chiliwili69 Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 After reading carefully the thread of LOFT and Don_Kojote in http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/6251-discussion-questions-developers/page-4 I couldn´t believe what I was reading, it was like being in a nightmare were everything is confuse and strange, and what it worse, you can not make nothing to avoid it. I think the topic deserve itself his own discussion here. Let´s try to summarize what LOFT was writing in the above thread: 1. BoS team spend time on support and try to communicate with Oculus team with no success 2. BoS team can`t affect their plans or their future 3. Oculus don´t provide new devices (ie DK2) asap 4. Oculus don´t sell devices for everyone 5. Oculus don´t say “this game is good with Oculus, try it” 6. So: “START BRAKING PROCEDURE”: Stop the integration of the Rift in the BoS (logically also RoF) Let review one by one: 1.- We need to understand that Oculus is now a big one company with amazing changes in just one year. The former communication channels couldn´t work as previously worked since roles and responsibilities will still be defined. There is also many game developing companies trying to get exactly the same that BoS team wanted. But despite of all this, I think it is worth to keep trying with the support of the BoS community. We all can write posts to Oculus support requesting a better support for BoS team. You can do this here: https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8990 2.- Oculus is becoming now a large company, they have sold more than 100.000 Development Kits (DK1 and DK2 pre-orders). It is almost impossible that a game company can affect now the plans of Oculus. Their future market is all the world and all the games but the seated games firstly. In the same way we almost can not affect the plans of Google, Microsoft Windows, Intel CPUs, Apple… we can not affect plans of Oculus. Like in Windows we will need to adapt to their hardware. But Flight Simulators is a nice market for Oculus. 3.- I think that important software companies like (777-1C Games) should get the DK2 earlier than the general release of July. Most of the 25000 preorders of the DK2 are from Rift fans rather than serious software companies. Some of them already have it: http://n4g.com/news/1518596/elite-dangerous-dev-working-with-oculus-dk2 Again, put your posts in the Oculus forum requesting higher support for BoS team. 4.- The DK2 is sold to everyone. Oculus recommend that if you are just a Rift freak it is better to wait for the CV1, but this is up to you. I have preorder two DK2 (one for the process modeling company I work, and another for my own pleasure) 5.- There is a specific section in the Oculus forum dedicated to Oculus ready games, there is many games already supported and the community can tell you which one is well implemented: DCS: www.youtube.com/watch?v=rno6BH4ZuXI Elite Dangerous: www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxAjdSZTOT0 EVE Valkyrie: www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVIwQztak7M (Jason tested it in January) Star Citizen: www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVq82H4MD0g (they improved it recently) Other like X-Plane or AreoFly FS are working actively on the support of the rift. Also people from this forum can share their experiences with the implementation of the Rift in other flight simulators. But despite of all this, the BoS team has been working with the Rift from almost a year and already implemented in HD, so the team should already know a lot about that to continue the integration with the new DK2 or any future devices. 6.- LOFT, did you order the “braking procedure” from this bridge: ;-) https://share.oculusvr.com/app/the-bridge-of-the-enterprise Well, all this is a question of business and return on investment. BoS will be released in September, when probably there would be around the world like 40000 DK2 (and increasing). All people will be Wooowed by the DK2, there will be many media content talking about that. If BoS is targeting the midcore player (I am a mid core to soft core player) and having a target of 200.000 copies, it is clear that the support of the Oculus at the release time will help to boost sales significantly. The Rift is for me the most amazing piece of hardware for game simulators, even better than the ZXSpectrum at their times. If you brake now you will be a follower, not a leader. In this market not being first is not forgiven. Please, reconsider your position, poll the forum, and let us know how we can help BoS/RoF teams to don´t delay too much the support of the rift.
Sim Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 +1, I really don't get why they are stepping down from the Oculus Rift train.. DCS guys seem to be doing it alright: For those in attendance, Oculus VR will be showing the DK2 with DCS at ITEC 2014. - Wags ... also DK2 impressions by Wags: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2065231&postcount=2121
Rjel Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) I've read LOFT's post several times now. I think you're reading more into it than is really there. I'd wait til Zak or BlackSix can maybe get some clarification. I read LOFT's comments to mean more that BoS' success and introduction wasn't going to rely on Oculus Rift to make BoS a successful product. Edited May 31, 2014 by Rjel
Zak Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Do you guys think that OR support can significantly improve BOS sales?
Tab Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) I think it has to be understood as "game first, gimmicks later". Also imho Oculus Rift has not proven yet that it will be a viable display solution for a combat flight sim. Edited May 31, 2014 by Tab 1
JtD Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Do you guys think that OR support can significantly improve BOS sales? I don't. Which is why I started this poll about a year ago. Back then, you were hell bent on supporting it, I'm surprised to hear that now you think it's not worth it. Also, looking at the poll, which might need a bit more input from more casual players, it shows that there's quite a bit of interest.
Panzerlang Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Do you guys think that OR support can significantly improve BOS sales? Like lack of 64-bit and DX10/11 etc it'll just further paint BoS as being old-tech and nobody could be arsed to bother. It's about reputation as much as anything else.
Schmalzfaust Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Do you guys think that OR support can significantly improve BOS sales? VR will be a big thing in future when it gets to the mainstream, and sims like BoS are made for VR, so ... YES!
steppenwolf Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) Do you guys think that OR support can significantly improve BOS sales? Significantly? Not really. Only cutting edge unique game content does that. Many don't even use TrackIR yet, and its been out for years. Edited May 31, 2014 by steppenwolf
Sternjaeger Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Well I hate to say "I told you!!!", but hey, I told you!!!
Matt Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 I can't really understand the change of plan, after BoS already supported and was "tuned for optimal compatibility" with the OR. http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?do=findComment&comment=16943 http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?do=findComment&comment=25430 Nearly one year ago, it sounded like atleast some of the devs thought that it was one impressive new thing on the market and could really improve the immersion in flightsims and they were eager to implement it into BoS. So far, i'm hoping for some third party tool which will allow OR use in BoS. Or eventually official support, even if it doesn't increase sales significantly. 1
SR-F_Winger Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) Do you guys think that OR support can significantly improve BOS sales? I think that if you do not support OR then peoiple WILL go to other SIMs that do support. I mean honestly. Just take a look around in the sim developer landscape. Do you see any devteam that denies support of OR? I dont. And that is for a really good reason. Please do yourself a favor and keep working on support for the Rift. If you dont it will hurt you in the long run. EDIT: Just order a few DK2 and youll have them by august the latest. Those few hundred bucks cant really be an investmenthurdle. Youll get all the support you need over in the forums. There are lots and lots of other developers who are really willing to help since there is one thing that unites them. Theyve see it and are believers. Sticking your head into the sand is the wrong way. Oh and directly on your question: I bought BOS in good faith that there will be OR support. And i honestly hope you reconsider. Edited May 31, 2014 by VSG1_Winger
SR-F_Winger Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 If you brake now you will be a follower, not a leader. In this market not being first is not forgiven. Please, reconsider your position, poll the forum, and let us know how we can help BoS/RoF teams to don´t delay too much the support of the rift. everything else you said but THIS especially.
Matt Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Actually, i was gonna post, that it would help if BoS would be on the Oculus Rift supported games list on Wikipedia, but as it turns out, it's already there as "confirmed" anyway. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_Oculus_Rift_support
JG4_Raven Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 I have purchased Bos only because of the Oculus Rift. We need the support. I have the DK 2 ordered me so I can play Bos.
Sandhill Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Common sense suggests that Bos will support OR when doing so will make them money. That simple. 2015? 2020? I'm sure they'll get on board the minute that doing so will flow cash TOWARDS them, in the meantime why not just leave that judgement up to them?
Schmalzfaust Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 I have purchased Bos only because of the Oculus Rift. We need the support. I have the DK 2 ordered me so I can play Bos. TBH half a year ago or so when I had my DK1 I was not sure if I should buy BoS. Then when I read about OR support, this was one big reason I've bought it two days later.
chiliwili69 Posted May 31, 2014 Author Posted May 31, 2014 TBH half a year ago or so when I had my DK1 I was not sure if I should buy BoS. Then when I read about OR support, this was one big reason I've bought it two days later. I ordered my DK1 in Oct-13 and bought BoS few weeks later mostly because it was going to support Rift. At the same time I decided to properly invest in a chair and Hotas since I considered that it was the right time (Rift/BoS/RoF planets aligned) to do it. I was a casual player with RoF from the early days and bought TrackIR, but you will not believe me if I tell you that my TrackIR is in the closet since I have the Rift. I prefer to use the flat monitor with no TrackIR until rift is supported. Or try other rift compatible demos/games meanwhile.
chiliwili69 Posted May 31, 2014 Author Posted May 31, 2014 Do you guys think that OR support can significantly improve BOS sales? People who has not tested the Rift in a flight simulator game or demo can not properly answer this question. Rift users will buy BoS/RoF if supported, BoS/RoF users will buy Rift if supported. Chicken or egg, what if first. As an easy test and as the render engine is the same, you could first introduce support to the Rfit for RoF and measure the market reaction. I am not a rich person, but I will be able to pay 50-100€ for getting the rift DK2 support as a feature in the RoF.
AA_Engadin Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) Do you guys think that OR support can significantly improve BOS sales? Another POV, do you think not supporting OR will improve sales? And what if getting OR support later adds a couple of years to the sim's life, in other words, makes it more durable in the market? But, OTOH, what will happen to the sales figures should other competing WWII sims get OR support before BoS does? I am prone to be more positive towards the quoted statement. And I also guess that OR will become mainstream in one or two years time, when resolution and other bits are maxed out, in other words, more or less, just one or two years before the middle of BoS lifetime. I really don't see the need to be among the first riding the wave in this case. Let's the rest do the hard part to pave the way and then we will follow. BoS is spectacular enough already, no need to add more strobe lighting to the show by now. No need to rush to a honey pot already packed with flies. I even see more profitable for all of us, 777 and simmers community, waiting to extend BoS life with OR support added in the future. TIR still makes my day. AA_Engadin. Edited May 31, 2014 by AA_Engadin
FuriousMeow Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) TBH half a year ago or so when I had my DK1 I was not sure if I should buy BoS. Then when I read about OR support, this was one big reason I've bought it two days later. Oh and directly on your question: I bought BOS in good faith that there will be OR support. And i honestly hope you reconsider. So you guys don't care for air combat sims? Apparently you've purchased others prior to BoS and there was no OR support or even rumors of it. Seems a little dramatical at this point. I am looking forward to seeing the OR CR, and will buy that if, and only if, the screen door effect is gone and the resolution can support flight sims. If it can't, I still have TiR and won't bother purchasing the OR. I won't go to other sims that "support" OR if the OR can't support flight sims. This still isn't acceptable: Edited May 31, 2014 by FuriousMeow
Rjel Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Personally, I think if these upcoming VR units had been on the market for a couple of years and had become mainsteam peripherals, then 777 would indeed be missing the ball. But no one knows yet what effect these units will actually have on a large number of users long term. Maybe none, or maybe motion sickness or eyestrain from extended play will start causing problems. If VR doesn't turn out to be what most of us want and hope for, then a lot of wasted effort might have been put into BoS that could have been used to create a better sim. A bad sim using VR is still a bad sim. 3
JG27_Chivas Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Do you guys think that OR support can significantly improve BOS sales? Of course it will. VR is the future of simming, and its coming sooner than most people think. VR will bring new people to simming who were never interested in the genre, or any gaming for that matter. This phenomenon has been seen alot lately when non gamers of all ages have tried VR, and immediately shown interest, when there was none before. Your development hopes the sales of your product will warrant many years of future theaters, and sales. I understand that implementing VR costs money, and your on a tight budget, but you may want to give VR a little higher priority. That said I assume you plan to eventually support VR. Loft appeared to be very high on the OR when he tried it, Jason, not so much, but I think that was partially due to his support for TrackIR and early VR prototypes that weren't up to the task. You already have my current support, and monies, but any further support and monies will go to combat flight sims that support VR. I can't see myself flying without VR just as in the past I wouldn't fly or support sims without TrackIR. My interest in simming has wavered considerably over the last year, but I'm quite sure my interest in flying, and DCS, will spike considerably when my DK2 arrives in July.
sport02 Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) someone had try dk2 with DCS , and he says that resolution is so bad for sims , he can't read instruments and Hud , he can it only if is move near screen . Edited May 31, 2014 by sport02
Schmalzfaust Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) So you guys don't care for air combat sims? Apparently you've purchased others prior to BoS and there was no OR support or even rumors of it. Playing flight sims for about 13 years, bought every sim, bought plenty of hardware for a lot of money for those sims... so I would say I care about air (combat) sims. BUT did you try the OR? It's a milestone for us simmers. Sure DK1 has a very bad screen for our needs (reading panels, spotting enemies etc.) but it is really like you are sitting in there. Only things that are missing are G-forces and haptic feedback, that's all! So, IMO it is absolutely a must have feature for this and all other flight sims. Edit: I've sold my DK1 about 3 month ago because I tested it enough and wanted all my money back for later CV. Now I'm playing BoS with TrackIR. Sure it works pretty well. I also could control my rudder with my joystick axis but I've bought a separate rudder to control it, just because it's more realistic. Edited May 31, 2014 by Schmalzfaust
FuriousMeow Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 You don't usually see businesses invest $2 billion in a flash-in-the-pan. Oculus' success is pretty much guaranteed. Actually, a lot of business investments fail - even billion dollar ones. Now this will succeed, I don't think they'll see a return on the billions but there will be money recouped. It will be for FPS games unless they can get OLED screens for dimes with amazing resolution. This is a niche product, not like TiR - that is even more niche, but like feedback systems or joysticks. Unless they can get a screen capable of amazing resolution, it will be worthless product for this genre. Great for CQB, terrible for this genre. Playing flight sims for about 13 years, bought every sim, bought plenty of hardware for a lot of money for those sims... so I would say I care about air (combat) sims. BUT did you try the OR? It's a milestone for us simmers. Sure DK1 has a very bad screen for our needs (reading panels, spotting enemies etc.) but it is really like you are sitting in there. Only things that are missing are G-forces and haptic feedback, that's all! So, IMO it is absolutely a must have feature for this and all other flight sims. Yeah, BUT the resolution matters more than "sitting there." If you can't see anything, then its a pointless product. I'd rather a monitor with TiR that I can read the instruments and see the planes far away, than "I'm sitting here... but in a tub of vaseline."
Schmalzfaust Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Yeah, BUT the resolution matters more than "sitting there." If you can't see anything, then its a pointless product. I'd rather a monitor with TiR that I can read the instruments and see the planes far away, than "I'm sitting here... but in a tub of vaseline." 100% agree. Resolution (at least 4k) is a must, at least for air combat sims.
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 100% agree. Resolution (at least 4k) is a must, at least for air combat sims. No, it's a must for a few, for most a 1440p will be surprisingly good.
FuriousMeow Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) No, it's a must for a few, for most a 1440p will be surprisingly good. Gonna be pretty hard to clickpit if you can't read the instruments. And, for a few, so only a few more sales which isn't enough to warrant development until OR can prove itself resolution wise. 1440p a few inches from your face is surprisingly ugly. I want it to work and succeed, but if it can't bring the resolution and doesn't have any lag - I will not use it for this genre. I'll probably buy the CR after consumer release reviews, should be cool with FPS titles but unless it is clear, concise and lag free - it'd only be good for Flight Simulator. Edited May 31, 2014 by FuriousMeow
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Gonna be pretty hard to clickpit if you can't read the instruments. reading instruments will be easy-peasy on 1440p
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 And, for a few, so only a few more sales which isn't enough to warrant development until OR can prove itself resolution wise. 1440p a few inches from your face is surprisingly ugly. I want it to work and succeed, but if it can't bring the resolution and doesn't have any lag - I will not use it for this genre. I'll probably buy the CR after consumer release reviews, should be cool with FPS titles but unless it is clear, concise and lag free - it'd only be good for Flight Simulator. Oculus won't need this genre to succeed, most people have the right idea and are latching on to the future of VR.
Jason_Williams Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Guys, First, we are not stepping away from Occulus support. You are taking Loft's statement a little far. We are simply not pursuing it as hard as we were because every time we get close to proper implementation something changes. Hardware, requirements, Facebook etc. and right now we need to be focused on completing our project with as few distractions as possible. We have an open line of communication with Oculus and I have shown them BOS in their office several times now and gotten their feedback. We are simply waiting for the new Dev Kit hardware to hit. I have two on order. We have asked OR for DK2 hardware to be given to us asap. Whether we get them or not is up to OR. There is more I could say, but can't due to NDA. But I will say that in my discussions with the OR folks, the reality of sim development and perceived OR ready game-play are not always a complete match. We've made a big effort to support OR so far. However, until the hardware is up the job and the requirements are easily understood we are not going to release support for it publicly. There is a lot of hype surrounding OR and it is a going to be a good product and probably a successful one assuming devs support it. But supporting it, at least in this early stages is pretty complex work and we need to keep our eye on the prize. I think the fact that you see OR jumping into the game publishing and development biz shows that the whole accessory/developer process is an inexact science. I dealt with this when I was at Naturalpoint and I see OR going through some of the same issues, albeit with a lot more mojo on their side. Jason 1
FuriousMeow Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) Oculus won't need this genre to succeed, most people have the right idea and are latching on to the future of VR. I know. That was already stated. FPS games will do very well, the CQB variant. ArmAIII, unless scoped you'll be at a huge disadvantage. The hardware isn't up to the task of open worlds, only small closed environments. That is the fact, and currently the only thing OR can demonstrate. Edited May 31, 2014 by FuriousMeow
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 I have the hardware and am fully aware of what it can demonstrate, you are not correct sorry.
FuriousMeow Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 I have the hardware and am fully aware of what it can demonstrate, you are not correct sorry. The truly unfortunate thing is that you want to prove me so wrong that you must state things that contradict yourself. The resolution is currently 960x1080 with the DK2. That is the announcement of it. http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/03/oculus-rift-dev-kit-2-launches-with-960x1080-resolution-lower-latency/ The other problem is this post by you: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/2584-elite-dangerous/?p=123867 "My first thought was 'come on DK2 hurry up and arrive', but using the DK1 is good enough to give the sense of scale of things, this is going to be truly awesome in the rift, with all the futuristic computer information the game portrays it seems to suffer less from the low resolution issue that a WWII flight sim is likely to, with the rift on your face and some decent stereo headphones and you really are shot off into the stars." So knowing the resolutions, so far there isn't one that will be capable to deal with the immediate information (instrument panels) and far less capable to deal with the external information (contacts, landscape details to navigate).
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 No, no contradictions, not sure why you think so, never did I say the DK1 (intended purely for development instead of mainstream use) was up to the task, I am saying the current DK1 demonstrates very well that it will only require a moderate increase in resolution to become quite useable even for flight sims.
FuriousMeow Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 VR is not a niche product. Yes, it is. It'll sell to arcade hardware stores, it'll sell to extreme (hardcore, whatever) gamers, but look at this genre. We are a small percentage, and those who wish for clickpits are even smaller, but War Thunder is actually doing very well - because it requires zero knowledge, zero effort, just a mouse - no joystick - and how many TiRs were sold due to WT? It makes looking around far more effortless. VR is a niche product, especially when it will be in the hundreds of dollars. How many purchase top of the line video cards? Niche. How many purchase joysticks? Niche. The top professional gamers use basic two button mice with a scroll wheel. The common theme in RoF is that the "best pilots" don't have TiR. It is a niche.
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