Some praise for the latest AI build.

[oc2209]

One more test for the day.

 

3 quicks, 4v4, all ace AI. Low altitude, head-on starts. All enemies were 109G-6s.

 

In a Yak-9, I got 3 kills. 1 enemy crashed on its own. In the Yak-9T, I got 3 kills, my wingmen got 1. In the Spitfire IX, I damaged one before I was shot down. My wingmen got no kills and 1 was shot down besides me.

 

For the 4th quick, I switched sides to have 109F-4s versus Yak-9s. I got 2 kills before I was damaged and forced to land. My wingmen got no kills. 2 Yaks survived but disengaged (evidently) due to lack of ammo. I only had 1 flyable unit left of my 4 planes (and he was damaged).

 

The key in these fights, I believe, is how quickly I can shoot down an enemy plane and thereby change the balance of power. In Yaks, I can shoot down 1 plane within the first 30 seconds of the fight. In the Spitfire, I was on a target's tail fast enough, but because I hate wing-mounted guns, I can't kill quickly. In the 109, I can work pretty quickly, but Yaks are slightly harder to catch in a 109 than vice versa.

 

So the friendly AI definitely still needs me to do most of the work. Why this is, I can't say.

 

Also, something you don't want to see when looking out the window:

 

 

Luckily I noticed it before I put any stress on it, or it'd have snapped right off like a dry twig.

[Mandoble]

2 hours ago, oc2209 said:

So the friendly AI definitely still needs me to do most of the work. Why this is, I can't say.

 

You may retry switching your plane to full auto-pilot mode, you would be just an spectator inside your own plane.

[Yogiflight]

12 hours ago, LukeFF said:

I can look into adjusting the Bf 110 E-2's mission set, so it doesn't fly so many air-to-air missions. 

I really do appreciate your efforts, but this won't really help the player, as most of the ground attack missions are fighter missions, too, just with an additional handicap, because of the bomb racks (especially the wing racks cost some speed and therefore maneuverability) and usually maximum fuel load. What really is needed is an escort. If it is correct, that the 110s were flying escort themselves, because fighter squadrons didn't do it, then an escort of 110s, either of the player's Staffel or another Staffel of the Gruppe, the player's Staffel is part of.

[Angry_Kitten]

The AI has been interesting, and I have seen some odd stuff at times. 

 

1. The AI gunners on the B25 NOW actually shoot at me. Seriously before they wouldnt even when i flew 6'oclock high on them for minutes at a time. 

 

2. The B25 gunners if they are close CONVERGE on me together

 

3. I have had C47 pilots actually fly low and lure me over AA guns on the ground. That actually surprised me when i saw those tracers going by. 

 

4. Successive pilots seem to get smarter and smarter. TO the point that the first one is barely smart enough to avoid ramming me. The 2nd is able to dodge and turn and act like they want to live.  The 3rd 4th 5th will actively get into turn fights with me and make multiple ramming runs on me. TO the point that the 5th one has actually kamikazed me, say im flying parallel with them at 300 meters distance, the novice AI pilot will actually roll and try to get me. 

 

I have done 3 2x2 flights and EACH time the AI wingman simply flys AWAY.    TO the point that i shot one down, and oddly enough the bugger didnt even try to avoid being killed.  

 

[oc2209]

20 hours ago, Mandoble said:

You may retry switching your plane to full auto-pilot mode, you would be just an spectator inside your own plane.

 

Right, but I should have also mentioned the purpose of my testing was twofold; in this case I wanted to see how my ability in each plane impacted the greater AI difficulty/better aiming.

 

It's clear to me that if you're not flying a plane you're proficient with, the (ace level) AI will dominate you. Hence the degradation in my performance from one plane to another. If I flew a P-47, I wouldn't even get my guns on a single target before being shot down, most likely.

 

***Edit:

 

True to my word above, I did, in fact, done get blowed up in a P-47 test without seriously damaging any enemies. Also got flamed in a P-38, but that was after stupidly trying to do a climbing turn with 2 109s on my ass. I did shoot down 2 prior. In the P-51, I shot one down before going down myself (in another climb attempt--this is why I don't try more vertical maneuvers).

 

Interestingly, my best American plane performance was in the P-39. I got 3 kills and survived the fight. All my wingmen survived too. Probably because I got 3 kills pretty quickly. But the point here, is, the P-39's pretty decent at keeping up with a 109G-6. At low altitudes, of course.

Edited February 21, 2021 by oc2209

[oc2209]

Okay, just going to wrap up my testing.

 

Using the same setup, 4v4, AI on both sides set to Ace; 300m starting altitude, head on. The enemies for the following 3 tests are all 109G-6s, default configuration. 

 

In a Tempest, I shot one down before being hit myself. Lost 1 wingman besides. No other kills scored. Test ended early due to death. 

 

In an La-5FN, I got 2 kills, survived, wingmen got 2 kills. No friendly losses.

 

In a Hurricane (with engine mod, Russian guns), I got 3 kills, wingmen got 1 kill, 2 wingmen lost.

 

In a Yak-9 versus Fw-190A-6s, I got 3 kills, one enemy crashed for unknown reasons, and all my wingmen were shot down.

 

Some lessons here, from my perspective:

 

The AI does well (against other AI) in planes with high roll rates, like the La-5 and Fw-190. It does not use turning planes to their full potential. The AI also seems less useful with wing-mounted guns than nose-mounted. The exception is the Fw-190, but its inboard guns are nearly nose-mounted.

 

Anyway. After all of this testing, I'm still happy with the (enemy) AI's performance.

[Mandoble]

Lets hope all we are perceiving is not just random good encounters as it really seems to be in the right direction.

I'd like to see a "layer" of pilot's personality over the plane type as well. So that different aces have different top qualities and flying styles when flying a particular plane type. 

[Zeev]

On 2/19/2021 at 7:32 PM, Gambit21 said:

 

Again, for the hundredth time, that is not an AI issue, it’s a mission design issue - easily mitigated with proper logic.

[40plus]

On 2/19/2021 at 12:09 PM, 40plus said:

I'm curious to see how well these improvement shave translated over to Flying Circus. My experience there, 8v8 in the QMB with reasonably matched crates and Ace pilots, is a one sided bloodbath with myself getting 5-8 kills. Has anyone tried such a match in FC since the patch?

 

I've answered my own question. This is the first time in the longest time that I've been hit in such an engagement (8v8 D7 vs ace camels). Unfortunately it was a wingman that shot me. The AI is definately more aggressive and shoots more readily but we're back to the old days when wing men will shoot through you at the enemy you're tailing.

 

 

Still, was more exciting and fun.

[Gambit21]

58 minutes ago, Zeev said:

 

That can be used or ignored by the mission designer. 

A few are a bit too thick get a hold of this however.

[Chief_Mouser]

On 2/20/2021 at 6:15 AM, oc2209 said:

.

 

Also, something you don't want to see when looking out the window:

 

 

Luckily I noticed it before I put any stress on it, or it'd have snapped right off like a dry twig.

 

Had that in the Hurricane. Landed and taxying when I noticed the wingtip at a funny angle. It fell off before I parked up. Also downed a couple of 109s lately by lucky shots that pinged the end of the wing leading to it falling off a few seconds later. Good stuff!

[Taxman]

4 hours ago, 40plus said:

 

I've answered my own question. This is the first time in the longest time that I've been hit in such an engagement (8v8 D7 vs ace camels). Unfortunately it was a wingman that shot me. The AI is definately more aggressive and shoots more readily but we're back to the old days when wing men will shoot through you at the enemy you're tailing.

 

 

Still, was more exciting and fun.

When I see tracers flying past me I will pull up and try to see who is firing at whom.  If it is a friendly firing at the same target I just get out of the way .  Most of the time the AI might do some damage, I will then come in and finish the job.  Then I will thank the AI for making my job easier.  

[oc2209]

4 hours ago, 216th_Cat said:

 

Had that in the Hurricane. Landed and taxying when I noticed the wingtip at a funny angle. It fell off before I parked up. Also downed a couple of 109s lately by lucky shots that pinged the end of the wing leading to it falling off a few seconds later. Good stuff!

 

In my experience, Hurricane wings can take a beating. Must've been some cannon strikes, I imagine. By contrast, 109 tips break off with Russian .50s pretty easily. I normally don't aim for wings, but in the 109's case, it makes sense. That single spar is just asking for it.

 

A 109 book I have contains a Stuka gunner's account of how escorting 109s hit in the wing or tail (usually by ground fire) would invariably go down.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The AI 109 G6 Late set on Ace will put up a very convincing fight, right up to the time when you reverse on him, shoot, and have both his rads trailing water vapor, and the main tank leaking fuel, a condition in which any sane pilot would disengage  or bail.  But not our intrepid AI, oh no, he will continue to engage in violent vertical maneuvers and take high deflection snap shots at you.

 

Really a bit over the top.

Edited February 22, 2021 by BlitzPig_EL

[oc2209]

18 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

a condition in which any sane pilot would disengage  or bail.  But not our intrepid AI, oh no, he will continue to engage in violent vertical maneuvers and take high deflection snap shots at you.

 

I love those death from above attacks. I mean, yes, it's a stretch, but it's also on Ace. We should expect such things from aces. The only absurdity is that we can make all our enemies in a given engagement aces.

 

As for what sane people would do... yeah... that's not the best criteria. Once, while in a Yak-9, I was wounded early in the fight, and had an oil leak. I rammed the throttle to full, did a greyout turn to get behind the 109 that hit me. Emptied every last round I had to shoot the effer down. Needless to say, his friends weren't happy about it:

 

 

They took shots at me while I was landing in that gap between the trees in the middle of the screen.

 

And this is how bad I looked while still going after the 109 (minus the bent prop):

 

 

No surrender! Until your engine quits. Then surrender.

[oc2209]

In a new 109 Moscow career on hard mode. Swarms of cannon-armed I-16s used to be fodder for my virtual ego. Not anymore. Even cannon-less MiG-3s are dangerous.

 

Just some regular results for my plane in 11 sorties:

 

 

 

 

The first two screens are game over; but the last one, I got pissed off and still flew despite having light engine damage and a leaking something or other.

 

Here's the superb performances of my wingmen (I find they do better with extra 20mm guns):

 

 

 

Until our Gotterdammerung...

 

 

I should've been dead six times over in this sortie. I had so many I-16s on me. 9 in the first flight, then more came later, then some P-40s showed up. In all these huge battles, no one on either side (that I've witnessed) does a swan dive into the ground. I'm not saying it doesn't happen anymore; but these deaths are all from being shot. My wingmen do pretty well until sheer numbers get the better of them.

 

[Ram399]

1 hour ago, oc2209 said:

these deaths are all from being shot

Combat between AI pilots is definitely a lot more dangerous now both for the AI and the player, I haven't had this much fun with IL-2 career mode in a while its great.
That Feldwebel you have in the last flight who managed 3 kills and brought his plane back intact despite being wounded might be one to watch lol.

[Angry_Kitten]

On 2/21/2021 at 7:02 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

The AI 109 G6 Late set on Ace will put up a very convincing fight, right up to the time when you reverse on him, shoot, and have both his rads trailing water vapor, and the main tank leaking fuel, a condition in which any sane pilot would disengage  or bail.  But not our intrepid AI, oh no, he will continue to engage in violent vertical maneuvers and take high deflection snap shots at you.

 

Really a bit over the top.

looks around....  

 

we ARENT supposed to do that?

[oc2209]

I've been noticing something interesting in how the AI responds to me. Ever since I gave command of my flights to the AI (while still retaining command of my wing management), I break off from my group to attack enemy fighters by myself. My logic is that I'm screwing with the enemy AI by having it focus on me, thereby giving my wing a chance to fulfill its mission (in this case, shooting down at least one IL-2 to satisfy interception requirements).

 

Many times, lately anyway, I've noticed this:

 

 

This is a standard formation of I-16s, escorting IL-2s over Stalingrad. 9 enemy fighters in total. Notice, however, how one has broken off from his formation to the left of the screen? He's heading straight for me to attack me. Meaning the remainder of his flight will still go on to attack my flight. They are, it seems, ignoring me for the moment.

 

I just find this display of AI logic intriguing. Ideally, 2 I-16s would break off to attack me, which would still leave 7 to attack my group of 5 109s.

 

I have another shot here, showing just how quickly the enemy can get on your tail:

 

 

I had no clue another I-16 was behind me here. I fired on the I-16 in the foreground, and then, before clearly finishing him off, I broke. It's just a reaction I've learned to do from paranoia. Fire and break. Dive with some rudder into a tight spiral, until I almost hit the ground. Then I clear my tail visually, and pop back up to altitude.

 

Even with these tactics, I had multiple 7mm hits to various parts of my plane. I just got lucky to avoid being hit by the 20mm.

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by oc2209

[Ram399]

 

5 hours ago, oc2209 said:

one has broken off from his formation

While I can't speak with any certainty about what happened to you in that mission, I have noticed a tendency in AI flights for the leader to display a higher level of aggression and situational awareness when compared to his wingmen.

What may have happened here is that the leader noticed you approaching before the rest of his flight did and broke to engage, and then once you got closer the others realized and came in to assist.

[oc2209]

15 hours ago, Ram399 said:

What may have happened here is that the leader noticed you approaching before the rest of his flight did and broke to engage, and then once you got closer the others realized and came in to assist.

 

It's hard to say exactly what the AI is thinking; just that it seems to be a departure from the usual 'everyone attacks you in one giant blob formation' if you're spotted before the rest of your flight.

 

In the old days, I could stand a chance of going 1v9, scoring some kills, and not getting hit. Now that would be impossible. I can still evade on the deck and be largely unhittable, but I can't shoot anything down. If my targets keep turning endlessly (which they don't anymore), I can theoretically shoot them down without ever stopping (i.e, flying straight and level). It's when they stop to jink that I get pasted by their wingmen. Again, in the old days, I had easily 10+ seconds of freedom to shoot down a jinking target before their wingmen could get a fix on me. Now, as you can see in the above screen, I have about 3 seconds of freedom to get off a shot.

 

All in all, the AI behavior forces you to fly and shoot more or less perfectly; when you're outnumbered at least.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

I want to bump this thread and praise the AI programmer for vast improvements made to the AI in terms of both wingmen and opponents in recent months...while we need a proper ai command system and wingmen who better follow orders, the single player experience is now very immersive due to ai that will kick your butt if you get sloppy (but also will now disengage). I now find the AI in GB better than any current generation sim. Keep up the good work in this department because we are getting there!