So just what ratio of Russian fighters vs German fighters would be simulatin the Battle of Stalingrad?

[Uriah]

So I find the 109 planes out do the various Russian planes.  And historically the German pilots has a lot more experience than their Russian counterparts.   We know the Russians won the battle.  I don't know how it worked out in the air battle.  But it seems to me the Russians had to have had far more fighters in the air than the Germans. So given the things that favored the Germans in the air battle I am guessing the Russians had to make up for it my having a lot more fighters than the Germans.   So if I want to set up a some mission just what might be a good ratio of Russian fighters vs German fighters?

[Sokol1]

Luftwaffe at the beggining of Operation Uranus - period depicted in the game (posted on Russian forum - Google translate):

 

 

 

By mid-November 1942 at the direction of Stalingrad is the largest one, according to German standards, the air forces:

- Eight bomber groups: I. and III./KG1, I. and part II./KG51, 1. and II./KG55, as well as KG27 at full strength;

- Three assault groups: II. / StGl, I. and II./StG2;

- Four squadrons in direct support of the troops: Stab., 3,6, 7h8./Sc1i.G1.

At the same time, the 76th Bomber Squadron ever left the Eastern Front, was relocated from Armavir on the Mediterranean Sea. In Russia there were only a few crews from its membership. Luftwaffe fighter aircraft at Stalingrad still consisted of a squadron JG3 «Udet".

While all of these forces have a total of 330 aircraft were in good condition 127 twin-engine bombers, 67 ground attack aircraft and 64 fighters. In addition, as part of the 4th Air Force had 16 squadrons near intelligence, had 38 combat-ready aircraft "Focke-Wulf» FW-189 and 12 "Messerschmitt» Bf-110. Further exploration of the entire southern part of the Soviet-German front were only three squadrons - 3. (F) / Aufkl.Gr.lO, 3. (F) / Aufkl.Gr.l21 and 4. (F) / Aufkl.Gr.l22 , located fourteen serviceable Ju-88D.

 

 

 

VVS

 

 

At the same time the Soviet 8th, 16th, 17th Air Army and the part assigned to them the forces of the 2nd Air Army, and the 102nd Air Defense IBP had a total 1,916 combat aircraft, of which 1360, in t . h 519 fighters were in good condition. Thus, the numerical superiority of the Soviet Air Force was 4.5:1.

 

 

 

Fighters x fighters: 64 x 519 ~ 1:8.1 

 

Sokol1

Edited June 8, 2014 by Sokol1

[ShamrockOneFive]

Keep in mind that although the Russians had numerical superiority across the whole front it wasn't unusual for a small group of 4-7 Russian fighters to encounter 20 or more German fighters escorting a strike group. Sometimes the Germans had local numerical superiority even if it wasn't experienced across the whole front.

[Sandhill]

Consider too that the role of the fighters was by this point (19 November on) to intercept or escort bombers.  If two Bf 109's encountered a half dozen or a dozen various VVS fighters, it might not have been much of a match, but the goal of the 109's would not be to kill the VVS fighters but rather the 10 or 20 or 30 il-2's and Pe-2's  that they were escorting on the way to kill the fascist men and material on the ground.  No doubt fighter battles took place, but the fascists could certainly not seek them out, as the numbers did not favor them even if their kill ratios were very favorable.  Attrition favors the well supplied... 

[Sandhill]

Meant to include fascist transports in the above, same applies though...the Axis fighters might have been able to kick ass on VVS fighters trying to down transports, but still the point would not be a fighter battle but rather an escort vs interceptor battle, with fighter losses a lot less important to the VVS than to the Axis.  I read that early in BoB the Germans attacked a lot of British coastal shipping not because they wanted to sink little boats but to draw out British fighters as at that point attrition would have favored the fascists.  The Soviets famously lost battles and won a war...

[JtD]

"In the second week of December, members of II/JG 3 volunteered to man an airfield protection squadron loosely based on 4/JG 3 staff. Sharing all the privations and hardships of the garrison, including the reduced rations and incessant bombardments, these men set new standards of bravery and sacrifice. Despite the constant harassment from marauding Russian aircraft and artillery bombardment, the half-dozen men assigned here succeeded in downing 130 Russian aircraft between 12 December and 16 January 1943 when the field at Pitomnik fell to advancing Russians (24:108)."

 

A half - dozen fighters essentially was the German fighter force over Stalingrad after a while - and as long as the Germans send their supplies to the pocket through the air lift via Pitomnik, you'd have squadrons of enemy fighters and ground attack aircraft there every day. The Germans were happy to have two fighters to put in the way of incoming enemy aircraft.

Edited June 8, 2014 by JtD

[Uriah]

so an air quake of fighters is just not simulating the situation in any way shape or form and the best we could do is about 4 or 5

Soviet fighters vs 1 German.   I can see now that any air quake server that the Germans are going to totally dominate as there will likely almost never be 4 Soviet planes to one German.

[siipperi]

Keep in mind that although the Russians had numerical superiority across the whole front it wasn't unusual for a small group of 4-7 Russian fighters to encounter 20 or more German fighters escorting a strike group. Sometimes the Germans had local numerical superiority even if it wasn't experienced across the whole front.

Exactly. Total numbers doesnt really tell how things were on normal patrols or should be in terms of gameplay.

[DrDag]

so an air quake of fighters is just not simulating the situation in any way shape or form and the best we could do is about 4 or 5

Soviet fighters vs 1 German.   I can see now that any air quake server that the Germans are going to totally dominate as there will likely almost never be 4 Soviet planes to one German.

I think they simply need to adjust how 'Airquake' is played. All planes for all sides - done. Especially in the early years the LW planes had an edge over the VVS but still lost dearly on attrition. I can see that historical PvP can be problematic in theory if number ratios are do not change (even though in the sim community there are VVS fliers with so much experience they easily dominate the standard and better flyers - I am standard ;-) ). 

 

This will look very different when in bigger operations with more than just 1 vs 1 fighter context. The rest has been already said. Fighter vs Fighter battles do not win wars, bombers do.

Adding more planes later on will also even things more out. Mig-3 for altitude performance as well as later YAK and LA fighters will address this. 

 

cheers,

Dag

[sturmkraehe]

They could start to make aaa more effective (without turning it into snipers) that makes a pilot think twice if he vultures over enemy airfield. 

 

Provide for each side a third airfield in order to stretch further the vulture space reducing thus the concentration of vultures on one place and provide another option for landing to the pilots.

 

Put on Stalingrad map with minumum 2 spaced airfields per side or minimum 3 airfields and proper objectives on several spots.

[Meteor2]

Meant to include fascist transports in the above, same applies though...the Axis fighters might have been able to kick ass on VVS fighters trying to down transports, but still the point would not be a fighter battle but rather an escort vs interceptor battle, with fighter losses a lot less important to the VVS than to the Axis.  I read that early in BoB the Germans attacked a lot of British coastal shipping not because they wanted to sink little boats but to draw out British fighters as at that point attrition would have favored the fascists.  The Soviets famously lost battles and won a war...

 

Wow.. Never heard about transports being fascists. What a nonsenses.

Both my grandfathers were in russia during the war, but (surprise, surprise), none of them were party members.

Oh, and one of them has been a member of the socialist party in Germany.

So, please, no BS here.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Wow.. Never heard about transports being fascists. What a nonsenses.

Both my grandfathers were in russia during the war, but (surprise, surprise), none of them were party members.

Oh, and one of them has been a member of the socialist party in Germany.

So, please, no BS here.

Meteor, a lot of people learned only a very simplified version of history and automatically assume that all members of the German military during WWII were fascists and Nazi's when that was hardly the case. Many serving military members were also parts of long standing Prussian military families with centuries of lineage... those included many of Hitler's Generals who he disliked and didn't trust. The details are much more interesting and far less black/white or good/evil than some assume. Although I think in this case its generally talking about the "forces of fascism" generally speaking rather than the men flying the transport aircraft themselves. A small distinction.

 

so an air quake of fighters is just not simulating the situation in any way shape or form and the best we could do is about 4 or 5

Soviet fighters vs 1 German.   I can see now that any air quake server that the Germans are going to totally dominate as there will likely almost never be 4 Soviet planes to one German.

An air quake server never simulates real war situations. You say that Germans should totally dominate but the other thing to keep in mind is that the Germans were heavily outnumbered but also could call upon the talents of some extremely experienced veteran pilots some of them coming from the Legion Condor and others with extensive Battle of Britain and Barbarossa experience. The Russians had some more experienced pilots in the ranks by Stalingrad and on the whole the VVS was making great progress in catching up but generally speaking it was large numbers of not as experienced and not as well trained pilots against a small number of very experienced and very well trained pilots.

 

Online it's an even mix of experienced and inexperienced in even numbers on both teams. The aircraft are close enough in performance to ensure that a great pilot will likely dominate less experienced opposition no matter what team they fly for.

Edited June 8, 2014 by ShamrockOneFive

[=38=Tatarenko]

Meteor, a lot of people learned only a very simplified version of history and automatically assume that all members of the German military during WWII were fascists and Nazi's when that was hardly the case. Many serving military members were also parts of long standing Prussian military families with centuries of lineage... those included many of Hitler's Generals who he disliked and didn't trust. The details are much more interesting and far less black/white or good/evil than some assume. Although I think in this case its generally talking about the "forces of fascism" generally speaking rather than the men flying the transport aircraft themselves. A small distinction.

 

 

I'm not convinced there's any distinction. My grandfather was never a party member and was a pre-war officer but the fact remains that he invaded 2 other countries (France and the Soviet Union) to try and conquer them as part of the German Army. What difference does party membership make? He killed people to take their land (actually not French people because the advance was so swift his artillery didn't see much action). He was to all intents and purposes as much of a nazi as the party members.

 

The moment you kill people to take their country you are a fascist. That's the difference on D-Day - the Allies always intended handing back France, Belgium, Holland etc to their people.

[Saurer]

 

The moment you kill people to take their country you are a fascist. That's the difference on D-Day - the Allies always intended handing back France, Belgium, Holland etc to their people.

 

So you are suggesting that the communist Soviets are Nazis for attacking Finnland? 

[siipperi]

I'm not convinced there's any distinction. My grandfather was never a party member and was a pre-war officer but the fact remains that he invaded 2 other countries (France and the Soviet Union) to try and conquer them as part of the German Army. What difference does party membership make? He killed people to take their land (actually not French people because the advance was so swift his artillery didn't see much action). He was to all intents and purposes as much of a nazi as the party members.

 

The moment you kill people to take their country you are a fascist. That's the difference on D-Day - the Allies always intended handing back France, Belgium, Holland etc to their people.

So every allied soldier was war criminal? Please leave nonesense out of this thread.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I'm not convinced there's any distinction. My grandfather was never a party member and was a pre-war officer but the fact remains that he invaded 2 other countries (France and the Soviet Union) to try and conquer them as part of the German Army. What difference does party membership make? He killed people to take their land (actually not French people because the advance was so swift his artillery didn't see much action). He was to all intents and purposes as much of a nazi as the party members.

 

The moment you kill people to take their country you are a fascist. That's the difference on D-Day - the Allies always intended handing back France, Belgium, Holland etc to their people.

 

Many armies have invaded and conquered throughout human history and not very many of them are associated with fascism as a political ideology. I'd rather not go off topic here.. we're talking about force levels available during the Battle of Stalingrad but I'd say it would be more accurate to refer to members of the Luftwaffe as pilots, the aircraft themselves as Luftwaffe transports or German transports, and the Nazi government and political organization as that.

Edited June 8, 2014 by ShamrockOneFive

[Meteor2]

I was my only intention to make clear, that things are not easy, when looking back after 70 years.

We are all lucky, not to be forced to resist such a murderous system as the national-socialist regime in Germany.

Who knows, what our personal reactions would have been during these times ?

 

And by the way (thanks Saurer to mention it):

The Soviets invaded small Finland in 1939 in an aggression war without declaring war to that country and that has never been a subject to an international

court. What does this tell us about Hitlerism and Stalinism ?

[DrDag]

It tells us to keep politics out of a sim forum. The topic is too big for this kind of forum tbh.

 

dag

[Meteor2]

It tells us to keep politics out of a sim forum. The topic is too big for this kind of forum tbh.

 

dag

You are right. I agree.

[qtStamphth]

The Germans were eventually outnumbered in menpower/vehicle/aircraft/weapons thoughout a large portion of WWII in most its theaters.  Thus, as a pilot on the German side you'd have to be very lucky to make it thru the war even in the Stalingrad front. 

[Uriah]

"The aircraft are close enough in performance to ensure that a great pilot will likely dominate less experienced opposition no matter what team they fly for."

 

I hope that is true but my fear is that the air quake servers almost everyone will be flying German planes.  But then I read about how unstable many are finding the 109 f4 and so maybe not.

 

It would seem better to me if the air quake servers had 4 to 1 in Soviet favor.  That way the folks flying Soviet planes would have a chance.  But maybe that is totally unnecessary if ShamrockOneFive is correct.

 

And as far as air quake being un-realistic.  Yes it is so why not let us poor pilots cheat by using cheats like padlock?  It rarely makes any difference in the outcome of a dog fight.  Yeah, it is a dead argument.  Sorry for beating the horse.

[Requiem]

"The aircraft are close enough in performance to ensure that a great pilot will likely dominate less experienced opposition no matter what team they fly for."

 

I hope that is true but my fear is that the air quake servers almost everyone will be flying German planes.  But then I read about how unstable many are finding the 109 f4 and so maybe not.

 

It would seem better to me if the air quake servers had 4 to 1 in Soviet favor.  That way the folks flying Soviet planes would have a chance.  But maybe that is totally unnecessary if ShamrockOneFive is correct.

 

And as far as air quake being un-realistic.  Yes it is so why not let us poor pilots cheat by using cheats like padlock?  It rarely makes any difference in the outcome of a dog fight.  Yeah, it is a dead argument.  Sorry for beating the horse.

Considering how the ratio should be is why I hope Co-op mode is implemented after release. I know you can do this using DF mode, or maybe even server side right now judging by how player numbers are managed in MP, but the Co-op lobby is more suited to enforcing it.

[DrDag]

Considering how the ratio should be is why I hope Co-op mode is implemented after release. I know you can do this using DF mode, or maybe even server side right now judging by how player numbers are managed in MP, but the Co-op lobby is more suited to enforcing it.

+1, well said. I totally agree.

[ShamrockOneFive]

"The aircraft are close enough in performance to ensure that a great pilot will likely dominate less experienced opposition no matter what team they fly for."

 

I hope that is true but my fear is that the air quake servers almost everyone will be flying German planes.  But then I read about how unstable many are finding the 109 f4 and so maybe not.

 

It would seem better to me if the air quake servers had 4 to 1 in Soviet favor.  That way the folks flying Soviet planes would have a chance.  But maybe that is totally unnecessary if ShamrockOneFive is correct.

 

And as far as air quake being un-realistic.  Yes it is so why not let us poor pilots cheat by using cheats like padlock?  It rarely makes any difference in the outcome of a dog fight.  Yeah, it is a dead argument.  Sorry for beating the horse.

 

If IL-2 Forgotten Battles is any guide... we'll see large numbers of players flocking to the easiest/highest performing fighter. They will see their fellow pilots flying it and decide to go for that. Then there will be small numbers of players who will fly anything but. And then there will be the specialists (both individual and squad based) that will pick one aircraft and master it completely.

 

You're always going to see large numbers of whatever is perceived as the "best" or... "easiest" although at this point I'm not sure what the clear winner is for Battle of Stalingrad. We'll probably see some fad type behavior but hopefully we'll see a good mix. If we can do proper objective based online then we'll see lots of the rest of the types too... not everyone has to fly a fighter. The IL2 or a He111 can be just as much fun to manage.

[FlatSpinMan]

Thanks for returning to the original topic.

Interesting info, Sokol.

[Gambit21]

Then there will be small numbers of players who will fly anything

 

That was always me in the old IL2.

In CoOps I always flew "slack", meaning wherever human participation was the lightest.

This is how I initially got so good in the Zeke.

[Matt]

It would seem better to me if the air quake servers had 4 to 1 in Soviet favor. That way the folks flying Soviet planes would have a chance. But maybe that is totally unnecessary if ShamrockOneFive is correct.

The Soviet pilots don't need a 4 to 1 advantage to have a chance. Not even if they would only have LaGG-3s.

 

Also let's assume the maximum player limit will be around 64 players. That would mean 10-11 players total on the German side. Split that up on the 4 different plane types and it will just be pretty much impossible to do anything more than a small bomber formation being escorted by a handful of fighters. If the server is fully populated.

 

I don't think this will work out on any DF server.

 

Now a slight advantage in numbers (1:1.2 for instance) for the soviets is something I would actually favor. I think the German planes are currently still more popular than the Soviet, so it seems more likely to me, that the German side will outnumber the Soviet side more often than not. And that could become problematic. But maybe it will also even itself out.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Matt

[LLv44_Mprhead]

When I fly at EU-expert server, there is usually a bit more Soviet  than German planes.

[Finkeren]

In MP it really should be no more than around 1:1.2 in favor of the VVS with the current plane set.

 

In SP campain the numbers can approach historical reality, but to even it out just a bit might be a good idea. I don't think the AI is quite able to handle the numerical odds, the Germans faced. This can be somewhat justified by the fact, that the Luftwaffe did strive to achieve some degree of numerical parity locally when conducting larger operations.

[StarLightSong]

I like the Lag as a gun platform and prefer the view down its sights.  The placement of the 109 sights in game doesn't suit me.

I like the long long long SurPrizE!! deflection shot, then chasing down the hobbled foe.  Gives lots of room to disengage and enemies dropping combat flaps and jamming down the throttle just fill up the gun-sight with fuselage...

 

But

 

AMmo levels are so low in the Red STar, want to carry a bag of bullets in the cockpit

 

: )

[Descolada]

I'm not sure why it really even needs a numerical advantage. Sure the yak is worse, but its more than enough of a capable plane and with air spawns/extra airfields you really can't get spawn camped unless everybody just totally sucks.