Can we discuss the AI flown MC 202?

[BlitzPig_EL]

 

First off, I'd like to say that I really like flying the Macchi in the sim.  It's a very interesting and good handling bird, and let's face it, the thing is sexy as hell.  I have no issues with it's flight modeling as flown by human players, none.  That said, when controlled by the AI it's a completely different aircraft, in ways that the Bf 109s and FW 190s simply are not.  The BlitzPigs have been flying against the AI Macchi for a long time in several missions I run, and over time we all have come to a consensus about this plane because it is so different than fighting the AI in any other bird, no matter which side we fly for, to wit:

 

1: We have never forced an MC 202 AI to black out, ever.  Something that we see in every other type we fly against (AI piloted).

 

2: The Macchi seems to have vast energy retention, shockingly so.  The AI will be pulling a sustained high G turn and then just pull up out of it like it had a sudden injection of an additional 1000hp.  One of my squad mates says it's like dogfighting against a bat.  It's simply other worldly the way it transitions from turn and burn to a boom and zoom rocket ship. No other aircraft in the sim seems to do this to the degree that the AI controlled Macchi does.  God forbid the AI ever gets their virtual hands on an MC 205 Veltro.

 

I'm not one to come in here and whine about FMs, and before you say that I harp on the P40's performance a lot, that is not an issue with it's handling dynamics, but with the engine rating given it in the sim.  I really feel the AI controlled Macchi 202 needs a looking over by the devs.  Regardless of what the spreadsheets they have may say, something isn't quite right here. 

 

As I said, when we fly it, it's a great plane, one of my favorites in the sim actually, so please set your flame throwers to the lowest setting whilst I pull on my nomex.

 

Cheers, EL

 

 

[Rjel]

I've got to agree with how much fun it is to fly. Just using it as an aerobatic airplane mostly. I'm not sure I've ever flown against it as an AI fighter. 

[Ram399]

I don't think I've ever flown against an AI 202, I'll give it a shot and report back.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Just for the sake of more info, I used to set all the AI in my missions mostly to "Ace", I am now trying "High" with the MC 202 only.  I know the AI have gotten better over time, which is great, but I may have to continue lowering the Macchi's AI skill level to achieve a believable performance from her AI overlords.

[Thad]

This is a pleasant surprise... the Macchi AI is too good. ?

[Rjel]

12 minutes ago, Thad said:

This is a pleasant surprise... the Macchi AI is too good. ?

I think the Ace AI exaggerates any of the better points of a given fighter's flight model. With that comes predictability. But because we all think we're Aces too, of course Ace AI is what we choose. When I set up a quick DF mission I set the AI to random. I've had some very interesting fights where the AI does much more than just pull high G turns continuously. What level of AI I'm fighting then, I can't say. But, it does seem to maneuver much more randomly. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Rjel

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

Do 1v1s vs He-111s or Ju-88s and wonder why Germany didn't use them primarily as fighters.  Also wonder why reproductions aren't the preferred aircraft of summer Olympics aerobatics teams.

 

Shoot at only 1 horizontal stabilizer (full assembly, not just elevator) off of any 190 and external view as there's zero counter-adjustment from any other control surface as the thing max-turns in a stupid loop for minutes on end.  

 

Watch as any AI pulls sustained turns so tight they completely ignore elevator loading or pilot fatigue.

 

Get hit by light machine gun bullets nowhere close to the control surfaces of a P-38 and watch as they fly off.  Accidentally collide with only the wingtip of a P-38 (barely enough to smash the wingtip nav light) and watch BOTH booms break off behind the cockpit. 

 

Turn on the "I" key panel for G-force info as you watch your P-51 pilot not get any aid from the G-suit and get tired like a little bitch twice as fast flying the same maneuvers at the same speed as any other Allied plane you can pick. 

 

Line up perfectly to a Ju-87s low-6 blind spot and regret it instantly.  

 

Then, get back to me.....   

 

[oc2209]

I'll always use an excuse to test the AI and flight models. I've flown against the Macchi before (only in quick, against AI), and my opinion before today was that it was more difficult to catch than its stats indicate (like turn times and top speed at sea level), but overall I never noticed it being unrealistic.

 

Today, I tested it in a winter map, at 300m starting altitude, head on, against the AI. I was in a 109F-4, a Yak-9, and a Spitfire IX in the tests.

 

I enter each fight as I always do against any opponent. On the approach, I veer left (always left) with some rudder and banking, in a bit of a skid, and I stay lower to make the AI's aim more difficult if it takes a shot at me as it passes over me. Before we're nose-to-nose (figuratively), I break into a sharp turn. This only works in planes that turn well, obviously. The AI invariably flies more or less straight as I pull in behind it (if I botch my turn, it will react differently). It then breaks into a right-hand turn (that is, it breaks into me). At this point I turn on emergency power and follow the Macchi through its break.

 

At this point, I believe, the AI makes a calculation. I'm unsure of the how and why of it. Sometimes the AI will sustain a turn and allow me to shoot it from deflection. But more typically, it will fall out of its turn when it can tell I'm about to overtake it, and it begins to weave and jink and cut throttle. As it weaves in an almost pendulous fashion, I can predict its movement. I get to within about 10-15m, whereupon I try to kill the pilot with a short burst; failing that, there's a very high probability I'll do catastrophic damage elsewhere.

 

In this particular series of engagements, I shot the left horizontal stabilizer off twice. Clean off. Once, the Macchi fell into a fatal spin shortly after. The second time, it maintained control and could enter sustained turns.

 

Overall, the Macchi couldn't escape me any more easily than any other plane. On 3 tests, I had the AI difficulty set to Ace; on 1 test, I set it to Random. I didn't notice any difference in behavior.

Edited February 7, 2021 by oc2209

[Ram399]

That was a pretty nasty surprise I must admit.
Flying the MC. 202 myself I've always known it as fairly responsive and relatively quick for its time frame but you are correct, the AI gets way more out of it than I can.

I was able to beat the ace AI in it in every aircraft I tried, but in every case outside of the Spitfire Mk.Vb it wasn't an easy fight (In AI terms).
There was a moment when I had it pretty dead to rights in a fairly low energy state flying a Bf-109, and then it started out-turning me and I had to drop flaps to keep up.

I might have a theory as to why the AI might be at least somewhat more capable with it than we are though.
As we all likely know, the MC. 202 has asymmetrical wings as a means of counter-acting the propeller torque which should hypothetically make it easier for the plane to stay coordinated in flight.

I can't speak for anybody else, and certainly not for someone who has spent a fair amount of time in the 202, but something that I have noticed whenever I fly the Macchi is that in sharp turns and maneuvers I consistently put in either too much or too little rudder as I fail to account for the airframe doing parts of my job for me.

The AI, of course, is better at staying coordinated than any of us ever will be as it knows the exact amount of yaw required at all times- and it isn't the least bit thrown off by the quirks of having a longer wing.

As such, at least in terms of turn performance and energy retention, I think the AI's superhuman coordination skills combined with the Macchi's quirky wing balance is whats giving the aircraft such an edge.

I could be completely wrong but that's the only plausible reason I could think of.

Plus I was also unable to force the AI to blackout, and when flying the plane myself found it surprisingly difficult to blackout as well.
Not sure if this has something to do with the more rearward cockpit position on the fuselage or what, for all I know too much Spaghetti Carbonara has turned the pilot's blood into sludge and the bloodclots won't let it out of his head.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Ram399

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, Ram399 said:

I was able to beat the ace AI in it in every aircraft I tried, but in every case outside of the Spitfire Mk.Vb it wasn't an easy fight (In AI terms).
There was a moment when I had it pretty dead to rights in a fairly low energy state flying a Bf-109, and then it started out-turning me and I had to drop flaps to keep up.
 

 

It occurred to me that I was maybe testing the Macchi with planes that were a little too advanced for it. Which 109 did you use? An E-series would technically be fairer than the F-4 I used.

 

I went back just now and used a Yak-1 against the Macchi. I was able to get on its tail using the same methods I described above. Once I overshot him as he wallowed, and then getting on his tail again proved more troublesome than the initial head-on encounter; but nothing extraordinary.

 

Also, here's one way to take down a Macchi:

 

 

I was doing my typical approach at point blank range, and because the Russian 20mm is less reliable in scoring easy kills than the German 20mm, I had to press my attack too long, trying to get a fatal hit. I ended up ducking under him to avoid collision, but his prop destroyed my vertical stabilizer.

 

More to the point, I was able to turn with the Macchi at about 2000ft, going between 175 and 190mph, in order to catch him in the above screen.

[Ram399]

43 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

Which 109 did you use?

I also tried to make things somewhat fair but in the other direction, I was using the Bf-109 G4- though I also spent a decent amount of time toying with the AI to see how they would respond to different maneuvers.

I would imagine that the F4, while at parity in terms of service introduction, would probably be easier to take up against the 202.

I had a harder time taking out the Macchi in the P-38 and only managed to do so by diving down low and getting the AI to overshoot while pursuing me.
(It should be noted that I am definitely not a P-38 pilot)

The most difficulty I had was flying against it in the P-40, that was actually hard.
Unless I managed to kill the 202 within the first two minutes of the fight, it would devolve into a situation where the Macchi continuously boom and zoomed me and all I could do was turn into him.  This generally continued for up to 10-15 minutes before I would manage a head on pass and down the 202.

I definitely noticed another detail from OPs post while flying the P-40, which is that the AI 202 zoom climbs like a Bf-109 on speed.

Edit: Yeah the Bf-109 F4 trounces the 202 just as well as the Spitfire Mk.V does.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Ram399

[BlitzPig_EL]

4 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

Turn on the "I" key panel for G-force info as you watch your P-51 pilot not get any aid from the G-suit and get tired like a little bitch twice as fast flying the same maneuvers at the same speed as any other Allied plane you can pick. 

 

This may be a factor of the mission date.  Allied G suits are only available after a date sometime late in 1944, I do believe.

 

Oh, and Gents, the point I'm trying to make here, which seems to have blown by some of you at supersonic speed, is NOT that the MC 202 cannot be shot down, I do it all the time, but rather that it behaves in an utterly unrealistic manner for an aircraft with it's power output. And one more thing, being "fair" in your choice of planes to fly against it is not how you should be going at this.  Use Allied aircraft only please.

Edited February 8, 2021 by BlitzPig_EL

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

Oh, and Gents, the point I'm trying to make here is NOT that the MC 202 cannot be shot down, I do it all the time, but rather that it behaves in an utterly unrealistic manner for an aircraft with it's power output. And one more thing, being "fair" in your choice of planes to fly against it is not how you should be going at this.  Use Allied aircraft only please.

 

I don't believe I got the impression it was impossible to shoot down; the question was always a matter of degree of difficulty in shooting it down. I don't see a problem.

 

I also don't see the point in using only Allied aircraft against it. If it has unrealistic handling abilities, that shouldn't be opponent-specific.

 

I've got some videos I just made. I know everyone loves my low-framerate, low-distance setting, videos. But seriously, I want to show what I mean when I say I don't believe the Macchi has any special tricks up its sleeve. The Macchi in the Yak-9 clip is being exceptionally annoying; most aren't that tough. Even so, it doesn't feel unrealistic to me. But I'll let the viewers decide.

 

Yak-9 versus Macchi:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WpBZlNpx58

 

109F-4 versus Macchi:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwH6eVBr7N8

 

[oc2209]

4 hours ago, Ram399 said:

I had a harder time taking out the Macchi in the P-38 and only managed to do so by diving down low and getting the AI to overshoot while pursuing me.
(It should be noted that I am definitely not a P-38 pilot)

The most difficulty I had was flying against it in the P-40, that was actually hard.
Unless I managed to kill the 202 within the first two minutes of the fight, it would devolve into a situation where the Macchi continuously boom and zoomed me and all I could do was turn into him.  This generally continued for up to 10-15 minutes before I would manage a head on pass and down the 202.

I definitely noticed another detail from OPs post while flying the P-40, which is that the AI 202 zoom climbs like a Bf-109 on speed.

 

Not to ask an insulting question, but did you empty half the P-38's fuel before starting the sortie? And carry no extra ammo. I say this because the P-38 can easily keep up with the Macchi.

 

 

Just have to pour on emergency power, and turn, turn, turn until the AI gives up. Only difficult part compared to chasing him down with a single-engine plane, is that it's harder to track the Macchi's defensive weaving once you've pulled him out of his turn.

 

I'm not at all surprised the P-40 was troublesome. To be honest, I never bought it (or the Macchi) because I think they look statistically inferior. If a plane can't turn in 20 seconds or under, I want nothing to do with it. 109s are the only exception I make to that rule.

 

If you really want a seal-clubbing feeling, put the Russian guns on the Hurricane, plus the improved engine. You'll be stuck on the Macchi's tail like glue no matter what it does to evade, to the point you'll need to worry about collision.

[Ram399]

1 hour ago, oc2209 said:

but did you empty half the P-38's fuel before starting the sortie? And carry no extra ammo.

I did not, it was on full fuel and ammo, as was the MC 202.

Also, watching the videos you posted you might want to try moving the initial engagement level upwards to say 3000 meters or so.
The 202 seems to do better at higher altitudes, and incorporating verticality to the fight seems to bring out some of the capabilities OP is talking about.

 

4 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

it behaves in an utterly unrealistic manner for an aircraft with it's power output.

While it does seem to me like the AI can outperform human pilots in the MC. 202 in certain specific situations, I don't think I would call it utterly unrealistic.
While I do see what you mean with regard to the AI quickly shifting from a high-G turn to a sudden climb, I've done nothing but chase Macchis for the past few hours I've yet to see one pull that maneuver without some sort of predicating turning dive to build-up speed beforehand. 

I can't speak for the real-world performance of this aircraft, but there does at least seem to be some kind of physical logic behind how its moving, I wouldn't call it a UFO.

It seems to me that the plane is very good at retaining energy by default, and in a shallow dive can pick up speed surprisingly quickly. 
The AI exacerbates this with their super precise coordination control, and given an altitude advantage on ace difficulty will be content to continuously stay above you and abuse their ability to dive and repeat.

I decided to try the most even matchup possible and flew a 202 against another 202 with the intention of following the AI's moves exactly.
I was able to do everything the AI could with it, and did so in several runs at various altitudes, the only exception I noticed was that in long sustained turns the AI was able to hold the plane very close to a stall better than I could, and as such was getting slightly better turn performance.

I recorded one of these extended turn fights and then timed the AI's turning circle- it was consistently completing full circles at a range from 22.7 - 22.9 seconds at sea level, which matches the indicated statistic in game of a max performance turn being 22.6 seconds at sea level.

In short I think the AI just clicks with the Macchi for some reason, and is squeezing all the performance possible out of the plane.
Now if they were to actually learn how to hit a target, then we might be in trouble.

If I could try to relate to your experience somewhat more, what are the conditions of some of the missions where you and your squad are dealing with these Spaceship 202s?

Edited February 8, 2021 by Ram399

[oc2209]

2 hours ago, Ram399 said:

I did not, it was on full fuel and ammo, as was the MC 202.

Also, watching the videos you posted you might want to try moving the initial engagement level upwards to say 3000 meters or so.
The 202 seems to do better at higher altitudes, and incorporating verticality to the fight seems to bring out some of the capabilities OP is talking about.

 

 

I started to fly the P-38 on half fuel when I learned what a difference it made with the P-51 and 47. It handles like a single-engine plane, so long as it's not bloated with fuel.

 

I took your advice with the 3000m. I normally fly on the deck because I find the proximity of the dirt comforting. The AI uses altitude more intelligently than I do. But I went out of my comfort zone anyway, for science.

 

I used a Yak-9, a 109F-4, and the P-38. The Macchi rarely tried to climb. I stuck closest to it with the Yak; so close, in fact, that all he did during that fight was dive. Right to the deck.

 

Once, against the 109, he tried to climb away after much horizontal and diving manuevering. He did not gain any distance from me in a steep climb, and I punished him accordingly.

 

Against the P-38, he did some pretty brutal (in terms of Gs) wide spiraling dives, and also attempted to zoom climb only once. Again, I was able to keep up with him.

 

The only significant differences between high and low altitude (well, more like mid and low altitude; but 3k meters is high to me) were the following: I blew a lot more ammo, because I couldn't get right up on the Macchi's ass like I do at low altitude; and secondly, I burned through my G-endurance much faster, as the AI uses space so freely when it's available. However, the AI seemed to lay off the Gs at the same time I was flirting with zero endurance. So at no time did he force me into a grey or blackout. But I would've been close without careful throttling back during certain maneuvers.

 

Each individual combat took about 3:30 minutes.

[Angry_Kitten]

The 202 is a really nice plane. Great weapons loadout, and its nimble.   

 

Oddly, im confused about this "rudder" talk.  Ive just been doing alot of bank/pull back on the stick for my turns. Its been helping me deal with NOVICE level AI pilots in C47s that try to fly like the NOVICE AI in a SE5A