Oculus rift support

[xnomad]

I hope that any new developments take this technology into consideration; as something like this is surely going to replace TrackIR.

 

http://www.oculusvr.com/

[Blitzen]

Oh yes - on my Christmas list if supported bt BoS!

[Jason_Williams]

We're not against it since it seems to not interfere with TrackIR patents, but we haven't played with it yet.

 

Jason

[71st_AH_Hooves]

We're not against it since it seems to not interfere with TrackIR patents, but we haven't played with it yet.

 

Jason

 

I am SO glad that you are receptive to the idea of implementation. I am gettng a dev version and have already started putting a bug in the ear of driver devs to take a look at the rof engine for use with the oculus. It may be implemented for the engine way before the BoS hits the shelves. Ill keep this thread posted with all my future findings!

 

 

[Skoshi_Tiger]

It would be good if you could keep the community informed on your progress with the Dev Kit where possible. I expect there would be Non Disclosure Agreements etc, but it the project looks really interesting.

[AdlerAngriff]

Very Interesting. Thank you for the info, I had no Idea that something like this was in the making :O Just bought a Track IR myself

I don't want to be negative here but it'sjust that  there is a way to go from Idea and concept to successful implementation.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Very Interesting. Thank you for the info, I had no Idea that something like this was in the making

I don't want to be negative here but it'sjust that  there is a way to go from Idea and concept to successful implementation.

There have been a few of these around in the past, The Sony Glasstron range starting in 1997, but unfortunately the technology never quite kept up with peoples expectations.

 

The Oculus Rift will have some stiff competition if the new Sony head mounted displays become successful. (Though the sony looks like it is beeing marketed for 3D movie viewing. $800+AUD price tag is quite steep!)

 

It will be really interesting to see what price range they are going to going for and how well the technology matches our expectations.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Skoshi Tiger

[AndyJWest]

Sorry, but I can't see the Oculus Rift being usable in an air combat sim. See this article for why: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/when-it-comes-to-resolution-its-all-relative/

 

Basically, the problem is that they are trying to spread a relatively low pixel resolution (in modern terms) over a wide-angle display - and the numbers simply don't add up. Aircraft are going to be either invisible, or single-pixel dots, at far too close a range to be practical - and there is nothing they can do about it without compromising the field of view. The Rift apparently distorts the image to give higher resolution at the centre of the field of view (which is why you can't just tweak an existing game for it, you need a fundamental rewrite), but this will make peripheral vision worse. In the long term, if they can get head-mountable displays of very high resolution, they can solve the problem - but there isn't really any demand for such displays for other purposes, so they are unlikely to become available for some time - and when they do, they will need some fancy hardware to drive them.

[StiC]

Sorry, but I can't see the Oculus Rift being usable in an air combat sim.

Maybe not, but from what I've heard the level of emersion will increase dramatically. What worries me is if 3D can work in a flight sim where objects a few inches away are displayed side by side with objects miles away.

[AndyJWest]

If you cant see enemy aircraft until they are right on top of you, immersion isn't going to be very high.

 

Regarding other 3D systems, people have has some success with these in RoF already, though there do seem to be some problems with it: see here for a long thread on the subject: http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=24096&hilit=3DVision

[71st_AH_Hooves]

THe Oculus is a HMD that finally hass some decent tech behind it, High resolution displays coupled with up to a 105 degree FOV, puts you inside the game like never before.  Trust me when I say when track IR first came out you had similar distrusters of its usefulness.  And now its a staple of Flightsim periphrials,  So have a little faith the only way to make things grow is to push the boundries of what is routine and what is the future.

 

And from what Im hearing roF looks AMAZING with Nvidias 3d setup, so steroscopic shouldn't be a problem in the DN engine.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Hooves

[AndyJWest]

have a little faith

 

Faith won't overcome the intrinsic problems with what is being attempted with the Rift. It is simple mathematics that it can't provide the angular resolution that you get using a normal monitor. It may well be a success with other games - especially if they are developed for it from the start, but air combat sims need high angular resolution for realism.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

You have lost me, explain High angular resolution. The Resolution of the rift is 1280 by 800 now with a better display aiming for 1920 by 1200.  How is that not high enough for Air Combat?

[Skoshi_Tiger]

To quote from the article by Michael Abrash  "A 30???

Edited December 13, 2012 by Skoshi Tiger

[71st_AH_Hooves]

the Viewing range for the oculus with the 7in display is supposed to be 105 degrees.  I understand the breakdown of the Pixels and resolutions but I feel that its still doo-able to concede extreme high resolution for the immersion that an HMD will provide.  That point aside, if you don't take the steps to begin to integrate this tech it will never reach its potential.  Hence "have some faith".   If you remember the first track IR sucked.  But the Track IR five is amazing!  Faith will get you there.  that and hard work.

[Phat]

They are already playing with higher res panels up to 4k in R&D so res wont be the problem. processing power will be.

 

From a reddit session by Palmer..

 

 

"Hi Palmer, thanks to you the VR revolution is happening a lot sooner than I thought it would. A few questions, admittedly pretty far out there:


1. Do you foresee releasing yearly or bi-yearly revisions of the Rift, or will the hardware follow a longer cycle akin to the consoles?


2. How far out do you think the FOV can be pushed? I totally want the optics to go past my nose. :D


3. According to Carmack, 20 ms is the "magic number" where your brain stops perceiving any latency. When do you think this can be achieved?


4. At what resolution would "diminishing returns" kick in, meaning that increasing the resolution won't appreciably enhance the experience? I'm guessing we're nowhere near approaching that point. And, of course, this is dependant on the FOV.


5. Are you familiar with the predictions of Ray Kurzweil? He's saying that by 2019 we'll have VR booths with haptic technology that's fully matured and is completely convincing. I think there could be an entire industry built around VR booths incorporating the Rift and some tactile force feedback.

 

palmerluckey! 5 points 3 months ago

1) It is hard to say at this point, time will tell. Probably not every single year, but whenever a large enough bump is possible, I would like to make it happen. 2) I have prototypes that go to 270 degrees. Just a matter of cost, money and rendering wise. 3) In the next few years. 4) Opinion varies, but I think it is a long, long time till we get to the point where we cannot tell the difference. At the current FOV, though, I think that 4k is the highest resolution that makes sense in the near term. 5) I am familiar with Ray. He makes a lot of far out predictions, but I think fully immersive VR by 2019 is within the realm of possibility"

[AndyJWest]

Regarding angular resolution, you can get a rough idea of what this does to aircraft recognition say by running RoF or CloD  at 640 x 480, with a middling zoom. Without icons, you'll not be able to see aircraft more than about I km or so away, never mind recognise them. Tracers become invisible almost as soon as they leave the gun too, which won't help with aiming. Yes, you'll have a wider field of view, but only at the expense of not being able to see details that the sim expects you to. Note too that you'll get no benefits at all from 3D in combat - the low angular resolution will effectively cancel out the differences between the two views even closer than the 20 m or so at which it ceases to be significant in real life.

Edited December 13, 2012 by AndyJWest

[hegykc]

I don't see how "pixels per horizontal degree" is of any relevance. I might be wrong.

 

Here's a 22'' 16:9 monitor:

 

 

So if I view it from 20 inches it's great - 38 pixels per degree. But if I get close to 8 inches it becomes unplayable - 19 pixels per degree? Or if I move to 40+ inches it becomes double awsome - 77 pixels per degree?

It does make a difference but I don't believe it would be of such importance as to be a deal breaker.

 

Because that's what you get with a HMD, monitor that is much closer to your eyes. Isn't that the major reason why the field of view is much bigger?

If it's working great for movies and other games I don't see why it wouldn't be a revolution for flight sims, especially since it has head tracking implemented. 

[AndyJWest]

For a start, you've got to divide the resolution by two horizontally, as the Rift does to provide binocular 3D. The key point is that you are using the  960 horizontal pixels of  the display to cover a 110-degree field of view. Cut your resolution by two, zoom right out (if you can display zoomed that far...) and then see what it looks like. There is nothing complex in this. A standard monitor simply packs more pixels-per-degree into the display by (a) not having to provide binocular vision, and (b ) providing a smaller FOV. There is also the fact that you can zoom the display on a monitor - start doing this with the Rift (assuming the software allows it at all), and the whole 'VR' effect is likely to become less convincing.

 

There may be other significant issues with the Rift too - there are real questions as to whether the hardware optics will be usable by people wearing glasses, and there have been reports of headaches and nausea resulting from usage, as has occurred with other 3D systems. And then there is the problem that you can't see anything in the 'real world'. Not a problem in a FPS you can play just using a gamepad, but how will you use a keyboard?

Edited December 13, 2012 by AndyJWest

[hegykc]

They have to start somewhere. Aren't all new technologies problematic? Plasma TVs, 3D TVs, TrackIR etc... You can't expect it to work flawlessly from year one.

That way you can discard any new technology. Give it 10 years.

[AndyJWest]

 Give it 10 years.

 

Yup, absolutely. The technology will come. But BoS is being developed now. For existing hardware, and based on an existing graphics engine. Obviously, the decision is the developers to make - but I can't see them seriously considering incorporating Rift-compatibility into BoS. We've already seen what feature-creep did to CloD development, and all the signs are that the new team don't want to make the same mistake. Air combat sims are a niche market, and probably not the best place to be developing for untried hardware of questionable practicality. The developers will have higher priorities.

[hegykc]

Yeah. Still, I think somebody made a crucial mistake there. Comparing a monitor to a head mounted display. As the pictures show, a 22'' monitor from 20'' away gives you a 50 degree viewing angle. But a HMD displays are viewed at what, 1-2'' at best. Its only the smaller distance that increases the viewing angle. The same way that you can bring your 22'' monitor up to 8'' from your eyes, and there you go, you now have a 100 degree viewing angle. Is it unplayable because of that? It's still the same resolution as it was at 20" away, although angular resolution would suggest that it is 50% worse... it doesn't make sense to me.

 

Also what are the oculus display sizes in inches? because you can easily move them to a distance that would give you 38 pixels per degree or whatever you deem playable.

 

I think it's apple and oranges we're trying to compare here.

Edited December 13, 2012 by hegykc

[Sim]

As far as I know the first dev kits are shipping sometime early next year? The Hawken and Doom 3 BFG will support Rift by then. Plenty of time to test how the hardware works and if it's worth investing the time. I really wish the thing worked however

 

As for the keyboard issue - I don't really think it matters that much. If you bind all the important keys on the joystick - you should theoretically forget about the keyboard. And the chat can be replaced with Teamspeak.

[SimHog]

5" 1920*1080 HD Dispays are already in production: http://bgr.com/2012/10/01/sharp-5-inch-1080p-lcd-production/

 

All you need is two displays, one for each eye, and problem is pretty much solved in terms DPI.

 

Remeber the Oculus is a dev kit, the purpose is for people to experiment.

 

I think Jason should persue this technology hard, because it will be the furture for flight simming IMO. I'll be placing an order for dev kit in the new year.

Edited December 13, 2012 by CoderX71

[TX-EcoDragon]

As high performance taildragger pilot I can attest to the fact that one of most important things to a pilot of these warbirds is peripheral vision. Every takeoff, every landing, every pull to vertical, every unusual attitude recovery, every stall recovery and even just cruising along straight and level is made possible by utilizing your peripheral vision. Drift and alignment detection just doesn't happen in a narrow box over the nose.

 

One of the first exercises a transitioning pilot gets to do with me is fly in the back seat and stare at a bullseye post it note on the back of my head while doing their takeoff and landing practice...you LOOK there, but you SEE everywhere!

 

I can't wait for the day that we've got 180 degree FoV goggles...way better, and way cheaper than a 7 monitor setup! 

Edited December 13, 2012 by TX-EcoDragon

[SimHog]

As high performance taildragger pilot I can attest to the fact that one of most important things to a pilot of these warbirds is peripheral vision. Every takeoff, every landing, every pull to vertical, every unusual attitude recovery, every stall recovery and even just cruising along straight and level is made possible by utilizing your peripheral vision. Drift and alignment detection just doesn't happen in a narrow box over the nose.

 

One of the first exercises a transitioning pilot gets to do with me is fly in the back seat and stare at a bullseye post it note on the back of my head while doing their takeoff and landing practice...you LOOK there, but you SEE everywhere!

 

I can't wait for the day that we've got 180 degree FoV goggles...way better, and way cheaper than a 7 monitor setup! 

 

+1

[Skoshi_Tiger]

the Viewing range for the oculus with the 7in display is supposed to be 105 degrees.  I understand the breakdown of the Pixels and resolutions but I feel that its still doo-able to concede extreme high resolution for the immersion that an HMD will provide.  That point aside, if you don't take the steps to begin to integrate this tech it will never reach its potential.  Hence "have some faith".   If you remember the first track IR sucked.  But the Track IR five is amazing!  Faith will get you there.  that and hard work.

 

Like you said Hooves you have to start somewhere, and I give a lot of credit to the developers and to people like yourself taking the plunge and getting into the development kits.

 

Hopefully a few years down the tech this sort of tech will main stream, but until then  most of us will be relying on guys like you to relate to us your experiences.

 

Very interesting times ahead.

[FlatSpinMan]

Finally looked into this and it does look cool. No idea about the horizontal pixie revolutions or whatever you guys were blathering about, but man I hope it works.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

My understanding in that Oculus Rift won't be 6dof.  If this is true it could be a deal breaker for me, that is unless it will work with TrackIR.  Anyone know the story?

[JG27_Chivas]

My understanding in that Oculus Rift won't be 6dof.  If this is true it could be a deal breaker for me, that is unless it will work with TrackIR.  Anyone know the story?

Oculus Rift is 6DOF.   I believe 777Studios should be looking at this hardware very closely, the development kit that includes the Oculus Rift is only $300 dollars.   Game developers are looking at the Oculus Rift right now and making suggestions on the features it should have.  This is the future of flight sims, and flight sim developers should be front and center in its development.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

If this is true it could be a deal breaker for me, that is unless it will work with TrackIR.  Anyone know the story?

The OR has its own head tracking hardware included so a TrackIR would be redundant. The problem would be software compatability with the OR hardware, which is why people are asking the Devs to look into the technology.

 

TrackIR has it's own proprietry interface which many games have supported. Many of the TrackIR clones have hacked this interface to allow them to work. OR as a commercial product would not beable to exploit this (unless they licenced the technology from Natural Point -which is not very likely) and OR would need to come up with it's own software and convince game developers to support it.

[AndyJWest]

The Oculus Rift isn't a TrackIR replacement. It requires a fundamental rewrite of the application graphics engine to support it (the developers have repeatedly emphasised this point - it isn't going to support existing games). Whether it would be possible to support the Rift at all with the proposed BoS engine I've no idea - but even if it is possible, it may well involve far too much work to be worth the risk. As yet, the Rift is nothing more than prototypes, and a great deal of hype. Frankly, I doubt that the BoS developers will end up supporting it, given the many unknowns, and the limited resources and time they have available. 

[JG4_Sputnik]

To all of you nay-sayers, here's a video of the latest version from CES. The Verge Members are super tech nerds and have a clue what they're talking about. And they seem pretty impressed!

The best moment is when he ducks down becaus he's affraid of hitting his head. The immersion seems to be there.

But see yourselve and keep in mind that this is only a prototype, not to mention a dev kit, let alone the user version.

So this is day zero, it only gets better:

 

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/14/3876976/oculus-rift-demo

Also, they do it with fps, which imho, is not as good as if you would be sitting in a cockpit, not moving your body back and forward like you have to walk. I think the Rift best works with driving games and Flight Sims and Mech Games, where you actualy sit in a cockpit like you sit on your chair in front of your pc.

[AA_Engadin]

?

Edited January 17, 2013 by AA_Engadin

[71st_AH_Hooves]

It will have 6DOF, with the consumer version, they state that several times.  Its also possible that the Dev kit will ship with 6DOF as well.  Ill find out in MArch when I get mine!

[Bearcat]

I don't see this being in BoS.. I do see t more than likely being implemented in the next generation of 1CGS sim.

[JG27_Chivas]

This is the time the BOS developer and every other flight sim developer should be getting involved, especially now that the Oculus Rift developers are currently looking for input, before the consumer version is finalized.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

I think not giving this a try would be a mistake by 777.  I mean immersion is the name of the game in sims right?  Well here it is. FULL immersion in one package.  I can see maybe not including it after they try it due to to much modification of the engine, but not to at least try and support this is cutting them out of some very exclusive features.  Just having the support will drive in players looking for full immersion.  Don't say no to the prospect. 

[JG4_Sputnik]

Here's another vid from CES, best interview so far imho. They go deep into detail from a technical standpoint. So if you have any questions left about thech specs and how they want to accomplish full immersion, here you go:

 

[slm]

To me it seems like the next step forward from TrackIR.

Because of how the HW works there shouldn't be any tracking problems that TIR has had sometimes.

So for immersive game play - this should be very interesting addition, especially once they can improve the resolution from the initial 1280x800.