Russia's view on D-Day

[stiboo]

Lots in the news today about D-Day here in the UK.

 

While we wait for this weeks update, what about your opinion on Russia and D-Day?!

 

 

I've just been reading this in the news...

 

President Vladimir Putin joins the leaders of France, Britain, the United States and Germany to mark the 70th anniversary on Friday of the Normandy landings that opened the western front against Hitler's forces, catching them in a giant pincer movement as Stalin's Red Army pushed them back in the east.

But while many in the West see D-Day as the decisive turning point in the conflict, conversations in the Russian capital on Thursday reflected a widely held view here that the Soviet Union had already turned the tide of the war, in which it lost more than 20 million people, and would have prevailed on its own.

waited for us and decided to do it only when our troops started an offensive. Only then he joined the side of those who were stronger."

 

 

In a schoolchildren's encyclopedia on sale in central Moscow, the opening of the western front is dealt with in just half a sentence, in a four-page entry on the Great Patriotic War: "In the meantime the allies had opened a second front in Europe, but Soviet forces had captured the initiative in the offensive on Germany."

 

 

 

.

[Finkeren]

It seems a more fair weighing of the topic, than the Eastern Front has been subject to in Western litterature for decades. The Western Front was, after all, a side-show in terms of scope and importance.

[JtD]

I'd consider D-Day the opening of the fifth front - one in the east, one in the south, one in the Atlantic, one above the Reich, and now one in the West. About four of these five were run by the western Allies. There's a bit of poor reflection going on on both sides.

Edited June 6, 2014 by JtD

[Tab]

In Russia the battle of stalingrad is considered to be the breaking point. Everything that happened later is viewed as a consequence of that battle, i.e. the war was won at the same moment the battle of stalingrad was won.

The weighing of importance of fronts can be estimated through the german casualties across the fronts:

oh damit forum.. why you no support tables

OKW Casualty Figures Sept 1, 1939 to Jan 31, 1945

Army                  Dead        Missing & POW          Total Wounded & Sick      

Eastern Front         1,105,987   1,018,365 2,124,352    3,498,059

North: Norway/Finland    16,639       5,157    21,796       60,451

Southw.: N Africa/Italy  50,481     194,250   244,731      163,602

Southeast: Balkans       19,235      14,805    34,040       55,069

West: France/Belgium    107,042     409,715   516,757      399,856

Edited June 6, 2014 by Tab

[Finkeren]

In Russia the battle of stalingrad is considered to be the breaking point. Everything that happened later is viewed as a consequence of that battle, i.e. the war was won at the same moment the battle of stalingrad was won.

 

Even before IMHO, but we had a 30-page discussion of that in the "Free Subject" forum.

[DD_Arthur]

In Russia the battle of stalingrad is considered to be the breaking point. Everything that happened later is viewed as a consequence of that battle, i.e. the war was won at the same moment the battle of stalingrad was won.

 

Thats interesting.  I watched a German history professor on TV last night saying that D-Day has little place in German national memory of WW2 but the defeat at Stalingrad - hand in hand with the increase in air raids on German cities - is recognised as the turning point in the war for Germany.

[Feathered_IV]

"I have left the obvious, essential fact to this point, namely, that it is the Russian Armies who have done the main work in tearing the guts out of the German army..."

 

Winston Churchill, August 1944

[DD_bongodriver]

It's sad that the sacrifices that were given in that period are being measured by willy waving statistics, neither the USSR or the western allies won the war on their own nor can anyone say if they could have, Germany was defeated on 2 fronts and that's that, the West are entitled to commemorate their involvement just as the Russians are.

[IVJG4-Knight]

I will say only one thing.

I remember reading about the bombing(US ) of the factory where the bf 109 k was being designed.Delayed the 109 k entering service by about a year.

So just this little thing hugely influenced the east front imho.

Edited June 6, 2014 by IVJG4-Knight

[TheBlackPenguin]

Lots of 'little' things added up, the breaching of the Dams caused manpower and material diversions from the Atlantic wall amongst other areas, but D-Day also eventually stopped the Soviet Union overrunning the rest of Germany and perhaps even further into Europe. If the Western Allies had not created that second front, would Stalin have stopped after Germany? I guess we'll never truly know...

[Mmaruda]

You also need to consider that D-Day caused Germany to pull a lot of troops from the Eastern Front, which did have influence on events like Operation Bagration.

[Sternjaeger]

Lots in the news today about D-Day here in the UK.

 

While we wait for this weeks update, what about your opinion on Russia and D-Day?!

 

 

I've just been reading this in the news...

 

President Vladimir Putin joins the leaders of France, Britain, the United States and Germany to mark the 70th anniversary on Friday of the Normandy landings that opened the western front against Hitler's forces, catching them in a giant pincer movement as Stalin's Red Army pushed them back in the east.

But while many in the West see D-Day as the decisive turning point in the conflict, conversations in the Russian capital on Thursday reflected a widely held view here that the Soviet Union had already turned the tide of the war, in which it lost more than 20 million people, and would have prevailed on its own.

waited for us and decided to do it only when our troops started an offensive. Only then he joined the side of those who were stronger."

 

 

In a schoolchildren's encyclopedia on sale in central Moscow, the opening of the western front is dealt with in just half a sentence, in a four-page entry on the Great Patriotic War: "In the meantime the allies had opened a second front in Europe, but Soviet forces had captured the initiative in the offensive on Germany."

 

 

 

.

 

..wow, just wow, they surely don't miss a chance for a bit of propaganda stabbing uh? 

[DD_bongodriver]

Who is they?

[Sternjaeger]

Who is they?

 

But while many in the West see D-Day as the decisive turning point in the conflict, conversations in the Russian capital on Thursday reflected a widely held view here that the Soviet Union had already turned the tide of the war, in which it lost more than 20 million people, and would have prevailed on its own.

waited for us and decided to do it only when our troops started an offensive. Only then he joined the side of those who were stronger."

 

In a schoolchildren's encyclopedia on sale in central Moscow, the opening of the western front is dealt with in just half a sentence, in a four-page entry on the Great Patriotic War: "In the meantime the allies had opened a second front in Europe, but Soviet forces had captured the initiative in the offensive on Germany."

 

those having "conversations in the Russian capital"

[FlatSpinMan]

Don't try and start something guys.

If you're looking to be offended, or you're posting crappy little comments to goad someone, I'll have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about banning people for a week or so, longer if there's history. The message about our moderating stance has been displayed for long enough for everyone to have got the message.

[DD_bongodriver]

it wasn't starting anything, just thought the statement was slightly ambiguous.

 

original article is here:

 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/06/05/us-dday-anniversary-russians-idUKKBN0EG20820140605

[Sternjaeger]

Don't try and start something guys.

If you're looking to be offended, or you're posting crappy little comments to goad someone, I'll have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about banning people for a week or so, longer if there's history. The message about our moderating stance has been displayed for long enough for everyone to have got the message.

 

well I will have to deliberately bite my tongue then, I will only say that the mind boggles in front of the cold war propaganda delusion of that article.. 

[FlatSpinMan]

Bite away.

[sallee]

I wonder what the world would be like if the Red Army had had to pursue the Wehrmacht to the Channel......

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

I wonder what the world would be like if the Red Army had had to pursue the Wehrmacht to the Channel......

 

While the invasion in Normandie likely shortened the war by some years, I believe the Russians are essentially correct in their view. I think the question Sallee just posted is a lot more relevant, and for me as a Western European possibly a very compelling reason to be thankful for the sacrifice of the Western Allies.

[DD_bongodriver]

I think the Polish have a good idea of what it might have been like, the Western allies really were fighting for the liberation of Europe, the USSR had different plans.

 

Sternjaeger is right, the Russians still have a huge cold war mentality and laugh at the wests 'sideshow', My girlfriend is Russian and she didn't even know we fought in WWII.

[DD_Arthur]

I wonder what the world would be like if the Red Army had had to pursue the Wehrmacht to the Channel......

 

It would have been dull and grey and miserable.

[Sternjaeger]

The whole "what if the Russians marched all the way to Paris" would have NEVER happened. 

 

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just the Americans flexing their muscles and showing the Russian they now had a new form of weapon which changed the rules of supremacy. 

 

In a way the western allies were weak in the Yalta and Potsdam conference, and their poor decisions caused decades of subjugation of perfectly free countries to the communist regime. 

 

Again, it's a long, dangerous topic, and revisionism is dangerously back into fashion lately..

Edited June 6, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Was that article from Soviet era "Pravda"("Truth")?    Vladolf Putler should check what year it is   

[ST_ami7b5]

Maybe no need to continue this debate...

Acquisition of Crimea changed the world.

Sadly.

[MiloMorai]

How would the communists have fared if their was no SBO?.

 

The communists were of no help against Japan, only getting involved in the final few days when Japan was taking its last breaths.

[DD_bongodriver]

Well that's something Stalin needs to answer for, either way lots of Russians died for the same ends as our veterans.

[stiboo]

Nice to get other peoples views from around the globe...

 

We here in the UK see D-Day as one of the most pivotal days in history, but if you look at things from a Eastern European or Asian point of view maybe it seems different.

 

I think if D-Day never happened or was 12 months later, Russia would have stopped after taking all of Germany it wouldn't have gone into France or the Low Countries.....

 

... then again...revenge for Moscow 1812??!!

 

 

 

Have a great weekend all.

[DD_bongodriver]

Russia might not have taken Germany at all, in fact I'm sure it would have ended up a stalemate at best, I'm sure the Germans could cope with their own weather.

 

... then again...revenge for Moscow 1812??!!

 

 

Considering WWII was revenge for WWI then it's entirely possible.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It's sad that the sacrifices that were given in that period are being measured by willy waving statistics, neither the USSR or the western allies won the war on their own nor can anyone say if they could have, Germany was defeated on 2 fronts and that's that, the West are entitled to commemorate their involvement just as the Russians are.

Hear, hear!!

[SharpeXB]

The fact is that the cross channel invasion was probably the most difficult operation ever conducted in the history of warfare. If it has been attempted prior to 1944 it almost certainly would have failed. Foremost the Allies needed total air superiority over the beaches and an enormous build up of supplies. Crucially too, really the most important requirement, was that the counter intelligence "Double Cross" operation be assured of success so the Germans were uncertain of the true landing zone. This was also not complete prior to '44

Western democracies couldn't afford a fiasco of defeat. To finance the war they needed to sell war bonds and that required the personal investments of their citizens. A huge defeat like the failed invasion would have had a terrible effect on bond drives.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

I think if D-Day never happened or was 12 months later, Russia would have stopped after taking all of Germany it wouldn't have gone into France or the Low Countries.....

 

The war had taken a serious toll on the Russians too, I think you are right.

 

Here in Norway we learn that after the war, when the Allies were deciding on who got what, the Americans offered the Soviet Norway. After all, the Russians had already thrown the Wehrmacht out of Finnmark, the northern section of the country. Stalin is reported to have answered that the Soviet had no territorial claim in there.

 

Whether Stalin was considering the help Soviet POWs had gotten from the Norwegian civilians or considered Norway a barren heath of no value is uncertain. No matter what, the Soviet withdrew from Northern Norway, even though they would easily have been able to hold it had they wanted to (the Norwegian forces were few and far in between). My guess is Stalin was too preoccupied with pacifying Germany once and for all to bother with small and troublesome nations not directly relevant to that end.

[Heliopause]

Perhaps Russia had already turned the tide of war......

but it was with the help of Hurricanes, Tomahawks, Spitfires, P-39's, Boston's, Jeeps, AAguns and probably lots more.

[DD_Arthur]

 

Here in Norway we learn that after the war, when the Allies were deciding on who got what, the Americans offered the Soviet Norway. After all, the Russians had already thrown the Wehrmacht out of Finnmark, the northern section of the country. Stalin is reported to have answered that the Soviet had no territorial claim in there.

 

 

 

 

Well that's a new one on me FF!  Got any evidence at all for it.  I'm very curious.

[Finkeren]

Perhaps Russia had already turned the tide of war......

but it was with the help of Hurricanes, Tomahawks, Spitfires, P-39's, Boston's, Jeeps, AAguns and probably lots more.

 

True. The U.S. and Great Britain did contribute quite a bit, especially by sending logistical equipment of which the Red Army was in short supply. Yet, when a firefighter rescues someone from a burning building, you don't skip over his/her bravery and immediately start praising the company that made his/her SCBA-equipment, do you? 

Edited June 6, 2014 by Finkeren

[Emgy]

Well that's a new one on me FF!  Got any evidence at all for it.  I'm very curious.

 

There was a BBC docu (can't for the life of me remember the name) that claimed Roosevelt had offered Stalin the the far northern "head" of the country (if you imagine it as a guitar) because Soviet troops were in that region, having liberating it from the Germans.

 

Perhaps as part of bargaining over the division of Germany & Berlin etc.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Calvamos

[DickDong]

All fronts had a exponential and cumulative effect on the outcome.  There is a reason its called a World War and not the German Soviet War.  Anyone who thinks they were more important are just fanboys.

Edited June 6, 2014 by jarhead2b

[HagarTheHorrible]

I find the Putin's presence, interesting !

 

At least he could say with some conviction that Russians at least took part in the Normandy landings, all be it on the German side (Can't say I blame them).  At least there is some consistency amongst the junior soldiery with the aims and general direction of travel of the politburo leading up to and at the start of the war, the worst that can be said is that they were a bit slow on keeping up with events about who was fighting who.

 

Their forced return ( for those that lived) to Soviet Russia and their subsequent imprisonment or execution still lives with us, haunting our everyday politics and human rights legislation.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I think this is a legitimately interesting topic. The notion of different histories is a fascinating one. I had a very interesting conversation (although I wish I remembered more details) with someone from China about how the Korean war was seen as compared to how it was seen in the West. Similarly Overlord has a special place in Western history but not in Eastern history.

 

One of the most interesting things I read was An Army at Dawn: The War in North Africa, 1942-1943 which went into detail the Western allies debates on how to attack Western Europe effectively. Churchill favoured the "soft underbelly" attack through the Med, through Italy and into Germany while many American generals felt they could land a force by the end of 1942 or early 1943. There was in some cases little thought to the logistics involved. Stalin wanted them to open up the Western front immediately to take the pressure off... but of course none of this was really possible until 1944 (when the ships, weather, tides, tactics, and resources were all in place).

 

It's an interesting subject. I could go on for a while... but the one interesting thing I found in the interplay between East and West histories is that there are always these small interconnections. The transfer of troops and aircraft from Eastern Russia to the West after Japan attacked the US and effectively made them less of a threat to the Soviet Union which enabled the first Soviet counter attack. Or the key units stripped away from the Luftwaffe's Eastern Front to shore up defenses in North Africa taking away vital bomber and fighter units from major Eastern Front offensives.

 

There's a ton of what-if that we'll never really know.

Edited June 6, 2014 by ShamrockOneFive

[DickDong]

Here is a what if shout out to all my Polish brethren, would D-Day have been even necessary with no agreement on August 23,1939?  What does Eastern textbooks mention about that day?