Ground attackers not escorted in careers

[greybeard_52]

This is not a real complaint, because that may be right, and it is me who did not understand it. However, it is frustrating to me that when I fly a ground attack mission in a career, I am never escorted. Last time I was flying with a P-47D, and that eight-ton walrus at low altitude is practically defenseless: it took two Bf 109G-6s to massacre eight of us. What strikes me as strange is that, when flying a fighter, I often find myself escorting other fighters carrying out a ground attack mission (e.g. Bf 109F escorting Bf 109E loaded with bombs during the Battle of Moscow).
What am I doing wrong? Should I flee, hoping that the attackers stay busy with my wingmen?

[RyanR]

It's a the one frustrating fluke I have with the game. Ground attack missions are a real drag. They're borderline unplayable if you want to "complete" the mission. You almost never get escort, and assuming you get to the target without having to jettison the load, you have to fly in circles until the magic amount of time passes and the mission is completed.

 

I did an Iron Man P-47 campaign a while back. No escort. First mission we got jumped by 8 A-8's and 109's while on the deck. Jettison all the bombs. Everybody died. I managed to limp home with a plane full of holes. 

 

I started my first IL-2 career last night. I was amazed that we got air cover, as it wasn't in the mission outline. We shot up an artillery site pretty good. I had to limp out of the area and eventually ditch after catching some flak. No rudder, pilot fading out. Mission failed.

 

-Ryan

[Gambit21]

5 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

This is not a real complaint, because that may be right, and it is me who did not understand it. However, it is frustrating to me that when I fly a ground attack mission in a career, I am never escorted. Last time I was flying with a P-47D, and that eight-ton walrus at low altitude is practically defenseless..

 

It’s a theme today I guess, but yes it’s you who doesn’t understand it.

 

P-47’s were not escorted by other fighters. 

 

[greybeard_52]

Ryan,

thanks, you make me feel not alone.

 

Gambit,

of the two, one: either P-47's were massacred by Luftwaffe at each and every mission, or one or more aspects of this kind of mission is badly modeled in game.?

 

Hope developers will take it in consideration.?

[Gambit21]

19 minutes ago, greybeard_52 said:

Ryan,

thanks, you make me feel not alone.

 

Gambit,

of the two, one: either P-47's were massacred by Luftwaffe at each and every mission, or one or more aspects of this kind of mission is badly modeled in game.?

 

Hope developers will take it in consideration.?

 

Aye - were talking hard-coded AI behavior which is improving, but work to do yet. They know this.

[RyanR]

52 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

It’s a theme today I guess, but yes it’s you who doesn’t understand it.

 

P-47’s were not escorted by other fighters. 

 

 

 

 

I love this William Wyler film. Boiler plated from his "The Memphis Belle". P-47 cover each other.

 

 

 

[PatrickAWlson]

51 minutes ago, greybeard_52 said:

Ryan,

thanks, you make me feel not alone.

 

Gambit,

of the two, one: either P-47's were massacred by Luftwaffe at each and every mission, or one or more aspects of this kind of mission is badly modeled in game.?

 

Hope developers will take it in consideration.?

 

At the risk of rehashing, the game is not an accurate representation of conditions that the P47 was really flying.  In real life they hardly met opposition from the LW.  If they did then that opposition was usually badly manufactured aircraft flown by barely trained pilots.  They really didn't need escorts.

 

In the game

The planes are factory fresh.

AI pilot quality might not be slanted towards the Allies.  Not sure how career mode handles that. 

Numbers might not be heavily skewed towards the allies.

 

In a reasonably accurate career mode, 90% of LW pilots would be novice caliber, 9 % veteran, and 1% ace.  Where American and British pilots would generally be something like 10% Novice, 60% average, 29% veteran and 1% ace.  There would also be 5 allied planes in the air for every LW plane.  If the AI is equal quality and the numbers are not heavily skewed to the allies then the conditions are not the same.  

[Gambit21]

12 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

At the risk of rehashing, the game is not an accurate representation of conditions that the P47 was really flying.  In real life they hardly met opposition from the LW.  If they did then that opposition was usually badly manufactured aircraft flown by barely trained pilots.  They really didn't need escorts.

 

There were days though (as you know) when they mixed it up, got jumped etc by pilots who were plenty capable. It was the exception rather than the rule of course.

[PatrickAWlson]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

 

There were days though (as you know) when they mixed it up, got jumped etc by pilots who were plenty capable. It was the exception rather than the rule of course.

 

I tried to reflect that in what I saw as a representative breakdown of LW skills vs allied skills.  Not scientific by any means but if that breakdown was actually modelled then you would have the chance of getting caught in a bad position by good pilots.  It would just be rare.  I think right now it is almost the usual case.

 

Not trying to downplay the risks and losses these guys took either.  Much heavier losses than 8th AF escort pilots.  But that was mostly AAA and not air opposition.  I know you know that - just stating it for the general conversation  

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

AI pilot quality might not be slanted towards the Allies.  Not sure how career mode handles that. 

Numbers might not be heavily skewed towards the allies.

 

In the stock career mode, the player will face enemy fighters of Average skill level on the Moderate difficulty level. At the Hard difficulty level, all the enemy fighters will be Veterans.

 

Similarly, the number of enemy planes (and AA guns) the player can expect to encounter is tied to the difficulty level. For these reasons, I typically play Soviet fighter careers on Moderate and 1944-45 German careers on Hard. I've tried playing Soviet careers on Hard, but it's very, very difficult to survive in that environment, either for the player or the AI (which may be kind of realistic, but I really don't want to face all of JG 52 every time I take to the air).  

 

I keep hoping that one day we'll have a new difficulty level that randomizes the skill level of the AI planes we encounter, so that percentages like the ones you gave above come into play. E.g., encountering a flight of 109s over the Ardennes where the guys at the back end are hopeless rookies, but the Schwarm leader and his wingman are veterans who know all the ins and outs of how to fly and score kills.

Edited March 11, 2021 by LukeFF

[DBFlyguy]

3 hours ago, RyanR said:

 

 

 

I love this William Wyler film. Boiler plated from his "The Memphis Belle". P-47 cover each other.

 

 

 

Such a good documentary! I hope someday the footage gets restored and expanded on like what was done with "The Memphis Belle" which became  HBO's "The Cold Blue"

 

 

[greybeard_52]

16 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

the game is not an accurate representation of conditions that the P47 was really flying

Very nicely posed.

 

16 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

90% of LW pilots would be novice caliber, 9 % veteran, and 1% ace.  Where American and British pilots would generally be something like 10% Novice, 60% average, 29% veteran and 1% ace

WOW! Where did you find those numbers? I searched such statistics for years, finding only second hand, unsourced figures. In IL-2 1946 it is possible to set AI skill mix into databases for campaign mission generator.

 

13 hours ago, LukeFF said:

In the stock career mode, the player will face enemy fighters of Average skill level on the Moderate difficulty level. At the Hard difficulty level, all the enemy fighters will be Veterans.

 

Similarly, the number of enemy planes (and AA guns) the player can expect to encounter is tied to the difficulty level.

Interesting! I'm playing at easy level. Indeed, I too think that a mixed set of enemy AI skills would be more realistic. I wonder how are set AI skill of mates, at the various level of difficulty.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Interesting.  When I host missions online for my friends, I always set the AI to "High" or "Ace" only, which means I open the missions that I generate in SYN_Vander's Easy Mission Generator in the mission editor, and change all the AI fighters settings.  Setting them to "Low" or "Normal" only presents you with targets in a shooting gallery.

[PatrickAWlson]

4 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

Very nicely posed.

 

WOW! Where did you find those numbers? I searched such statistics for years, finding only second hand, unsourced figures. In IL-2 1946 it is possible to set AI skill mix into databases for campaign mission generator.

 

Interesting! I'm playing at easy level. Indeed, I too think that a mixed set of enemy AI skills would be more realistic. I wonder how are set AI skill of mates, at the various level of difficulty.

 

The numbers came from an orifice not to be mentioned  .   There is no way of mathematically mapping a game device like AI skill level to real human beings, but one is obliged to try if one wants to create a campaign.  Those are the numbers that I would use if I wanted to portray the situation of 1945 in the game as it was.   The idea would be that the core of the German fighter pilot corps has been gutted.  What is left is a relatively small group of grizzled survivors and young pilots who are lucky if they don't kill themselves on takeoff.  

[RyanR]

18 hours ago, DBFlyguy said:

Such a good documentary! I hope someday the footage gets restored and expanded on like what was done with "The Memphis Belle" which became  HBO's "The Cold Blue"

 

 

 

I know the 9-ish hours of Wyler's Memphis bell footage is in the Library of Congress, I wonder if the same is true for Thunderbolt? The Cold Blue was amazing. I had a VHS copy of Wyler's Memphis Belle in the 1990's that I pretty much wore out, so I was super familiar with the all that footage that made it into The Belle movie. It was incredible to see the restored footage. It was even more incredible to see it on the big screen at our local cinema!

 

-Ryan

[greybeard_52]

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

The numbers came from an orifice not to be mentioned  .

?

 

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

There is no way of mathematically mapping a game device like AI skill level to real human beings, but one is obliged to try if one wants to create a campaign.

True, thanks for your answer.

[Mac_Messer]

On 3/11/2021 at 9:33 PM, LukeFF said:

 

In the stock career mode, the player will face enemy fighters of Average skill level on the Moderate difficulty level. At the Hard difficulty level, all the enemy fighters will be Veterans.

 

Similarly, the number of enemy planes (and AA guns) the player can expect to encounter is tied to the difficulty level. For these reasons, I typically play Soviet fighter careers on Moderate and 1944-45 German careers on Hard. I've tried playing Soviet careers on Hard, but it's very, very difficult to survive in that environment, either for the player or the AI (which may be kind of realistic, but I really don't want to face all of JG 52 every time I take to the air).  

 

I keep hoping that one day we'll have a new difficulty level that randomizes the skill level of the AI planes we encounter, so that percentages like the ones you gave above come into play. E.g., encountering a flight of 109s over the Ardennes where the guys at the back end are hopeless rookies, but the Schwarm leader and his wingman are veterans who know all the ins and outs of how to fly and score kills.

Valuable info. So flying the P38 dynamic career I should change from Medium to Easy. To achieve result of minimal antiaircraft positions and maybe two-three enemy fighters to bag after my bombrun.

 

What I`m afraid is the Novice/Average AI. It flies and shoots VERY well for such a label.

[Sybreed]

On 3/11/2021 at 10:00 AM, RyanR said:

It's a the one frustrating fluke I have with the game. Ground attack missions are a real drag. They're borderline unplayable if you want to "complete" the mission. You almost never get escort, and assuming you get to the target without having to jettison the load, you have to fly in circles until the magic amount of time passes and the mission is completed.

 

I did an Iron Man P-47 campaign a while back. No escort. First mission we got jumped by 8 A-8's and 109's while on the deck. Jettison all the bombs. Everybody died. I managed to limp home with a plane full of holes. 

 

I started my first IL-2 career last night. I was amazed that we got air cover, as it wasn't in the mission outline. We shot up an artillery site pretty good. I had to limp out of the area and eventually ditch after catching some flak. No rudder, pilot fading out. Mission failed.

 

-Ryan

 

The problem with the mission not getting completed is that the AI doesn't know that it needs to use bombs on the "hard targets" like tanks and will instead use them on AAA units that could just be strafed. If you have a mission where you need to kill massed units, you'll be stuck watching your teammates fire their .50 on Tigers instead of bombing them. At one point, the game becomes tired with you and you get a mission accomplished prompt.

 

IMO, AI behavior should be programmed like this (I never done AI programming so forgive how raw it will look)

 

Nearing objective : Hard targets (like tanks): use Bombs

Soft targets - If mission objective --- use bombs

Soft targets - If AA units --- strafe with mgs

 

But I don't know if the AI can be programmed to differentiate hard and soft targets.

 

This bad behavior has been reported before but it still isn't fixed. Fortunately, a dev seems to be looking into it.

[oc2209]

I just started a P-47 career for the first time. I'd rather fly the razorback (it's lighter and a little faster), but I don't have Normandy yet. I'm therefore stuck with the bubbletop. In 4 sorties, I haven't accomplished much. But I haven't had my flight slaughtered yet, either. This is the most exciting sortie so far:

 

 

We downed 6 109s for 3 Thunderbolts lost. I caused at least 3, probably 4, of those 109 kills with maneuvering. By which I mean, I was damaged and lured 109s into making diving attacks on me while I was on the deck and weaving. But most of them had been damaged, at least lightly, by my wingmen (who thereafter got credit for the "kills"). I'm unsure how much their damage affected their handling, which may or may not have contributed to the crashes.

 

Anyway. I never fly with bombs. I start with 60% fuel and don't carry extra ammo. I let my wingmen have full fuel (in the above sortie; not subsequently) and extra ammo. I go a few thousand feet higher than my flight in an attempt to make the AI go after me first.

 

In my last sortie, I went so far as to cut my guns down to 4, with extra ammo. A total weight savings of about 400 lbs. I feel the handling improvement, but I'm not sure it's worth the loss in killing power.

 

Edit: career difficulty set to hard, frontline set to sparse.

Edited March 14, 2021 by oc2209

[RyanR]

12 hours ago, Sybreed said:

 

The problem with the mission not getting completed is that the AI doesn't know that it needs to use bombs on the "hard targets" like tanks and will instead use them on AAA units that could just be strafed. If you have a mission where you need to kill massed units, you'll be stuck watching your teammates fire their .50 on Tigers instead of bombing them. At one point, the game becomes tired with you and you get a mission accomplished prompt.

 

IMO, AI behavior should be programmed like this (I never done AI programming so forgive how raw it will look)

 

Nearing objective : Hard targets (like tanks): use Bombs

Soft targets - If mission objective --- use bombs

Soft targets - If AA units --- strafe with mgs

 

But I don't know if the AI can be programmed to differentiate hard and soft targets.

 

This bad behavior has been reported before but it still isn't fixed. Fortunately, a dev seems to be looking into it.

 

 

The AI ground attackers do pretty well when I'm flying an escort mission. It's fun to watch them circle and attack with rockets and bombs and then strafe, watching the targets disappear one by one.

 

IMHO, how much ground target gets destroyed, or what gets destroyed, isn't that important for "immersion's" sake. Most of the excitement for me is everything else about the mission. Getting there, dodging patrols, etc. My "workaround" is to use the "follow me" radio command to high-tail it out of the target area if things get too hot. You don't get the "completed mission", but at least not everyone dies.

 

I guess most of my frustrations are because I'm still working my way through the campaigns. Flying VVS fighters in BoM and BoS makes the occasional ground attack mission pretty hairy. Strafing with 7.62's isn't very productive, and you really want to bank that ammunition to fight your way back home if you get jumped by 109's.

 

-Ryan

 

 

 

[blitze]

I found my P47 career pretty tough when confronted by Luftwaffe.  That on Moderate Difficulty and Dense Frontline.

 

I might try Low Difficulty and see how that goes but I haven't spent much time on the P47 tp learn how to utilise it best against flying opposition.  Ground attack missions as stated see tanks being straifed and and bombs being waisted.  Same with River Crossing attacks in general when it comes to AI and bombing.

 

Maybe a work in progress for AI.

[oc2209]

7 hours ago, RyanR said:

 

IMHO, how much ground target gets destroyed, or what gets destroyed, isn't that important for "immersion's" sake. Most of the excitement for me is everything else about the mission. Getting there, dodging patrols, etc. My "workaround" is to use the "follow me" radio command to high-tail it out of the target area if things get too hot. You don't get the "completed mission", but at least not everyone dies.

 

 

Not sure how campaigns work, but my method is proving effective in regular career mode.

 

To clarify, I'm in command of my unit, but not of each flight. I leave that to the AI. So I decide how much ammo and fuel everyone gets. Then, as I describe above, I go ahead of, and above, my flight. Interestingly, I can personally be bounced by the 109s meant to intercept us, but my flight doesn't react. They happily go on to their target. As long as the interception flight spots me first, they seem to go after me exclusively. In other sorties where I'm not spotted ahead of my group, the AI will attack my entire flight.

 

I realize what I'm doing is effectively 'gaming the game' but the OP asked for solutions, so that's what I'm offering. While it's not standard Allied practice to bait entire flights of 109s... it's pretty fun in game terms. As dumb as the AI can be, it still does not make my job easy.

 

 

Look at that Top Gun 109 attacking me inverted. You can see from my exhaust trail just how close I came to getting pasted.

 

 

Flying below treetop level, if the terrain permits.

 

 

At this point in the battle, I was running my engine on continuous power; I cut my emergency and combat off early as a precaution to not burn up my engine, since I'm still over enemy territory at this point, and gliding home from altitude is not an option. With my extensive wing damage, I also couldn't fly at full speed anyway. I needed rudder to counteract the plane's intense desire to wing over. I'm averaging about 190 MPH on my way back home. With 2 109s on me for most of that time.

 

 

As wide as these missed shots look, it is not fun trying to side slip with a damaged wing at low speed, on the deck, in a fat plane. This is why I never enter a short range mission with more than 60% fuel or extra ammo.

 

 

A trail of dead 109s no one shot. Notice my wingmen successfully completed the mission. No friendly losses. 

 

 

My career so far. No, I haven't scored a single ground kill. But I still consider this a successful strategy. Overall though, I do enjoy the unconventional approach to keeping friendlies alive while satisfying mission parameters.

 

 

[Sybreed]

8 hours ago, blitze said:

I found my P47 career pretty tough when confronted by Luftwaffe.  That on Moderate Difficulty and Dense Frontline.

 

I might try Low Difficulty and see how that goes but I haven't spent much time on the P47 tp learn how to utilise it best against flying opposition.  Ground attack missions as stated see tanks being straifed and and bombs being waisted.  Same with River Crossing attacks in general when it comes to AI and bombing.

 

Maybe a work in progress for AI.

See my post above about AI in ground attack scenarios. AA are the highest priority so AI will drop bombs or rocket them first. 

[twilson37]

To be quite frank I don't fly the stock Bodenplatte campaigns, I always switch to PWCG for the reasons discussed above.  The probability of encountering Axis aircraft is just too high, even on low settings. I flew one Spitfire Mk IX campaign, for 10 missions straight I was providing ground troop cover, always encountering 190s always shooting 2 or 3 of them down, meanwhile flying P-47 campaigns I am flying at low altitude in a heavily loaded P-47, getting bounced by FW-190s every other mission. I am not saying the Luftwaffe didn't exist in mid-1944 just not as frequent as the game suggests. I would rather see not seeing enemy aircraft 80-90% of the time and the other 10-20% seeing way to many of them for comfort.

[oc2209]

5 hours ago, twilson37 said:

 I am flying at low altitude in a heavily loaded P-47, getting bounced by FW-190s every other mission.

 

After 10 sorties, I believe I've had exactly 1 where my flight was not intercepted. So yeah, that seems excessive. I actually want 190s to do the intercepts, though; I can handle those. With flaps, and as long as you have some emergency power or boost left, you can turn inside an A-8. I just shot down two and gave a third an oil leak (which for some reason is not as frequently fatal to the AI's engine as it is to mine). The only real danger the 190 poses is in head-on passes. Or if it catches you unaware, but that's true of any enemy.

 

The 109 is the real nemesis to P-47s on ground attack sorties, as the AI will endlessly boom and zoom you, and there's nothing you can do in response. Granted, the AI will eventually crash in these attempts, but not before at least damaging you first. All I can do is head for home and evade. The 190 is much less effective in death from above attacks, as it can't climb almost straight up after each pass. I can therefore 'lure' it into turn fights.

 

I might be able to turn the tables on 109s once 150 octane fuel is available in my career. 190s at least will be significantly easier to deal with.

 

Edit note: I forgot to mention, I managed to enter a sustained turn in a 47 at around 150-60 MPH, 20% flaps, no stalling. Despite the horrible shuddering the 47 does as if to indicate a stall, it's actually a very hard plane to stall or spin out. I do things to it that I could never do with a 190. Presumably because of the gigantic wings versus the 190's stubby wings.

Edited March 15, 2021 by oc2209

[Gambit21]

6 hours ago, twilson37 said:

 I am not saying the Luftwaffe didn't exist in mid-1944 just not as frequent as the game suggests. I would rather see not seeing enemy aircraft 80-90% of the time and the other 10-20% seeing way to many of them for comfort.

 

See my sig.

[migmadmarine]

I do wish there was a historically accurate setting available for span rates/mission rates in the career mode, even if it means never seeing enemy aircraft in a 1944/45 career as the allies. Sure, it may be less exciting some times than dogfights nearly every mission, but not being able to ever complete ground attack missions gets frustrating. 

[blitze]

10 hours ago, Sybreed said:

See my post above about AI in ground attack scenarios. AA are the highest priority so AI will drop bombs or rocket them first. 

I know which is a pity as AA only requires MG's to deal with them.  Knocking out AA early on does make sense but not with ordinance that is required for harder targets.

[johnthesavage2]

Hey,

 

Ive been flying fighter and ground attack planes recently and Ive noticed that some missions as a fighter pilot include escorting ground attack planes but flying in a ground attack plane we're not provided a fighter escort. Is there any reason for this? I have had several experiences where my flight has been intercepted by enemy fighters and Ive had to drop my bombs or stop my attacks and defend myself. To me that kind of takes away the point of being a ground attack pilot I mean if I wanted to fight enemy planes I would be a fighter. Also because actual bombers get an escort I dont see how it could be so complicated.

 

Those are just my thoughts on that. Am I missing something? Or is that something that could come in the future? It would be a better experience to be able to focus on attacking ground targets and not having to stay alert all the time for enemy fighters. 

[Yogiflight]

Yep, best fighter career is the ground attack career of the FW190 A5. You can't get more fighter action in any fighter career.

[RyanR]

21 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Yep, best fighter career is the ground attack career of the FW190 A5. You can't get more fighter action in any fighter career.

 

Agreed! Plus, it's the first plane that makes strafing fun as you work your way up from Battle of Moscow. A MiG-3 does not strafe vehicles effectively. Totally opposite when I transferred to 190A-5's in Kuban. We hit a vehicle column, and it was my first time with the new explosions. A pair of 20mm's is almost amazing. I made a few sloppy passes, but somehow hit near enough to a fuel truck. WOW.

 

-Ryan

[Sybreed]

3 hours ago, RyanR said:

 

Agreed! Plus, it's the first plane that makes strafing fun as you work your way up from Battle of Moscow. A MiG-3 does not strafe vehicles effectively. Totally opposite when I transferred to 190A-5's in Kuban. We hit a vehicle column, and it was my first time with the new explosions. A pair of 20mm's is almost amazing. I made a few sloppy passes, but somehow hit near enough to a fuel truck. WOW.

 

-Ryan

Yogi meant that in the FW-A5 career, you'll spend more time doing dogfights than actually doing ground attacks, because you will be intercepted 75% of the time by fighters before you reach your target, hence why it's the best fighter career while it shouldn't be that way.

[Yogiflight]

6 hours ago, Sybreed said:

you'll spend more time doing dogfights than actually doing ground attacks, because you will be intercepted 75% of the time by fighters before you reach your target,

Either that or you circle over the target until finally some Russian fighters come along to slaughter your squadmates.

[Juri_JS]

I don't know how other air forces did it, but later in the war Luftwaffe ground attack units would provide their own escort when no dedicated fighter units were available to do the job. In Fw-190 units the escort flights did either not carry bombs or they only had a single bomb on the fuselage rack that would be jettisoned when enemy fighers where encountered. The escort flights always flew without wing bomb racks to improve manoeuvrability.

It would be great if such escort missions could be part of fighter-bomber careers.

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

I don't know how other air forces did it, but later in the war Luftwaffe ground attack units would provide their own escort when no dedicated fighter units were available to do the job. In Fw-190 units the escort flights did either not carry bombs or they only had a single bomb on the fuselage rack that would be jettisoned when enemy fighers where encountered. The escort flights always flew without wing bomb racks to improve manoeuvrability.

It would be great if such escort missions could be part of fighter-bomber careers.

That is exactly, what I would like to see in career mode. Was it the same way for the 110s on ground attack missions? From what I read here in the forum, they usually didn't have escorts from fighter units either.

[Juri_JS]

17 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Was it the same way for the 110s on ground attack missions?

As far as I know the use of special escort flights was only used by Fw-190 units. I think the system was only introduced when enemy opposition in the air became too strong after mid-1943, when the Bf-110s were no longer used in the ground attack role.

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

I don't know how other air forces did it, but later in the war Luftwaffe ground attack units would provide their own escort when no dedicated fighter units were available to do the job. In Fw-190 units the escort flights did either not carry bombs or they only had a single bomb on the fuselage rack that would be jettisoned when enemy fighers where encountered. The escort flights always flew without wing bomb racks to improve manoeuvrability.

It would be great if such escort missions could be part of fighter-bomber careers.

 

The 1944 combat reports I've read from Typhoon squadrons show that a flight of Typhoons without bombs/rockets would be used to escort the other ones to the target.

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

The 1944 combat reports I've read from Typhoon squadrons show that a flight of Typhoons without bombs/rockets would be used to escort the other ones to the target.

 

In Liepfert’s diary (109 pilot) he mentions that at first they were escorting the 190’s. Then one day he pulled up next to one and raced it...the 190 pulled ahead of course.

 

After realizing the 190 “bombers” were faster and quite able to take care of themselves, they stopped escorting them. This is of course one squadron in one region of Russia - so no idea how wide spread this was.

[Alexmarine]

13 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

.The escort flights always flew without wing bomb racks to improve manoeuvrability.

It would be great if such escort missions could be part of fighter-bomber careers.

 

Would be great if the F3/8 mods would let us take only the centerline rack and not give us mandatory wing racks every time

[Juri_JS]

11 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

After realizing the 190 “bombers” were faster and quite able to take care of themselves, they stopped escorting them. This is of course one squadron in one region of Russia - so no idea how wide spread this was.

I don't think this was the norm. When enough fighters were available ground attack aircraft would usually get an escort. When there weren't enough fighters the Luftwaffe often used another tactic. Fighter units instead flew freehunt mission in the sectors of the front were ground attacks would take place to achieve temporary air superiority. In the east this worked quite well because Soviet fighters would rarely fly deeper into enemy territory so the danger for ground attack aircraft to get intercepted before reaching the front was relatively low.

When Soviet air superiority became too strong, Fw-190 ground attack units had to change their tactics. Targets were approached at high altitude and attacked by diving through the enemy fighter screen. After dropping their bombs the aircraft escaped into friendly territory at high speed. During such attacks the units escort flights would drop their bombs first and then pulled up to cover the rest of the formation.

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Juri_JS