Some questions for our Italian friends regarding which aircraft are of interest?

[Avimimus]

What aircraft do you think are most missing for our current scenarios? Note: I'm not affiliated with Team Fusion - I'm just curious and would like my own daydreams to become better informed

 

I focused my research on North Africa (not Italy in 1944) and this is what I figured out:

 

Macchi MC.200

 

With over 1,150 produced it was similar in importance to the MC.202. So it would seem to be an important design for creating historically correct scenarios. I think the only fighter which exceeds those two in numerical importance is the old CR.42 biplane.

 

Is there anything new that it would bring? Anything to justify it being more than just an AI aircraft.

Trimotor Bombers

 

These are truly iconic and appear very distinctive.

 

Which one would be preferred? The SM.79 seems to have been the most produced. However the CANT Z.1007 and the SM.81 and SM.82 seem to have also been produced in large numbers.

Earlier designs - Currently the CR.42 seems to lack aircraft which are slow enough to escort (and the Gladiator lacks aircraft which are slow enough targets to easily catch).

 

The IMAM Ro.37 would seem an obvious choice - with its numerical importance, use early in the war, followed by its continued use in secondary roles into 1943. The naval variant (IMAM Ro.43) looks like a lot of fun.

 

What about the larger Caproni Ca.133 transport/bomber?

 

And what about the Caproni Ca.31X light bomber series... those would seem to be excellent counterparts to the Blenheim (flyable) and Anson (AI)?

 

Are any of these aircraft to be desired? If only one could be picked - what should it be?

 

Anything I missed? What are your priorities/dreams?

[343KKT_Kintaro]

I always liked the Fiat CR.32. An obsolete aircraft in 1940 but a real looker (more than his offspring the CR.42). This beauty participated in significant numbers in WWII in 1940, 1941 and 1942...

[Cybermat47]

I’m not Italian, but the SM.79 is definitely one I’d like us to tackle one day. It’s iconic, and it gives the RA torpedo attack capability.

[Enceladus828]

3 hours ago, Avimimus said:

and SM.82

If they want to build an SM.82 there's one in the Italian Air Force museum?

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

1 hour ago, Enceladus said:

If they want to build an SM.82 there's one in the Italian Air Force museum?

 

 

 

 

I already saw that photograph (it's in Commons)... but... Where is the vertical stabiliser? Is it simply behind the right wing? In such a case, isn't this a very short vertical stabiliser for a so big plane?

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by 343KKT_Kintaro
Were -> Where

[Enceladus828]

20 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Where is the vertical stabiliser? Is it simply behind the right wing? In such a case, isn't this a very short vertical stabiliser for a so big plane?

Yeah, looks like the vertical stabilizer was just hiding

 

http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/savoia_sm82pw_aldobidini.jpg

Edited April 1, 2021 by Enceladus

[jaguar]

Considering the current map I think the most relevant, and missing, are:

 

Bombers: SM79, CANT Z1007

 

Fighters/Attack: MC.200, Ba.65, CR.32

 

Transport/Utility/Recon: SM.81, SM.82, Ca.133, Ro.37

[4SCT_Vespa]

Well,the most important aircraft have already been mentioned: SM79, CANT Z.1007, C.200, Ca.309, Ca.310...and so on...but I'd like to see also a Reggiane Re.2001 ( Malta theatre )

 

[4SCT_CR42Falco]

In order of appearance in the game I'd say

C200

S79

Cant Z1007

BA65

CA3XX

SM81

SM82

And Re2001!

[Avimimus]

Is the Breda Ba.65 really important? My first intuition was that it'd be valuable given its specialised role - but looking at the numbers in service - and early service withdrawal... I ended up viewing it as much less important than the CA3XX etc.

 

 

[21.Gr.CT.Ludovisi]

I'm Italian, but if you read any history book of Regia Aeronautica, there are four key planes in WWII: CR.42 and MC200 (because they wer used everywhere since the beginning of the war to the end), the MC202 (because it was the only good fighter wich was mass-produced), and the SM79. This latter was the most iconic because it was linked to the most famous mission of the Regia or the most important naval battle of the Mediterranean.

 

Another quite important aircraft (expecially for the Balcan theatre) was the CANT 1007, while other fighers are quite irrelevant due to limited production (the Reggiane) or  limited use (the G.55). The MC205 was quite similar to MC202 and the use was limited, so I think we can wait for it.

 

My answer: SM79.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by 22.Gr.CT.Ludovisi

[FTC_Karaya]

SM.79 is definitely a must have for a potential future Med expansion. That should also come with the circle pattern Motobomba torpedo if it gets included.

C.200 is a must have because it was the most important Italian fighter up until the C.202 arrived.

Re.2001 would be great to have as a companion to the Macchi. Should be a great turn fighter as well. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Karaya

[5th_Hellrider]

39 minutes ago, 22.Gr.CT.Ludovisi said:

I'm Italian, but if you read any history book of Regia Aeronautica, there are four key planes in WWII: CR.42 and MC200 (because they wer used everywhere since the beginning of the war to the end), the MC202 (because it was the only good fighter wich was mass-produced), and the SM79. This latter was the most iconic because it was linked to the most famous mission of the Regia or the most important naval battle of the Mediterranean.

 

Another quite important aircraft (expecially for the Balcan theatre) was the CANT 1007, while other fighers are quite irrelevant due to limited production (the Reggiane) or  limited use (the G.55). The MC205 was quite similar to MC202 and the use was limited, so I think we can wait for it.

 

My answer: SM79.

 

 

 

That's exactly what I would have written. 

[Avimimus]

Very interesting - would anyone like to explain to me the merits of the CANT Z.1007? It seems to keep coming up as the next most interesting bomber after the SM.79.

[Cybermat47]

On 4/1/2021 at 9:29 AM, Avimimus said:

Macchi MC.200

 

Is there anything new that it would bring? Anything to justify it being more than just an AI aircraft.

Does it bring anything new? With the G.50 already in the game, no, not much.

 

Is it justified to be more than an AI aircraft? Yes, it was a pretty prolific aircraft, and saw success in North Africa as a fighter and a fighter-bomber.

 

Personally, I would love us to have a crack at it, but unfortunately, Italian aircraft just aren’t as popular as British and German types.

 

That’s not a definite ‘no’ when it comes to adding new RA aircraft in the future, though.

[4SCT_CR42Falco]

21 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Is the Breda Ba.65 really important? My first intuition was that it'd be valuable given its specialised role - but looking at the numbers in service - and early service withdrawal... I ended up viewing it as much less important than the CA3XX etc.

 

 

It saw early war service in North Africa and was withdrawn due to consumption rather than for not working (o yes, it was obsolete, but still better in the role than CR32 and the abismal failure called BA88...) and it indeed had a role in slowing down Wawell's pursuit. As alternative you could consider to give bombs to G.50, but it already stays barely afloat as it is now, in the game... ? 

20 hours ago, 22.Gr.CT.Ludovisi said:

The MC205 was quite similar to MC202 and the use was limited, so I think we can wait for it.

I would not want to wait too long for the 20mm mausers...  

Edited April 2, 2021 by 4SCT_CR42Falco

[Startrek66]

I would like to have the Fiat G55, the only aircraft, produced in the war period, capable of competing both for performance and armament with Allied fighters.  It was probably superior to even the best German fighters of the period, as the Germans themselves admitted.  Unfortunately, its use was practically limited to the strenuous defense of the cities of Northern Italy from the USAF and RAF bombers, an unequal fight for the number of vehicles in the field, which the heroic pilots of the ANR supported.  So in our simulator there would be no context to frame it.  And so, given the current maps of Bom and Bos, the real plane I would like is the Macchi Mc200, the only Italian vehicle used in modest quantities on the Russian front.  The macchi 202 was only used in small quantities and for a short time.

[FTC_Karaya]

All of the Series 5 fighters were super rare, literal unicorns with only around 200 produced (at best) of each (C.205, G.55, Re.2005).

If anything it would make sense to see the C.200 and Re.2001 modelled because these actually saw service in North Africa and over Malta.

[Dirtbag_Jim]

On 4/13/2021 at 1:23 PM, Startrek66 said:

And so, given the current maps of Bom and Bos, the real plane I would like is the Macchi Mc200, the only Italian vehicle used in modest quantities on the Russian front. 

 

This is a thread for CLoD and Desert Wings, not Great Battles

[Startrek66]

32 minutes ago, Dirtbag_Jim said:

 

This is a thread for CLoD and Desert Wings, not Great Battles

Ops

[4SCT_V-Twin]

On 4/2/2021 at 3:32 PM, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

Does it bring anything new? With the G.50 already in the game, no, not much.

The C.200 and the G.50 were far more different than the many similarities may suggest.
The G.50 was designed as assault plane and then adapted as fighter for the 1937 contest for the "Serie 0" fighters (the bomb bay in the fuselage was still present...). This led to a somewhat bulky plane, not very aerodynamic, slow (just 30 km/h faster than the Cr42), with mediocre climb. It was at least quite agile, though. It was affected by the same spin problem as the C200, but it wasn't resolved as it was instead on the C200. Never praised by the pilots (except Finns...).
The C200 was the winner of the 1937 contest and "outflyied" the G50 in every aspect. Aerodynamically more refined, faster (503/512 km/h depending on the sources vs 469 km/h), higher climb rate, more maneuverable with well balanced and light commands. The C200 was a pure fighter and when she arrived on the fronts the G50s where either retired from front line or reverted to the original assault role. On all fronts the C200 was the mainstay of the fighter groups. Eventually they took also the role of fighters-bombers by adding two fittings for 50 kg bombs, so they superseded the G50s also in this role.
Fighting in the G50s can be tolerated for the first months of the North Africa theatre, but from january 1941 the C200 should be available.
If there is a missing italian plane, then this is indubitably the C200 by far.

 

[Cybermat47]

2 hours ago, 4SCT_V-Twin said:

Fighting in the G50s can be tolerated for the first months of the North Africa theatre, but from january 1941 the C200 should be available.
If there is a missing italian plane, then this is indubitably the C200 by far.

Interesting read, thanks for the info!

[Buzzsaw]

On the list and being considered for future modules:  (no date and no guarantee and not necessarily in this order)

 

SM.79

C.200

C.205

Re.2001

Re.2002

G.55

 

Others unlikely.

[jaguar]

On 4/2/2021 at 3:12 PM, Avimimus said:

Very interesting - would anyone like to explain to me the merits of the CANT Z.1007? It seems to keep coming up as the next most interesting bomber after the SM.79.

 

IIRC the Z.1007 flew in some numbers from Sardinia against allied convoys and, after Torch, as night bomber against ports in Northwest Africa. It flew also in the balkan/greek campaign and from Rhodes against ports in the eastern Mediterranean.

 

I'd say It Is more relevant than Re.2002 and G.55 but It depends on which map will be developed

Edited April 18, 2021 by jaguar

[Buzzsaw]

6 hours ago, jaguar said:

 

IIRC the Z.1007 flew in some numbers from Sardinia against allied convoys and, after Torch, as night bomber against ports in Northwest Africa. It flew also in the balkan/greek campaign and from Rhodes against ports in the eastern Mediterranean.

 

I'd say It Is more relevant than Re.2002 and G.55 but It depends on which map will be developed

Unfortunately the time it takes to build a bomber is roughly 4 times what it is to build a single engined fighter.

 

At this point we can only realistically build one Italian bomber.

 

The SM.79 was more widely used, it was capable of both level bombing and torpedo bombing, (the Cant Z.1007 could also theoretically carry torpedoes, but never did operationally) and is well recognized.

 

There is no doubt the Z.1007 was an interesting design and performance wise could be argued to be an overall better level bomber than the SM.79, but the hard realities of TF's limited resources means it won't likely be seen.  There is also the fact the Z.1007 was constructed of wood and was a little fragile... players might be disappointed at how easily it would be shot down.  The SM.79 was a little more rugged.

[21.Gr.CT.Ludovisi]

Furthermore, we just have an Italian level-bomber, the BR20: the SM79 will give us a totally new combat option. Go on with the Gobbo Maledetto!

Edited April 18, 2021 by 22.Gr.CT.Ludovisi

[Avimimus]

On 4/15/2021 at 4:41 PM, Buzzsaw said:

On the list and being considered for future modules:  (no date and no guarantee and not necessarily in this order)

 

SM.79

C.200

C.205

Re.2001

Re.2002

G.55

 

Others unlikely.

 

Ah! I'd feel quite lucky to have the first two in the sim (even as AI). So the fact that more are being considered is pretty great.

 

At some level I'd like to see one of the slower aircraft as AI (Ro.37, Ca.133, Ca.31X) so that the second-line fighters (Gladiator and D.510) would have a better target that they can actually catch. I suppose I could repaint an Avro Anson?

 

It still won't give me a D.510 though! I think I would give up a flyable for some more AI aircraft. But I'm sure most people would rather have another flyable fighter (even at the expense of three or four historically important AI types)... so I can't really claim that my desire for French AI aircraft, AI Lysanders & Battles, and the 1936-1940 era aircraft is necessarily wise.  I do tend to think that every fighter should have at least one bomber (or two-seater) that is substantially slower than it as a target! Ideally anyway.

[4SCT_CR42Falco]

On 4/18/2021 at 8:45 PM, Buzzsaw said:

There is also the fact the Z.1007 was constructed of wood and was a little fragile... players might be disappointed at how easily it would be shot down.  The SM.79 was a little more rugged.

The SM 79 had woodden wings as well, but yes the Z 1007 was an all woodden construction. Anyway it was quite rugged and not as easy to bring down as one could imagine: the self carrying frame was covered by laminating two layers of plywood with the fibers angled by 45° with respect to the frame and 90° between the layers themselves making a "woodden Wellington" out of it. If you damaged the skin, the frame was able to hold the load by itself, if you damaged the frame, the skin was robust enough as to bear the weight for some time (and depending from the magnitude of damage, of course). That said, as much as I loved to see an Alcione flying in DW, I concur that priority should be given to the SM 79 ?

[ulisse_ilsupremo]

I would love to see planes like the SM84 (sure, it had a lot of problems… but Aesthetically is one of my fav bombers/torpedo planes EVER!) the BR20 would be cool, also the twin engined capronis, that if I remember well were also used in that campaign (from 310 to 314) some of those (prolly the 312 or 314) had something like 2 or 4 breda safat, as well as bombs, I am sure it would be a lot fun.

cr.32, cr42, g.50 (AS prolly, or all the versions, love all of em) and mc200 all with the possibility to carry bombs.

of course also the Reggianes and all the planes mentioned by the fellows above (cant z1007, sm79 etc) maybe even the imam ro 57 (even tho it is very obscure) sm82 and the sm 81.

maybe even the piaggio p108 (but that is very unlikely to happen)

even the Caproni Vizzola f5 or the SAI Ambrosini 207, re 2000/2000GA, 2001,2002,2005, mc 205 first series and also latest one, the biplane IMAM Ros with also the possibility to carry bombs.

And so on 😅.

why not, also a d520 with the Italian markings as well as other German planes who got used by the Italians.

Edit: would love to fly the latest Breda 65, or Breda ba 88 (ok no the Ba 88 was a failure 😅 the 65 tho would be very interesting, even tho it was used in other campaigns. Even the Caproni Ca 133.

of course the important thing is that you put all the Italian planes used in the conflicts used in the campaigns that are in the actual game/simulator.

Edited August 22, 2024 by ulisse_ilsupremo

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

Sparviero and MC 200 definitely. Reggianes as well. Veltro would be nice and of course Centauro, but those are for later era.