What Should Be the Next Setting for a Tank Crew Game

[M3Grant]

In my short time in this forum I have seen some discussion about what the next Tank Crew game should be. The most common suggestion is late war Normandy or Berlin, followed by the North African Campaign. I have added these options along with other ideas I find interesting in order to gauge what players want to see next.

Edited April 15, 2021 by M3Grant

[BlitzPig_EL]

I voted late North Africa.  Always been fascinated with this theater.  No cities to speak of, no masses of civilian population, just a pure tactical problem for both sides to solve, and a third player that was an enemy to both sides, the desert itself.

 

My second choice would be the ETO post D Day.

[M3Grant]

Yeah I voted for it too, for many the same reasons.  It seems to have some support behind it. There are a lot of interesting tanks too, in my opinion. with the M4 Sherman, M3 Lee/Grant, Churchill, Crusader, and M5 Stuart. Most want to play 44/45 Europe because they want to play the King Tiger/Jagdpather/Easy 8/Jumbo etc. Besides, it is one of the most famous theaters of war.

[LachenKrieg]

If anyone here knows, or remembers the TV series MacGyver, you might think of him like I do as a modern day Rommel of sorts. The man was basically given a couple sticks of gum, a shoe string, and the expectation he would accomplish what was next to impossible. The funny part is, he almost did it. Like you, I find this particular theater from WWII to be very interesting, and would love to see a Tank Crew module based on it. 

[MajorMagee]

One of the interestings about Rommel was that he was a long term victim of his short term success. His early victories around Tobruk allowed him to convince Hitler to let him continue his run to the East, instead of pausing for the long planned invasion of Malta. If they had taken Malta first it would of greatly improved his supply situation and similarly limited his opponent's supply lines in Eastern Libya and Western Egypt.

[M3Grant]

There is a nice group of Allied tanks to include in a North African Tank Crew game: The early Sherman variants, The Grant/Lee, Churchill, Valentine, Matilda, and Stuart, but there was less options for the Germans, with only the Panzer IV, Panzer III as contemporary options. Luckily there are some Italian tanks that are options too.

My ideal lineup for Tank Crew:Battle of El Alamein:

Valentine III, M3 Lee/Grant, Crusader III, and M5 Light tank vs. Panzer IV F2, Panzer IV F (Short 75mm) or Panzer III, Italian M14/41, and the Semovente da 75/18. 

 

The M3 could have some interesting modifications

1.Grant-Minus 50 rounds of ammo for a different turret shape with more armor.

2. US crew- US crew voices(locks Grant mod.)

3. Soviet crew- Soviet crew voices(locks Grant mod.)

4.No rivets- removes rivets(also reduces spalling if it is modeled(A1 or A2 variant)

5.No Sand Shield- removes track Sand Shield

6.M2 Gun-Changes M3 75mm gun to a M2 variant

 

The 37mm could fire canister shot so the cannon can act like a shotgun, the 75mm has American solid AP and German 75mm APHE

 

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by M3Grant

[ShampooX]

I'll throw one out for deabte: how about going back in time - invasion of France, or Dunkirk, maybe even the early months of Barbarossa.

[M3Grant]

Definitely some interesting options, Char B1, Somua S 35, R 35, Char D2, and maybe the Char 2C as a stand-alone or something because a tank that only had 10 examples produced would be weird. Also it is a WWI era battleship in terms of size.

 

Being the commander would be insane though, you have to aim the gun and spot targets.

 

Early Barbarossa would likely have:

KV-2, KV-1, T-34, T-70, T-60, T-50, T-28, T-35.

 

Early war would have interesting designs from before they really knew what would be effective

Overall I'm more interested in the North African campaign, but I'd enjoy it. 

[LachenKrieg]

20 hours ago, MajorMagee said:

One of the interestings about Rommel was that he was a long term victim of his short term success. His early victories around Tobruk allowed him to convince Hitler to let him continue his run to the East, instead of pausing for the long planned invasion of Malta. If they had taken Malta first it would of greatly improved his supply situation and similarly limited his opponent's supply lines in Eastern Libya and Western Egypt.

Rommel was well know for taking decisive action. Having to deal with the logistics of leading an armored force through the desert thousands of miles from home, Something tells me he was well aware of logistical obstacles, but simply refused to let them dictate the pace of his battle. Rommel was one of the first to recognize the importance of Malta, and how it would affect the campaigns outcome, but they were never able to secure a position for an all out assault. This by enlarge has little to do with the will of Rommel.

 

In terms of short term success, Rommel arrived on the scene and dominated it for two years with mostly an outnumbered force, where the Italian forces had uterly failed before his arrival. To give you an example, in November 1942, his forces were outnumbered nearly 2:1, but the allies lost approximately 14K men compared to approximately 7K on the German side. His story doesn't start, or end in Africa, but the fate of his battles was mostly decided by the mistakes and incompetence of others. 

[M3Grant]

I feel bad for the the crews who had to man the tanks with 2 pounders, no HE to fire against the German AT guns. At least Valentines, Matildas, and Churchills could generally survive anything other than field artillery and 88 mm flack. 

[MajorMagee]

Agree that there were other factors, but Rommel's direct request to Hitler on 21 Jun 42 to be given priority over resources so he could keep attacking East, precipitated the postponement until September (by which time it was already too late for an invasion of Malta to be successful), and eventual cancellation of the planned invasion. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1003811.pdf

Edited April 14, 2021 by MajorMagee

[Lofte]

These 4 are most interesting for me in following order

 

Battle of the Bulge (most interesting)

Eastern Front 1944/45

Battle of Normandy
Battle of Berlin

 

Voted for Eastern Front 44-45 out of chauvinist reasons

BTW is Battle of Berlin also Eastern Front, isn't it?

Edited April 14, 2021 by Lofte

[Fercyful]

COLD WAR ? I know ?

[M3Grant]

2 hours ago, Lofte said:

BTW is Battle of Berlin also Eastern Front, isn't it?

Yes, I split it up weirdly

[[1Tac]DisCHQ]

Easy any timeframe that allows for the m18 and I'm happy. Would love a t34/85 or su85/100 though.

 

[M3Grant]

I think a lot of people would agree with you, Normandy is most voted for right now, I expected that to be honest, these results are exactly what I expected they would be.

[40plus]

North Africa by a country mile for me but can understand why Normandy is a sexier proposition for most.

[LachenKrieg]

22 hours ago, MajorMagee said:

Agree that there were other factors, but Rommel's direct request to Hitler on 21 Jun 42 to be given priority over resources so he could keep attacking East, precipitated the postponement until September (by which time it was already too late for an invasion of Malta to be successful), and eventual cancellation of the planned invasion. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1003811.pdf

The North African campaign was as much a struggle to secure Malta, as the fight for Malta with ground forces would have been to secure North Africa. There were a number of reasons that contributed to each event throughout the war, and late 1942 was no exception. It would be a misinterpretation of historical facts to take any one maneuver in isolation without context. The strategic importance of Malta was well understood, as was the strategic importance of North Africa, but the risks of landing a ground invasion on Malta coupled with the bigger problem brewing in the East were only part of an ever expanding problem. Given the situation, had Rommel been able to breakout, he would have provided the much needed advantage the Axis forces were hoping for. It was pretty much a gamble either way. Too many fires, and not enough fire trucks. But if there was a battle for Malta option, would you vote for it?

 

 

[M3Grant]

If it was real, maybe. I don't know a lot about the AFVs on Malta, and while the close island confines might make for an interesting conflict, I don't know how the Germans would put AFVs on Malta, I would assume that an invasion of Malta would consist of a Naval Invasion (Possibly covered by the Italian navy) and paratroopers, but I know that the British would fight tooth and nail to defend the island. It would be an interesting naval battle, but who knows what would be the end result. It would be an interesting idea for a Ju-52 campaign, doing resupply missions for Afrika Corps, dropping paratroopers on various Mediterranean islands etc., but I don't see how a tank game could work. It might work with a redesign of paratrooper mechanics, with the troops attempting to take airfields and wreck havoc on troops and tanks moving to the beaches, but you could do all that with the Battle of Normandy.

If you have a big enough map, you could set up a German tank campaign where you play out the invasion of Normandy, including moving up to the front, avoiding ambushes from paratroopers, and engaging with the main allied force, before being pushed back.

 

I enjoy the lineup for the North African campaign more though. There is interesting designs and modifications present at that time, so you get even more variety out of the tanks in the lineup. I mentioned the modifications for just the M3 Lee/Grant up above, and it is a rather extensive list. The Italian tanks would be poor machines, but might match up well against the Stuarts, and the 75/18 is a match against most of the Allied line-up. The Valentine could shrug off nearly all fire, but could do little in return, so they would be better when coupled with the firepower of the M3's 75mm M3 gun's HE round, which could deal with the AT guns that were everywhere in North Africa at the time. The Crusader would have great AT firepower with the 6 pounder gun, while the Stuart had a M1919 in a Anti-Aircraft Mount, and could outflank the enemy tanks.

Edited April 16, 2021 by M3Grant

[LachenKrieg]

9 hours ago, M3Grant said:

If it was real, maybe. I don't know a lot about the AFVs on Malta, and while the close island confines might make for an interesting conflict, I don't know how the Germans would put AFVs on Malta, I would assume that an invasion of Malta would consist of a Naval Invasion (Possibly covered by the Italian navy) and paratroopers, but I know that the British would fight tooth and nail to defend the island. It would be an interesting naval battle, but who knows what would be the end result. It would be an interesting idea for a Ju-52 campaign, doing resupply missions for Afrika Corps, dropping paratroopers on various Mediterranean islands etc., but I don't see how a tank game could work. It might work with a redesign of paratrooper mechanics, with the troops attempting to take airfields and wreck havoc on troops and tanks moving to the beaches, but you could do all that with the Battle of Normandy.

If you have a big enough map, you could set up a German tank campaign where you play out the invasion of Normandy, including moving up to the front, avoiding ambushes from paratroopers, and engaging with the main allied force, before being pushed back.

 

I enjoy the lineup for the North African campaign more though. There is interesting designs and modifications present at that time, so you get even more variety out of the tanks in the lineup. I mentioned the modifications for just the M3 Lee/Grant up above, and it is a rather extensive list. The Italian tanks would be poor machines, but might match up well against the Stuarts, and the 75/18 is a match against most of the Allied line-up. The Valentine could shrug off nearly all fire, but could do little in return, so they would be better when coupled with the firepower of the M3's 75mm M3 gun's HE round, which could deal with the AT guns that were everywhere in North Africa at the time. The Crusader would have great AT firepower with the 6 pounder gun, while the Stuart had a M1919 in a Anti-Aircraft Mount, and could outflank the enemy tanks.

That's a very good point, and they did, but the answer to your question would be probably the same way the British did it. Both sides struggled to maintain supply lines. The Allies suffered just as much in this regard as the Axis forces did. The Axis forces in fact very nearly succeeded in choking off the Allied supply lines, but in the end their efforts failed. Not committing further German resources to Malta in late 1942 was not a decision made in isolation either. The Italian forces were largely tasked with maintaining pressure on the British naval/ground forces on and around Malta. But by late 1942, you can see that momentum had shifted in favor of the Allies on almost every front, and by the middle of 1943, it was really just a matter of time.

 

The most surprising result from the survey is that a Berlin battle didn't even get one vote. I though considering the large following of Russian players that it would have received a vote, or two. Maybe because it is really more of an extension to the Eastern Front, but like Normandy, the area involved is large enough that you could make a Tank Crew map out of it. 

[DD_Crash]

I think that any built up area would make close air support impractical on our servers, due to the massive number of objects required to make it convincing

[M3Grant]

True, a built up area would have to have lots of destructible objects, so North Africa would be better for air support. The North African Deserts would make it easier for AT guns and aircraft to find and shoot you, but it would be easier on graphics cards and servers, and there is no problems with invisible trees. I do hope they figure out how to model launching smoke though, because there is little natural cover in North Africa.

[LachenKrieg]

1 hour ago, M3Grant said:

True, a built up area would have to have lots of destructible objects, so North Africa would be better for air support. The North African Deserts would make it easier for AT guns and aircraft to find and shoot you, but it would be easier on graphics cards and servers, and there is no problems with invisible trees. I do hope they figure out how to model launching smoke though, because there is little natural cover in North Africa.

The line of sight works both ways remember. But if they would make a North African module, it would probably make sense that it would include more options for AAA fire. But I couldn't agree more, the smoke grenade thingy is something I really thought we would have seen by now. 

 

 

[M3Grant]

It does, but a Panzer 4 can pen almost anything on the allied lineup, so retreating is beneficial once in a while, and besides, you always want the first shot. Those 88mm saved the axis in those first years, the war could have gone much differently if they hadn't developed a AP shell for it.  

[LachenKrieg]

AP shell /;)

 

 

[M3Grant]

Yeah, the 88mm is one of the few things that can knock out a Valentine, the Panzer 4 F2's 75mm gun could too. Luckily it can only hit an AT gun with Solid Shot AP or ACNR so in a the gun is somewhat safe. Of course every other tank can fire HE and sometimes canister shot, so an AT gun can still be hit hard.

Personally I would like to see someone tank down a plane with Canister rounds.

[M3Grant]

The Italians had a good anti-aircraft gun, the 90/53 HA-AA gun, which was mounted on a truck and could serve as an interesting collector AA vehicle. Personally I would like to see a British Z-rocket AA weapon, but I don't think it was self-propelled.

If someone can find a British 1942 Self propelled AA gun, I would be very happy