanks for the Bf-109, Drop Tanks for the P-51, and so on, every new ship including the Liberty class vessel, Air Marshal, AQM, Paratroopers, new American pilot models, etc, etc.

 

What exactly do you think the overall cost of BON covers? It's all of those things you just listed.

[BraveSirRobin]

52 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

And if they ever did implement clickpits I think BraveSirRobin would spontaneously combust due to how vehemently he monitors this thread to tell new commenters right away that there will never be clickpits ??

Not so much, actually.  It’s a complete waste of resources, but if they want to waste those resources that is their problem.  
 

Look at the coop server option.  I thought that would be a complete waste.  They did it anyways.  I did not spontaneously combust.  But I do have a good chuckle when I see that there is almost no one running coop servers.

[Enceladus828]

20 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

What exactly do you think the overall cost of BON covers? It's all of those things you just listed.

Not exactly, at a bare minimum it covers the 12.5 planes, the map -- actually 2 maps -- Pilot Career, paratroopers, ground objects and vehicles, landing craft. The rest of the things that I mentioned like Drop Tanks, AQM, and Air Marshal feature are not part of BoN and are for the game as a whole. Therefore, if Andy says that we want these features, we're going to have to pay for them. Paying for BoN gets us all the things I mentioned in the top line, but the things mentioned in the second line I guess are things that if we want them, we're going to have to pay for each one of them to be added to the game.

[LukeFF]

I knew participating in this topic was a fool's errand. 

[BraveSirRobin]

48 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

Not exactly, at a bare minimum it covers the 12.5 planes, the map -- actually 2 maps -- Pilot Career, paratroopers, ground objects and vehicles, landing craft. The rest of the things that I mentioned like Drop Tanks, AQM, and Air Marshal feature are not part of BoN and are for the game as a whole. Therefore, if Andy says that we want these features, we're going to have to pay for them. Paying for BoN gets us all the things I mentioned in the top line, but the things mentioned in the second line I guess are things that if we want them, we're going to have to pay for each one of them to be added to the game.

 

Yeah, exactly.  When you buy any of the modules or collector aircraft you are paying for everything else that they develop.  How else do you think that stuff is paid for?  It seems like that should not have to be explained, but here we are... 

[Enceladus828]

2 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Yeah, exactly.  When you buy any of the modules or collector aircraft you are paying for everything else that they develop.  How else do you think that stuff is paid for?  It seems like that should not have to be explained, but here we are... 

Wow, you don't understand the fact that I was just being rhetorical in my statement.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Enceladus