AI skill 'normal' now seems 'ace'?

[AcidBath]

In the FC missions I fly with my online squad, recently it seems that AI that are at 'normal' are now endowed with 'ace' gunnery skills, in that if you ever get in their sights (even while you are in tight evasive maneuvers), their bullets are usually immediately placed with high-damaging accuracy to either your aircraft, you or both.  This wasn't the case a few weeks ago.  Anyone else been noticing this?

[US103_Baer]

Actually yeah.  The AI do seem to take more difficult shots and try to stay on you better than before.

They still fly pretty dumb but if you don't see one get his guns on you it's a sharp lesson. 

[Angry_Kitten]

actually my feeling is that the NOVICE level lets a halberstadt handle for the AI like an ACE level triplane was in Rise of Flight

[BlitzPig_EL]

This isn't just a FC issue, the AI on the WW2 side also display "mad skillzz" as well, especially in deflection shots, and head on from absurd distances.

 

Another thing to consider is that the AI always fly perfectly coordinated and with perfect trim (in aircraft that have adjustable trim).  Hence they conserve their energy far better than a human pilot, and this makes their gunnery more accurate as well.

 

One of the hardest things to do to make the AI believable is to make them less than robotically perfect, but still have them be a challenge and not just target drones.

[Angry_Kitten]

I think the AI skill is dependent upon what your doing....  

 

Meaning I have seen sudden instant spikes in skill level during my quick missions.   Take out 4 novice level AI b25s or PE2  and they have MR Magoo manning the machine guns and cant hit you at 100m. But the 5th one pops up and suddenly they have the magical ability to take your oil, gas, or pilot out with 1 shot at 800m.

[LukeFF]

12 minutes ago, pocketshaver said:

I think the AI skill is dependent upon what your doing....  

 

Meaning I have seen sudden instant spikes in skill level during my quick missions.   Take out 4 novice level AI b25s or PE2  and they have MR Magoo manning the machine guns and cant hit you at 100m. But the 5th one pops up and suddenly they have the magical ability to take your oil, gas, or pilot out with 1 shot at 800m.

 

Sorry, but you are imagining things. The AI skill level is entirely dependent on the plane type and the skill level at which they've been set. There is absolutely no such thing as spikes in skill level. 

[Angry_Kitten]

11 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Sorry, but you are imagining things. The AI skill level is entirely dependent on the plane type and the skill level at which they've been set. There is absolutely no such thing as spikes in skill level. 

Then can you explain HOW its possible that i can spend 10 minutes taking out 4 or 5 B25s on "novice",  traveling MOST of the time inside the perfect kill zone and they will  

1. JUST NOT SHOOT at me

2. JUST hit my wings at best with 10 rounds from ALL those 4-5 planes combined. 

 

then when the next one spawns, it opens up at 800 meters and takes my engine, radiator, oil system, fuel system, and sometimes PILOT out with a SINGLE SHOT

 

Ive even noticed that the russian AI in the twin engine rear gunner is alot more eager to shoot and alot more accurate

[=LD=Brazo]

1 hour ago, pocketshaver said:

Then can you explain HOW its possible that i can spend 10 minutes taking out 4 or 5 B25s on "novice",  traveling MOST of the time inside the perfect kill zone and they will  

1. JUST NOT SHOOT at me

2. JUST hit my wings at best with 10 rounds from ALL those 4-5 planes combined. 

 

then when the next one spawns, it opens up at 800 meters and takes my engine, radiator, oil system, fuel system, and sometimes PILOT out with a SINGLE SHOT

 

Ive even noticed that the russian AI in the twin engine rear gunner is alot more eager to shoot and alot more accurate

I too have noticed exactly this. Oddly I also had enemy planes spawning in the other day already smoking from their engines and they all were destroyed without me firing a single shot.

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, pocketshaver said:

Then can you explain HOW its possible that i can spend 10 minutes taking out 4 or 5 B25s on "novice",  traveling MOST of the time inside the perfect kill zone and they will  

1. JUST NOT SHOOT at me

2. JUST hit my wings at best with 10 rounds from ALL those 4-5 planes combined. 

 

then when the next one spawns, it opens up at 800 meters and takes my engine, radiator, oil system, fuel system, and sometimes PILOT out with a SINGLE SHOT

 

Ive even noticed that the russian AI in the twin engine rear gunner is alot more eager to shoot and alot more accurate

 

If you want a more serious answer, you need to post a track file and a copy of the mission. It also really helps to know what sort of Quick Mission you are playing when you think these things are happening. 

 

The only way you are going to see variable AI skill levels in a Quick Mission is if you have the opposition AI set to Random. Otherwise, there is no way you are going to see enemy planes with varying skill levels. If you've set the AI level to Veteran, then that's what you are going to get and nothing else - and that's easily confirmed by looking at the mission file. 

[Angry_Kitten]

9 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

If you want a more serious answer, you need to post a track file and a copy of the mission. It also really helps to know what sort of Quick Mission you are playing when you think these things are happening. 

 

The only way you are going to see variable AI skill levels in a Quick Mission is if you have the opposition AI set to Random. Otherwise, there is no way you are going to see enemy planes with varying skill levels. If you've set the AI level to Veteran, then that's what you are going to get and nothing else - and that's easily confirmed by looking at the mission file. 

I hate to break it too you but it is happening. the ONLY time the game has been set to random was when i first installed it, and after each update has reset it.  

    I set to novice for the enemy AI and do my run through and see how my wrist holds out. 

 

IF the AI level IS NOT CHANGING mid game,   can you explain how at moments i can fly behind a B25 and neither turret can hit me, or not even TRY to hit me, and then suddenly the next plane spawns and it can take my oil or radiator or gas or pilot out with a single shot at 800 meters on the first damned burst they take at me?

[AcidBath]

My squad and I have adjusted our attack tactics to compensate for the insanely good (lucky?) AI gunnery skill.  No one now wants to be the lead AC, for now it's about 50-50 that as lead that you'll survive the first pass without taking serious damage.  Like I said, even when breaking hard from their oncoming pass, their deflection shots are amazingly efficient in the serious damage that so few rounds can inflict.  I kind of agree that there seems to be some random element with 'low' AI gunnery skill, for they will at times seemingly "spray and pray" from your six, and on another pass every bullet is incredibly well placed (well, but I must admit my gunnery can be that way too so perhaps all is well with the AI).

[=IRFC=Gascan]

I've noticed the firing patterns of the ground machine guns when passing low over the front lines or attacking ground targets might give a hint at how the AI gunners work. Try it: fly low over the enemy side of the front on the FlugPark server and you can watch the ground fire coming at you. I can clearly see that  they fire a burst several seconds long, and every half-second or so they adjust their aim a bit. From my perspective, a line of bullets will pass, say, below me, then in front of me, then behind me, then below me again, then above me. If they get the aim right, then a line of bullets will hit me, causing damage. If I am simply passing by, I can usually just dip up and down a bit, and this is enough to throw off the gunner's aim, but it doesn't work so much when attacking head on so I can bomb a target. Against a machine gunner on the ground, the best hope is to get the first hit in: open fire early, firing bursts with as many machine guns as my Bristol or Halberstadt can carry, and the gunner will run away when hit. If I don't get the hit in, even a green AI gunner has a decent chance to cause significant damage. The worst is cutting control surfaces, which makes trying to bomb targets or clear out the machine gunner even harder, but I've also been wounded or had my engine shot out a bunch.

I think the chances of the AI gunner getting the "right" aim are lower when set to a lower difficulty, but the results don't change much if he does get a good burst in. It may seem like he "suddenly got much better" but in reality he just got lucky on lining up a shot and you flew right through his shot. Making the AI respond exactly the way a human gunner would is not easy, so this is my best guess of how they might be doing it and why you're seeing what you are. Of course, when you try to fly with an AI gunner, he just sits there and lets the enemy slice you open, all the while they're complaining about your sniper gunner, so yeah....

[Angry_Kitten]

1 hour ago, gascan said:

I've noticed the firing patterns of the ground machine guns when passing low over the front lines or attacking ground targets might give a hint at how the AI gunners work. Try it: fly low over the enemy side of the front on the FlugPark server and you can watch the ground fire coming at you. I can clearly see that  they fire a burst several seconds long, and every half-second or so they adjust their aim a bit. From my perspective, a line of bullets will pass, say, below me, then in front of me, then behind me, then below me again, then above me. If they get the aim right, then a line of bullets will hit me, causing damage. If I am simply passing by, I can usually just dip up and down a bit, and this is enough to throw off the gunner's aim, but it doesn't work so much when attacking head on so I can bomb a target. Against a machine gunner on the ground, the best hope is to get the first hit in: open fire early, firing bursts with as many machine guns as my Bristol or Halberstadt can carry, and the gunner will run away when hit. If I don't get the hit in, even a green AI gunner has a decent chance to cause significant damage. The worst is cutting control surfaces, which makes trying to bomb targets or clear out the machine gunner even harder, but I've also been wounded or had my engine shot out a bunch.

I think the chances of the AI gunner getting the "right" aim are lower when set to a lower difficulty, but the results don't change much if he does get a good burst in. It may seem like he "suddenly got much better" but in reality he just got lucky on lining up a shot and you flew right through his shot. Making the AI respond exactly the way a human gunner would is not easy, so this is my best guess of how they might be doing it and why you're seeing what you are. Of course, when you try to fly with an AI gunner, he just sits there and lets the enemy slice you open, all the while they're complaining about your sniper gunner, so yeah....

 

 

The probability that the AI level DOESNT change is unlikely.    Even when the probability of an event happening in the program is derived from a "chance table",, there should NOT be a sudden spike like this happening. 

 

Meaning if you take 3 planes in a row, and the gunners do not have the ability to hit you at 100 feet in a 5 minute period.  BUT suddenly the 4th plane can hit you with a single shot on their first burst at a range of 7 or 800 yards/meters and hit the pilot or you radiator or fuel or oil...  There is a serious defect in the probability programming. 

 

I have noticed that the longer i play in a single night the AI tail gunners DO improve their skill overall as the game goes on.  The first hour they are truly "low skill novice gunners"  but in the following hours they develop better aim in the same skill level. 

[LukeFF]

47 minutes ago, pocketshaver said:

I have noticed that the longer i play in a single night the AI tail gunners DO improve their skill overall as the game goes on.  The first hour they are truly "low skill novice gunners"  but in the following hours they develop better aim in the same skill level. 

 

Dude, this is simply not the case. Until you post a mission file that demonstrates this behavior, I can only chalk this up to confirmation bias. The AI isn't suddenly going to gain new skills in the middle of a mission. It never did in ROF and it never has here, either. 

[unreasonable]

Just now, pocketshaver said:

 

 

The probability that the AI level DOESNT change is unlikely.    Even when the probability of an event happening in the program is derived from a "chance table",, there should NOT be a sudden spike like this happening. 

 

Meaning if you take 3 planes in a row, and the gunners do not have the ability to hit you at 100 feet in a 5 minute period.  BUT suddenly the 4th plane can hit you with a single shot on their first burst at a range of 7 or 800 yards/meters and hit the pilot or you radiator or fuel or oil...  There is a serious defect in the probability programming. 

 

I have noticed that the longer i play in a single night the AI tail gunners DO improve their skill overall as the game goes on.  The first hour they are truly "low skill novice gunners"  but in the following hours they develop better aim in the same skill level. 

 

 

Honestly I think you are just projecting patterns onto random outcomes.  The whole point of random errors built into the AI's aim point is that sometimes they will hit with the first burst. That is not a "spike" - any more than rolling a six on the first try on a d6 is a "spike".  Again, over a series of trials you will get some runs of hits: again that is what you would expect from RNG.

 

Another thing to take into account is that while the gunners are good at calculating deflection due to the movement of the target, at least in a straight line, they do not take into account deflection due to the movement of their own plane.  You can show this in a test set up with an He111s side guns firing at ground targets. They always miss in front of the target (from the bomber's pov, ie in the direction of travel of the bomber). Which is a mistake that only very well trained gunners would not make as it happens, as it is so counter intuitive to place your point of aim behind a target especially if it is moving.  

 

So getting behind bombers is a bad idea unless you can kill the rear gunners immediately.  The more you are on their beam, the harder it will be for their gunners to get you. 

[Angry_Kitten]

Strange, i take 90% or more of my bombers from dead behind.    Even the IL2 and PE kids... dead behind.   

 

Honestly i spend most of my time in their best kill zone and the spike only happens with the B25s.   the russian twin engines with rear gunners, they are crazy shits from the get go. Even at Novice the russian tail gunners behave like the B25 gunners at Veteran level do

[BlitzPig_EL]

One thing I will say is that the AI, on both the WW1 and WW2 sides of things, have become snipers with mad skillz when doing head on passes, regardless of what difficulty level I have set for them.  They open fire at very long range, and make astoundingly good deflection shots from the frontal quadrant.

[unreasonable]

People were complaining that their AI wingmen were incapable of hitting a target and wasted all their ammunition. A recent DD noted that the AI skills have been improved. 

 

Be careful what you wish for! 

[Angry_Kitten]

3 hours ago, unreasonable said:

People were complaining that their AI wingmen were incapable of hitting a target and wasted all their ammunition. A recent DD noted that the AI skills have been improved. 

 

Be careful what you wish for! 

I believe the complaints were along the lines of 

 

"why does my AI wingman fly in a circle 9 miles away from me when i have a pair of 109s on me"

[BlitzPig_EL]

Was playing in the GAZ anti aircraft gun truck last night on my server.  An AI Macchi opened up on me from 1.6km (had icons on to try to figure out gunnery in the truck better), and killed me and my gun crew almost immediately.  They do love head ons.

[=LD=Brazo]

The head on pass is where the ai excel, whilst it’s easy to beat even ace ai in practice sessions one must first survive the head on pass!,

[Angry_Kitten]

17 hours ago, Brazo said:

The head on pass is where the ai excel, whilst it’s easy to beat even ace ai in practice sessions one must first survive the head on pass!,

 

 

in quick missions the AI always try to fly THROUGH me in the head on pass when they spawn

[Voidhunger]

My biggest problem in ROF was the AI. It was tragic.

Now in FC although AI is much better in flying but its absolutelly toothless.

When I set 4x regular vs 4x ace, everytime I shot down all 4 aces alone, without a scratch.

My AI team mates are toothless, enemy AI is toothles. Its so boring!

 

my second problem is the pilot damage model. Im shooting right into the cockpit area , from close distance and I can only damage engine or break wings.

The pilot is almost immortal. I can fly those planes well and I think I have a good aim.

 

I though that in real life in WW1 pilots deaths and fuel fires were more common.

 

These two things drives me crazy and I didnt want to buy FC2 because of that. (and I like WW1 planes more than WW2 ones)  There is no fun and danger.