[Suggestion] Morale system for tank crews.

[Peasant]

 

Basically, this mechanic is meant to achieve two goals: first is to give the player a more realistic feel of tank combat where people inside are living humans like you and I, with a working sense of self-preservation, rather than mindless automatons and the second one is to give the combatants ability to fight back against an armored target they have to chance of penetrating, rather than just sitting and waiting to die or running away.

 

Here is a preliminary sketch of how it would work:

 

• Upon taking a on-penetrating hit a portion of the crew's current morale meter(MM) is depleted, as well as a portion of the maximum MM. Usually the latter is considerably smaller than the former. Larger caliber guns and/or high explosive shells deal more damage to the MM.

 

• On a penetrating hit into the crew compartment of the vehicle, the crew takes massive MM damage as well as being forced to roll a check if they're gonna abandon the vehicle, regardless of the current MM value. (controversial idea with most people, might not get implemented, for the sake of gameplay)

   

• After taking a hit, having another one coming shortly after from a different direction of 90° to the side or more will deal more MM damage than a second hit from the same direction.  Two or more attackers working together, firing at the target from both sides simultaneously, will quickly deplete its MM.

   

• The current maximum of MM can be restored by eliminating enemy targets. Eliminating a target that previously attacked you gives a bigger boost to morale meter.

 

So, thoughts?

Edited March 17, 2021 by Peasant

[DarkZenith]

It's a nice idea, but in general any kind of penetrating hit should result in a crew bail. Tank crews wouldn't stick around once that happened, even if the tank was technically still operational. 

 

I've even read of cases where crews would abandon their tank if they so much as thought it might have been hit! 

[LachenKrieg]

32 minutes ago, Peasant said:

 

Basically, this mechanic is meant to achieve two goals: first is to give the player a more realistic feel of tank combat where people inside are living humans like you and I, with a working sense of self-preservation, rather than mindless automatons and the second one is to give the combatants ability to fight back against an armored target they have to chance of penetrating, rather than just sitting and waiting to die or running away.

 

Here is a preliminary sketch of how it would work:

 

• Upon taking a on-penetrating hit a portion of the crew's current morale meter(MM) is depleted, as well as a portion of the maximum MM. Usually the latter is considerably smaller than the former. Larger caliber guns and/or high explosive shells deal more damage to the MM.

 

• On a penetrating hit into the crew compartment of the vehicle, the crew takes massive MM damage as well as being forced to roll a check if they're gonna abandon the vehicle, regardless of the current MM value.

   

• After taking a hit, having another one coming shortly after from a different direction of 90° to the side or more will deal more MM damage than a second hit from the same direction.  Two or more attackers working together, firing at the target from both sides simultaneously, will quickly deplete its MM.

   

• The current maximum of MM can be restored by eliminating enemy targets. Eliminating a target that previously attacked you gives a bigger boost to morale meter.

 

So, thoughts?

My thoughts are... what is the intended net effect of this? What happens currently is if the driver gets killed, or the engine is beyond repair, the vehicle is considered knocked out and any live crew bail. If any crew are injured, they have decreased function. If any crew are killed.... well I think we know what that means.

13 minutes ago, DarkZenith said:

It's a nice idea, but in general any kind of penetrating hit should result in a crew bail. Tank crews wouldn't stick around once that happened, even if the tank was technically still operational. 

 

I've even read of cases where crews would abandon their tank if they so much as thought it might have been hit! 

I would be interested in reading more about this. Do you have a source?

[40plus]

On the surface, it feels too gamey

[FTC_Tobi_der_Ossi]

There are many Situations where Crews didn't bailed from Tanks after Penetrations. There are German Reports of Invasion in Poland where the Commander of a Tank got killed and a private took over his position. Yes there where situations where russians disbanded their tanks for a short amount of time when hit by Ju87G Guns, but later went back to the tank. Even after a Penetration of the Vehicle, its still safer to stay inside than go out and get mowed down directly by Machinegun fire. Such Situations where only a single crew member died or was wounded happend. To the moral system, i dont like the idea. Since not every human is the same. Some whould stay in the vehicle, especially longg served soldiers and some whould panic, mostly fresh soldiers. I like it how it is that your screen turns grey while being hit to simulate this. But a forced bail because of a single hit whould be a reason for me to stop playing this game. 

[Peasant]

2 hours ago, Tobi_der_Ossi said:

There are many Situations where Crews didn't bailed from Tanks after Penetrations. There are German Reports of Invasion in Poland where the Commander of a Tank got killed and a private took over his position. Yes there where situations where russians disbanded their tanks for a short amount of time when hit by Ju87G Guns, but later went back to the tank. Even after a Penetration of the Vehicle, its still safer to stay inside than go out and get mowed down directly by Machinegun fire. Such Situations where only a single crew member died or was wounded happend. To the moral system, i dont like the idea. Since not every human is the same. Some whould stay in the vehicle, especially longg served soldiers and some whould panic, mostly fresh soldiers. I like it how it is that your screen turns grey while being hit to simulate this. But a forced bail because of a single hit whould be a reason for me to stop playing this game. 

 

A single penetrating hit. Which is akin to someone drilling a hole in your tank's armour and blasting a shotgun shot through. One of the reasons why I stopped playing War Thunder was how that game handles such events. The vehicle sustained 5 penetrating hits that made a minced meat of 2 out of 4 crew members? Don't worry private, just keep loading and firing the gun while stumbling on top of your crewmates dead bodies piled on the floor and wadding through blood and guts covering everything inside. :D

And I dont want to see anything like this happening in a game that's supposed to be realistic.

 

Having the historically accurate numbers for armour thickness and penetration is not nearly enough to make a proper tank simulator.

 

2 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

My thoughts are... what is the intended net effect of this? What happens currently is if the driver gets killed, or the engine is beyond repair, the vehicle is considered knocked out and any live crew bail. If any crew are injured, they have decreased function. If any crew are killed.... well I think we know what that means.

 

Well, I don't like it. Engine fail is only a mobility kill, why should this prevent you from firing your gun and supporting other tanks in your platoon, potentially making a difference between a success and failure of the mission?

[LachenKrieg]

43 minutes ago, Peasant said:

 

A single penetrating hit. Which is akin to someone drilling a hole in your tank's armour and blasting a shotgun shot through. One of the reasons why I stopped playing War Thunder was how that game handles such events. The vehicle sustained 5 penetrating hits that made a minced meat of 2 out of 4 crew members? Don't worry private, just keep loading and firing the gun while stumbling on top of your crewmates dead bodies piled on the floor and wadding through blood and guts covering everything inside. :D

And I dont want to see anything like this happening in a game that's supposed to be realistic.

 

Having the historically accurate numbers for armour thickness and penetration is not nearly enough to make a proper tank simulator.

 

 

Well, I don't like it. Engine fail is only a mobility kill, why should this prevent you from firing your gun and supporting other tanks in your platoon, potentially making a difference between a success and failure of the mission?

Well I hear you, but I think it is a decent model when you consider how big the damage model/repair system is in the SIM. If your tank is repairable, then you repair it and keep fighting. If it is not repairable, then it is basically knocked out and the crew would definitely bail. IRL, they might go back with a recovery team later on, but a crew will not sit in a knocked out vehicle for long.

[Peasant]

47 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

Well I hear you, but I think it is a decent model when you consider how big the damage model/repair system is in the SIM. If your tank is repairable, then you repair it and keep fighting. If it is not repairable, then it is basically knocked out and the crew would definitely bail. IRL, they might go back with a recovery team later on, but a crew will not sit in a knocked out vehicle for long.

 

Well, this makes sense. If you were attacking enemy positions at the time you wouldnt want to get caught in between two frontlines if the attack fails and enemy counterattacks in this area. I just hope the developers would give the player the choice of when to leave an immobilized vehicle. Because even with the engine down but your crew relatively unharmed and the gun operational, you can at least have some payback before leaving. ?

[LachenKrieg]

2 hours ago, Peasant said:

 

Well, this makes sense. If you were attacking enemy positions at the time you wouldnt want to get caught in between two frontlines if the attack fails and enemy counterattacks in this area. I just hope the developers would give the player the choice of when to leave an immobilized vehicle. Because even with the engine down but your crew relatively unharmed and the gun operational, you can at least have some payback before leaving. ?

If the engine is dead, then no the crew just bails, and you have to restart the mission. But if you get caught in the open and you lose a track, or your tank stops for any other reason, then yeah that is exactly what you will be facing. Some of the most interesting engagements for me were when I was stopped with a cut track, and I had to fend off 2 or more attackers. You have to pick and choose where you place each shot, and that can be pretty challenging when you have HE rounds rattling the cage.

[Cybermat47]

4 hours ago, Peasant said:

I just hope the developers would give the player the choice of when to leave an immobilized vehicle. Because even with the engine down but your crew relatively unharmed and the gun operational, you can at least have some payback before leaving. ?

That’s already in the game, you can press ctrl+e to bail out of your tank at any time. Your crew will only bail out if you do this, or if you’re killed.

[JG27_Steini]

Game is often hard enough by bugs or hard missions. In reality live of a tank was not so hard, because it had better/more opportunities to choose from. Making the game even harder by morale system and random crew behaviour would totally destroying it. We need more functions where tank warfare is standing out. Currently everything kills you, tanks, anti tanks, planes, anti air or the map. Do not frustrate the tanker further until it get some love like infantry warfare.

[Peasant]

Another perspective to consider: you (the Player) are not the entire crew. You are just one crew member and the rest are supposed to be normal human solders living through this conflict.  A thought that after dying they can just go and re-spawn in another mission just doesn't cross their minds. You may not care whether or not your virtual avatar dies, but expecting NPC's around you to behave in the same manner feels very unrealistic to me. The game needs to take this fact into account just as much as tank gun's ballistics.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Peasant

[JG27_Steini]

On 3/17/2021 at 11:02 AM, Peasant said:

Another perspective to consider: you (the Player) are not the entire crew. You are just one crew member and the rest are supposed to be normal human solders living through this conflict.  A thought that after dying they can just go and re-spawn in another mission just doesn't cross their minds. You may not care whether or not your virtual avatar dies, but expecting NPC's around you to behave in the same manner feels very unrealistic to me. The game needs to take this fact into account just as much as tank gun's ballistics.

 

There can be much more things to be considered. Random crew behaviour, random technical failing system, random accident system, random ... and random ... and random ...

 

You should consider that is a game and a game where randomly things happen after maybe an hour of driving to the target are no fun for the majority. It is the same reason why there are no jamming guns or other randomly failing systems. 

[Peasant]

11 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

There can be much more things to be considered. Random crew behaviour, random technical failing system, random accident system, random ... and random ... and random ...

 

You should consider that is a game and a game where randomly things happen after maybe an hour of driving to the target are no fun for the majority. It is the same reason why there are no jamming guns or other randomly failing systems. 

 

I am not arguing for these things to be in the game, for the very reason you've just mentioned: they are random events outside player's direct control. On the other hand, if you expose your tank to the enemy fire for too long or drive into an ambush or let yourself get flanked, it's your fault and you deserve the consequences.

[ShampooX]

The last thing we need now is to adopt War Thunder-style crew attributes.  Their actual impact on the game is minimal and return the disruption, distrust and general unwanted "background noise" they cause is just not worth the effort.  The "random event" is that you didn't see that T-34 in the woods and now your dead.  End of story.

Edited March 20, 2021 by 11thPanzer_Pete

[beresford]

Before they do anything like this, they need crew member substitution. If a single crew member is killed, you should be able to swap another in at reduced ability. 

[Splinty]

If you were going to add morale, than veterancy and skill levels would also need to be implemented. It seems to me there would have to be "soft" factors as well. Leadership skill and crew experience come to mind.

[Peasant]

On 3/24/2021 at 2:16 PM, Splinty said:

If you were going to add morale, than veterancy and skill levels would also need to be implemented. It seems to me there would have to be "soft" factors as well. Leadership skill and crew experience come to mind.

Yes, this seems like it would be a good addition to the game, although I dislike "grinding" things in games (WoT and WT, I'm looking at you both), so I hope this is gonna be just a set of presets for the AI to be used by the mapmakers to fine tune scenario difficulty.

A green crew made up of solders from annexed territories who were conscripted into Wehrmacht, diving a Pz.38(t) in 1943 are not gonna be as keep to fight to the death as a veteran unit of Waffen SS fanatics in a Tiger.

[Splinty]

18 hours ago, Peasant said:

Yes, this seems like it would be a good addition to the game, although I dislike "grinding" things in games (WoT and WT, I'm looking at you both), so I hope this is gonna be just a set of presets for the AI to be used by the mapmakers to fine tune scenario difficulty.

A green crew made up of solders from annexed territories who were conscripted into Wehrmacht, diving a Pz.38(t) in 1943 are not gonna be as keep to fight to the death as a veteran unit of Waffen SS fanatics in a Tiger.

Agreed

[[KG]Destaex]

On 3/17/2021 at 3:52 AM, LachenKrieg said:

My thoughts are... what is the intended net effect of this? What happens currently is if the driver gets killed, or the engine is beyond repair, the vehicle is considered knocked out and any live crew bail. If any crew are injured, they have decreased function. If any crew are killed.... well I think we know what that means.

I would be interested in reading more about this. Do you have a source?

Books I have read have had novice end of war days King Tiger crews being fired at with smoke rounds by US Tank Crews to make them think they are on fire and bail out.

[LachenKrieg]

3 hours ago, [KG]Destaex said:

Books I have read have had novice end of war days King Tiger crews being fired at with smoke rounds by US Tank Crews to make them think they are on fire and bail out.

Welcome back. I haven't seen you around the forum for awhile. Good timing, because I think they are about to release the Russian AAA truck. I am always interested in reading more about WWII tank crews if you have a good source.

[[KG]Destaex]

7 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

Welcome back. I haven't seen you around the forum for awhile. Good timing, because I think they are about to release the Russian AAA truck. I am always interested in reading more about WWII tank crews if you have a good source.

Hi Lachen. Thanks for the welcome back.  The source I remember reading it in was called Death Traps by Belton Y Cooper. It's a controvertial book in some quarters because of the way it portrays Shermans as, well, "death traps".

 

I even looked up the quote for you

 

"Although the entire column was trapped, some of the veteran crews stayed cool and utilized their advantages. One of the crews of an M4 Sherman with a short-barreled 75mm m2 gun was near the middle of the column when the three King Tigers appeared on the right side. The alert tank commander immediately saw two possibilities. First, he knew that the King Tiger had a manual traverse, and it woruld be extremely difficult and time-consuming for him to swing the turret and elevate the gun to zero in on him. Next, our tank commander knew that an armor-piercing shot from his low-velocity 75mm would just bounce off the King Tiger.

In a split second he told his gunner to load a white phosphorus round. It struck the glacis plate right above the driver's compartment with a blaze of flames and smoke. Although there was no possibility of penetration, the shock in the tank must have been terrific. The entire faceplate in front of the turret was covered with burning particles of white phosphorus which stuck to the sides of the tank. The smoke engulfed the tank, and the fan in the engine compartment sucked the smoke inside the fighting compartment. The German crew must have thought the tank was on fire and immediately abandoned it. although the tank suffered little damage, had the crew stayed inside they would have been overcome by deadly fumes.

The Sherman immediately turned its gun on the second tank int he column and fired white phosphorus, with the same result. Although the ingenious tank commander knocked out two King Tiger tanks (without ever getting a penetration), his tank was then knocked out by another Tiger....................................................."

 

The net result was still that the entire column was knocked out by the remaining King Tigers. 17 m4 Shermans Destroyed, seventeen Half Tracks, three gmc trucks, two jeeps and one M36 Tank Destroyer. Because the author was part of the recovery team the aftermath and cleanup of this mess is written about in great detail. Including an interesting note about casualties being low because the King Tigers got too close to depress their machine guns enough at the men on the ground. I don't know why the US Tankers would have thought the King Tiger turret was manually traversed either.

Edited April 3, 2021 by [KG]Destaex

[Peasant]

"Warfare is as much a battle of wills, as it is about whether or not you can actually kill each other. In fact, it's probably more a psychological issue." (c) Nicholas Moran aka the "Chieftain".

[ShampooX]

I would like a +1 flaming crossbow too. 

[[KG]Destaex]

Imagine if morale mechanics were tried on our air companions?

[Peasant]

7 hours ago, [KG]Destaex said:

Imagine if morale mechanics were tried on our air companions?

You sound incredulous, as if airmen are supposed to be somehow immune to fear, unlike solders on the ground. 

[Monkie85]

Is there some point in the damage model where the tank crew bails out? Obviously an uncontrolled fire will do it, but are there other types that trigger a bailout? 

 

Unless you have a very good reason to stay in the tank any hit or penetration is pretty much going to warrant you to leave since the chances are high the next one is coming around the corner so to speak. I know I wouldn't hang around to find out.

[Frinik22]

On 3/25/2021 at 1:25 PM, Peasant said:

Yes, this seems like it would be a good addition to the game, although I dislike "grinding" things in games (WoT and WT, I'm looking at you both), so I hope this is gonna be just a set of presets for the AI to be used by the mapmakers to fine tune scenario difficulty.

A green crew made up of solders from annexed territories who were conscripted into Wehrmacht, diving a Pz.38(t) in 1943 are not gonna be as keep to fight to the death as a veteran unit of Waffen SS fanatics in a Tiger.

 

 

First of all finding a Pz38(t) on the frontlines in 1943 especially on the East front would be close to a miracle unless it was behind the frontlines used against partisans. That tank was hopelessly outdated even in 1941 during Barbarossa.

Secondly other than Volksdeutsche( ethnic Germans from outside the Reich)  no panzer crews were recruited from occupied territories unless by annexed you are referring  to Austria and the Sudetenland? In which case they are Reichdeutsche or Volksdeutsche.

Finally Waffen SS were not always or even normally fanatics. Initially they were recruited based on unquestionable ideological devotion to National Socialism and loyalty to Hitler but in 1943 with the losses suffered the recruitment standards were lowered and by far the Waffen SS panzer divisions did not differ markedly from the Heer ones in terms of fighting spirit and effectiveness. To describe all Waffen SS systematically as fanatics is like saying all Japanese soldiers were suicidal or all Kamikaze were fearless fanatics eagerly embracing death or all retreating Soviet soldiers were shot by NKVD squads.. The truth if often more nuanced.

 

As far as having a morale system fro the AI in Tank Crew I agree with the opinion that it would not be a wise idea and might hobble the AI which is already a bit dodgy. Once we have infantry introduced and combined with improved AI behaviour it might make sense. But in the current state of the game I have my doubts.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Frinik22