FuriousMeow Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 No, no contradictions, not sure why you think so, never did I say the DK1 (intended purely for development instead of mainstream use) was up to the task, I am saying the current DK1 demonstrates very well that it will only require a moderate increase in resolution to become quite useable even for flight sims. Cool, except I was talking about DK2. It is like going from 320x200 to 640x480. How many people will pay for the cost of a mid-range computer to get VR? That is the biggest question, not the investment of people with billions of dollars. No it isn't Hell yes it is. It doesn't matter what you say, it is niche.
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Cool, except I was talking about DK2. It is like going from 320x200 to 640x480. How many people will pay for the cost of a mid-range computer to get VR? That is the biggest question, not the investment of people with billions of dollars. No, it's like going from 1280×800 to 1920×1080.....you make some weird things up. $300 for a mid range computer? I want to find that computer store.
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Hell yes it is. It doesn't matter what you say, it is niche. What you say matters even less, it's a $2Bn niche that seems to have the rest of the gaming industry paying attention.
FuriousMeow Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 No, it's like going from 1280×800 to 1920×1080.....you make some weird things up. $300 for a mid range computer? I want to find that computer store. That's funny, DK2's release says what resolution? 1080x960. So, its a crap resolution to a crap resolution - that was the point of the comparison. I made nothing up. $300 USD will get you a mid-range computer. What you say matters even less, it's a $2Bn niche that seems to have the rest of the gaming industry paying attention. Its pretty interesting when you go back and see that the resolution doesn't support open worlds. And won't with DK2. It looks like shit unless it is CQB.
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 That's funny, DK2's release says what resolution? 1080x960. So, its a crap resolution to a crap resolution - that was the point of the comparison. I made nothing up. $300 USD will get you a mid-range computer. No, it goes from an impractical resolution to HD, already reported that the screen door effect is eliminated in DK2 but it does seem like a very 2D mentality that is screaming 4K or no deal. $300 wont buy a mid range computer from where I am from. Its pretty interesting when you go back and see that the resolution doesn't support open worlds. And won't with DK2. It looks like shit unless it is CQB. Outerra is actually pretty damn good in the DK1 so I have no idea what you are talking about.........neither do you it seems.
FuriousMeow Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) No, it goes from an impractical resolution to HD, already reported that the screen door effect is eliminated in DK2 but it does seem like a very 2D mentality that is screaming 4K or no deal. $300 wont buy a mid range computer from where I am from. I already posted a screenshot of the comparison, and it doesn't compare to monitor's resolution. I never even said 4K, so go right ahead and continue your nonsensical tirade simply because. $300 (which is actually about $500+ for where you're from) can get you a mid range computer, just don't purchase pre-assembled garbage. Edited May 31, 2014 by FuriousMeow
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) My nonsensical tirade? No $300 is $ 300 where I am from, and if you translate it to my local currency it is about £200 http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=300&From=USD&To=GBP Edited May 31, 2014 by DD_bongodriver
FuriousMeow Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 I messed up on the currency conversion, my bad - that is why I spent way more money in Scotland than I intended to. But it was fun. Unlike this. You have fun, you're right - the OR will bring the second coming of the hey zeus. I'll wait until the resolution is on par with my monitor, 1440p is so far a minotaur. If they can deliver, then we'll see. Until then - the OR still doesn't work for this genre.
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 They can and will deliver, this genre will benefit from VR.
SR-F_Winger Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) Yes, it is. It'll sell to arcade hardware stores, it'll sell to extreme (hardcore, whatever) gamers, but look at this genre. We are a small percentage, and those who wish for clickpits are even smaller, but War Thunder is actually doing very well - because it requires zero knowledge, zero effort, just a mouse - no joystick - and how many TiRs were sold due to WT? It makes looking around far more effortless. VR is a niche product, especially when it will be in the hundreds of dollars. How many purchase top of the line video cards? Niche. How many purchase joysticks? Niche. The top professional gamers use basic two button mice with a scroll wheel. The common theme in RoF is that the "best pilots" don't have TiR. It is a niche. Simmers sooner. But think of my words when time has come... In latest 2-3 years from now EVERY PC gamer and most likely consolejockeys as well will be owining a rift/other VR HMD. I would bet money i am right:) EDIT: Oh and Jason: Good to hear you didnt let down on it completely. Very wise decision! Edited May 31, 2014 by VSG1_Winger
smink1701 Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Guys, First, we are not stepping away from Occulus support. You are taking Loft's statement a little far. We are simply not pursuing it as hard as we were because every time we get close to proper implementation something changes. Hardware, requirements, Facebook etc. and right now we need to be focused on completing our project with as few distractions as possible. We have an open line of communication with Oculus and I have shown them BOS in their office several times now and gotten their feedback. We are simply waiting for the new Dev Kit hardware to hit. I have two on order. We have asked OR for DK2 hardware to be given to us asap. Whether we get them or not is up to OR. There is more I could say, but can't due to NDA. But I will say that in my discussions with the OR folks, the reality of sim development and perceived OR ready game-play are not always a complete match. We've made a big effort to support OR so far. However, until the hardware is up the job and the requirements are easily understood we are not going to release support for it publicly. There is a lot of hype surrounding OR and it is a going to be a good product and probably a successful one assuming devs support it. But supporting it, at least in this early stages is pretty complex work and we need to keep our eye on the prize. I think the fact that you see OR jumping into the game publishing and development biz shows that the whole accessory/developer process is an inexact science. I dealt with this when I was at Naturalpoint and I see OR going through some of the same issues, albeit with a lot more mojo on their side. Jason Thanks Jason as always for the fast and accurate / no BS communication. Having dealt with another game dev that blew smoke up my a-s for years and then delivered a stillborn baby I think communication is one of the best parts of my BOS experience. On the DCS WWII forum those guys go for weeks without posting a word. I'm glad I didn't buy into that train wreck but glad to be here!
Bassly Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 In latest 2-3 years from now EVERY PC gamer and most likely consolejockeys as well will be owining a rift/other VR HMD. I would bet money i am right:) Probably 2-3 years sounds bit too fast. Maybe next 5 to 20 years is bit more optimistic, if that will happen at all.
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 They sold 50,000 developer kits in months and couldn't keep the production up to demand, they have sold a similar number of DK2's in a similarly short time, a large proportion of those sales are non-developers, when the CV1 comes out it will sell out and Facebook will be ensuring the market stretches far and wide, 2-3 years is the more realistic figure, 20 years is just bizarre.
Bassly Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 To me 50000 sounds kinda small amount considering how many total video game players are in the world.
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 like I said, they couldn't keep up the production demands, it is a developer kit, they never expected high volume sales.
Bassly Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 So you expect everyone to have a product in 2-3 years that doesn't even exist at the consumer level yet? Take a look on the 120Hz monitors. Those are out there, but still people are happy playing video games on 60Hz monitors.
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 because 60hz is cheaper and good enough but they aren't VR.
Bassly Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) Thats right. Being a VR is probably not the most important argument for a casual gamer, so he will most likely stick with his 60Hz monitor. Atleast as long until OS becomes 3D only and is forced to buy a VR device. VR is a great invention. That's what I think of it too, but it's only figthing against time at the moment. Edited May 31, 2014 by Bassly
Tab Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 I don't see why exactly oculus rift should become the first mainstream VR-device. There were so many VR-devices before, they all had their inherent problems. So does OR. I don't really get the hype. It might work well with some genres, but combat flight sims are definetly not one of them. And there is still no real-time 6 DOF head-tracking.
71st_AH_Hooves Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 For once (and I mean once ) I Agree 100% with Bongo. VR will happen. and Meow I feel you are cramming the word niche down the wrong hole. Sure VR for flight sims might be Niche, but Flight sims themselves are a niche all to themselves. VR how ever will be much larger than Flight sims, but we get to benefit from that. VR isn't something that has to be developed just for us. Its a whole new product unlike anything we've ever seen. I like to compare it to monitors. Flat screens were hugely expensive at first. but once they came down in price and up in size, nearly everyone traded in their 50 lb CRT. and Ive also tried Outerra in the DK1 and it was very impressive. Don't let the first generation product corn hole you into disbelief. This thing will keep getting better and better. The real conversation should be where Facebook funding will inevitably steer development of future CV's I don't see why exactly oculus rift should become the first mainstream VR-device. There were so many VR-devices before, they all had their inherent problems. So does OR. I don't really get the hype. It might work well with some genres, but combat flight sims are definetly not one of them. And there is still no real-time 6 DOF head-tracking. I would say flight simming is where VR is Most at home actually. Also wrong, there is 6DOF tracking in the DK2. YES DEV KIT 2. Its only the second prototype and it already has answered with support. Have you Tried an OR? I would venture to say that if you had, you'd get the hype.
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Thats right. Being a VR is probably not the most important argument for a casual gamer, so he will most likely stick with his 60Hz monitor. Atleast as long until OS becomes 3D only and is forced to buy a VR device. VR is a great invention. That's what I think of it too, but it's only figthing against time at the moment. Smartphones are not the most important argument for casual phone users, but now they are everywhere, most people have a camera in their phone better than a dedicated digital camera and never use it, VR is a great invention that is changing the way developers think, VR is not fighting any more, it is coming. I don't see why exactly oculus rift should become the first mainstream VR-device. There were so many VR-devices before, they all had their inherent problems. So does OR. I don't really get the hype. It might work well with some genres, but combat flight sims are definetly not one of them. And there is still no real-time 6 DOF head-tracking. 6DOF tracking is coming with DK2, you may not get the hype but I'm guessing you haven't actually tried a rift yet. Bongo is a god and I worship him.
Bassly Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Smartphones are not the most important argument for casual phone users, but now they are everywhere, most people have a camera in their phone better than a dedicated digital camera and never use it, VR is a great invention that is changing the way developers think, VR is not fighting any more, it is coming. Still most of the casual video gamers are using their simple 60Hz monitor instead of a smartphone display. Why? Smartphones... wtf.
falstaff Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 SYN_Hooves...I agree with both your points There doesn't seem to be the impetus of any device that there is with OR. The timing seems right (though of course it could still fail for all sorts of reasons). And it is hard mentally to align John Carmack with a purely 'niche' product. Most things he has been involved with have not stayed niche for long. I hope they stick with proper fidelity in OR support. The SP news is already dispiriting to me.
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Still most of the casual video gamers are using their simple 60Hz monitor instead of a smartphone display. Why? Smartphones... wtf. yes, for the same reason you wouldn't use a glass hammer. wtf indeed
Bassly Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 yes, for the same reason you wouldn't use a glass hammer. wtf indeed Does this mean I have a point here or wtf?
Tab Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 How is 6 DOF supposed to work with a single camera? When writing 6 dof I really meant 6 dof, not 4.5 dof and only when looking towards a camera. How are you going to check your six in it...
Bassly Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) wtf Allright 0-0 on the half time, now back to the studio. Edited May 31, 2014 by Bassly
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 How is 6 DOF supposed to work with a single camera? When writing 6 dof I really meant 6 dof, not 4.5 dof and only when looking towards a camera. How are you going to check your six in it... does your head literally turn 180 degrees on your neck? do you literally swivel your seat 180 degrees to check six? though not, the DK2 has IR emitters on the side of the unit that stay in the visual field of the camera when you turn your head like a normal person might to check six from a seated position, job done 6DOF in a seated position. Allright 1-0 on the half time to bongo, now back to the studio. fixed.
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 it was, you seemed to think it was a draw.....weird, you should have a negative score for comparing monitors with smartphones for gaming use.
Bassly Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 it was, you seemed to think it was a draw.....weird, you should have a negative score for comparing monitors with smartphones for gaming use. Is it me or you who wants to call a mod to clean this up?
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Clean it? have I used a secret bad word or something?
Zak Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 More info on BOS support for OR will be posted in a couple of months (right before release) 1
71st_AH_Cujo Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Do you guys think that OR support can significantly improve BOS sales? What about people who already bought the game based on the previous info that said oculus rift will be supported. I guess that does not mean anything because you already have our money. That's below the belt man
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 it is a bit odd how OR support is being restricted until later, most other game developers are happy to implement it during development, everyone who actually possesses a rift will be more than familiar with the concept it is not a final product and won't reflect badly.
Jason_Williams Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 it is a bit odd how OR support is being restricted until later, most other game developers are happy to implement it during development, everyone who actually possesses a rift will be more than familiar with the concept it is not a final product and won't reflect badly. What part of we don't have the latest hardware that we need for implementation and testing don't you understand Bongo? We are not going to release our support for it until their product is final and our product is final. We've already built support for the current devices and we find the experience cool, but somewhat incomplete and therefore reflects badly on our own incomplete product. Jason 1
Jason_Williams Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 What about people who already bought the game based on the previous info that said oculus rift will be supported. I guess that does not mean anything because you already have our money. That's below the belt man Don't insult us. We promised support at some point. That means when we feel it is time for our product to do so. Our focus is on completing our title. We never promised support during early access and it's not our fault OR have been moving the goal posts making support a longer process. And I ask for all the OR fans here to read my posts above again. I explain or current relationship with OR and the situation plus I have clarified Loft's words and Zak has posted we will address this issue more near release. Jason
DD_bongodriver Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 What part of we don't have the latest hardware that we need for implementation and testing don't you understand Bongo? Jason it's not a case of not understanding Jason, nobody has the DK2 yet, nobody else seems to be struggling with Oculus goal posts, I am currently enjoying the DK1 experience in several titles which are still under development, presumably all of which are working with the same tools and communication from oculus, the current state of oculus devices is a known quantity and only oculus owners will experience it and you can rest assured the reflection will be on the device and not the software.
Jason_Williams Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Who says we are struggling Bongo???? As I have said, we already implemented DK1 and the HD unit. But the experience is INCOMPLETE based on the limits of their technology, not ours. The DK1 experience, coupled with the current state of BOS is an INCOMPLETE experience and will only generate constant droning from certain folks on this forum, so we are holding off releasing it to the public until we are satisfied with the experience. That's our choice and HAS NOTHING to do with the competency of the BOS team. Jason
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