On the Fiat G.50 fuel cock

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Our Italian friends might show some interest in the following question:

 

Our fellow pilot Sokol1 stated on another discussion thread, that the fuel cock in the Fiat G.50 is not working in this simulator. I entered into one G.50 and pressed my "fuel cock" mapped key in my keyboard... and I noticed Sokol1 is right. Exploring the cockpit I saw, on the right hand side inside the cockpit, the following button, named in Italian "cicchetto benzina":

 

 

 

In the enclosed rectangle (upper right corner of the image) you can see a zoom of this "cicchetto benzina" button and, left of it, how the fuel reserve is full at 220 litres.

 

So, chaps, do you have any documentation on the fuel cocks inside those G.50s that flew during the Battle of Britain? If the "cicchetto benzina" button simply is the fuel cock in the plane, and if the historical start-up procedure of all G.50 was similar to the planes in the simulator, well, we could ask the devs to model the animation of the button, and the proper effect when starting-up the engine. And... if this is done, even the flashcard could be uptdated...

 

 

[Sokol1]

This  indicated knob looks more a pump... maybe for initial fuel injection, like "Kigass" pump in Spitfire, Hurricane.

 

In the manual "Aeroplano Fiat G.50 (Motore F.I.A.T. A 74 R.C. 38)" -  not an pilot manual, but an assembly, maintenance manual

in the fuel system drawings are this labels, but is not clear were they are in cockpit.

 

Pompa cicchetto  ~ primer pump

Pompa a mano benzina  EC ~ Petrol hand pump EC

 

And this right side console is more bigger and has more knobs (?) than modeled in CloD G.50.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aeroplano FIAT G.50.zip

Edited January 27, 2021 by Sokol1

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Thank you you Sokol, this is a precious document indeed. I'll take the time to have a closer look at it.

[4SCT_Vespa]

Interesting discusion indeed...

The "Cicchetto - Benzina" is the primer knob so it would be great to have it animated and working properly ( when the engine is cold we should push it few times for engine start)

About historical documentation

The "Norme di pilotaggio" G50 manual ( Pilot Handbook ) doesn't say anything about the engine priming.

In the "Catalogo Nomenclatore" (Parts catalogue) there is a scheme with the right small panel, the "Cicchetto" is the number "N", called "Cicchetto E.Caretta"

I should check the engine manual for info about priming..

 

[4SCT_Vespa]

By the way...the cockpit modeled in IL2 is clearly related to the FIAT G50bis

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

1 hour ago, 4SCT_Vespa said:

The "Cicchetto - Benzina" is the primer knob so it would be great to have it animated and working properly ( when the engine is cold we should push it few times for engine start)

 

 

Thank you Vespa. I don't know Italian but I do know a few English. My understanding following your above posted message, is that this button I higlighted on my original post, that "cicchetto benzina", IS NOT the fuel cock. Sokol1 may be right when he says "pump"... because now you are saying "primer" (for fuel, so I guess you use the word "primer" as some kind of synonym of "pump"). Is it possible that no fuel cock was present in the plane, and only the pump acted simulataneously as the fuel cock? was there some kind of mechanism allowing the pilot to use the pump to start the engine, and after that, when landed on the ground, use the pump again to close the fuel supply, same as if it was a fuel cock??

 

 

1 hour ago, 4SCT_Vespa said:

The "Norme di pilotaggio" G50 manual ( Pilot Handbook ) doesn't say anything about the engine priming.

 

 

Shame. Anyway, my point is the following: I was looking for the fuel cock on board the G.50 because I'm used to use it on board the other planes in the game. This is to be confirmed, but if historically there was no fuel cock in a G.50, then there's no need to go to the devs asking them they spend their preciopus time modelling a fuel pump. The plane is fully flyable in the game: I can start up the engine, fly, land, and stop the engine (turning off the magnetos stops the engine). And this is sufficient enough to me.

 

 

17 minutes ago, 4SCT_Vespa said:

By the way...the cockpit modeled in IL2 is clearly related to the FIAT G50bis

 

 

Well, maybe because Maddox Games, back in the 2000s, some fifteen/twenty years ago, based his 3D modeling on the only existing "Freccia", the one at the Belgrade Aviation Museum:

 

https://en.difesaonline.it/evidenza/lettere-al-direttore/un-tesoro-nascosto-al-museo-dellaviazione-di-belgrado

 

 

[4SCT_CR42Falco]

The "cicchetto" is the pump that you actuate to flood the carburettor when first cold starting the engine, it is not the manual gas pump but indeed it pumps a certain amount of fuel in the carburettor and, i believe, in the intake manifold.

What I see is that in the quick reference manual it is said to open the fuel cock and allow wep before starting. In the engine info window though no message shows up when I hit the button associated to fuel cock, so I never know if I have opened or closed it, or if it works at all. WEP condition is signalled correctly instead.

BTW if I understand correctly the "real" fuel cock should be the button next to the "cicchetto" and it should have more the form of a multi-way cock as in the picture posted by Vespa

Edited January 27, 2021 by 4SCT_CR42Falco

[343KKT_Kintaro]

5 hours ago, 4SCT_CR42Falco said:

What I see is that in the quick reference manual it is said to open the fuel cock and allow wep before starting.

 

 

Do you mean the PDF document provided by Sokol1? What page, please?

 

 

5 hours ago, 4SCT_CR42Falco said:

In the engine info window though no message shows up when I hit the button associated to fuel cock, so I never know if I have opened or closed it, or if it works at all.

 

 

In the sim... this is not working. Whatever you do with the key that you mapped for the fuel cock in your "Controls Options", the engine will start up if you simply follow the flashcard instructions. But, as I said, I'm happy with the procedures as they are modelled in the sim because they work fine enough to me. And also, I still don't know with absolute certainty if whether or not THERE WAS A FUEL COCK IN those G.50s in the early 1940s.

 

 

5 hours ago, 4SCT_CR42Falco said:

WEP condition is signalled correctly instead.

 

 

Correct.

 

 

5 hours ago, 4SCT_CR42Falco said:

BTW if I understand correctly the "real" fuel cock should be the button next to the "cicchetto" and it should have more the form of a multi-way cock as in the picture posted by Vespa

 

 

Maybe... but I didn't find out any fuel cock in the provided PDF. My suspicion goes to page 56 ("una leva per il comando rubinetto a tre vie"), a mention which, I assume, is referring to technical drawing ('schema') number 7 on page 157, but the letters are scanned too small there, and I can't read them...

 

 

[Sokol1]

On 1/27/2021 at 3:26 PM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Do you mean the PDF document provided by Sokol1? What page, please?

 

He mean the game Flashcard (quick reference manual), that advise players open fuel cock - that is not modeled.

 

For G.50 this command don't matter, just open throttle ~10% (one the few planes that really need this 10%) and hit the "magical I".

 

 

[343KKT_Kintaro]

7 minutes ago, Sokol1 said:

He mean the game Flashcard (quick reference manual), that advise players open fuel cock - that is not modeled.

 

 

Wrong, the flaschcard doesn't mention any fuel cock.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Sokol1 said:

and hit the "magical I"

 

 

That letter "I" stands for "ignition"... in my case I replaced the magical "I" with the magical "E"... which stands for "engine".

 

Oh, by the way, refueling, in an online server, requires to close the fuel cock and turn off the magnetos... So, I tried with one G.50 in the TWC campaign - England1941 server... simply turning off the magnetos... and this worked marvelously: I got my new ammos and all the fuel I wanted.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by 343KKT_Kintaro

[Sokol1]

Quote

 ...in an online server,

 

This is an MP script thing, don't change the fact that in normal game magnetos are just... a 'cosmetic, what if" thing. ?

[343KKT_Kintaro]

Just now, Sokol1 said:

This is an MP script thing, don't change the fact that in normal game magnetos are just... a 'cosmetic, what if" thing. ?

 

 

It's not a cosmetic thing, it's a server rule: if you want to refuel or rearm, then turn the magnetos off and close the fuel cock.

[4SCT_CR42Falco]

15 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Wrong, the flaschcard doesn't mention any fuel cock.

Indeed my bad, I re-read it. I think I got confused with the "boost cut-out" back then when I tried to awake that Fiat thing for the first time and I compared to the CR42 procedure: I remember having tried out hard to figure what was meant by it and I concluded either fuel cock (if off it cuts out any boost) or, by exclusion, the WEP albeit I wonder how cutting out boost should improve engine performance, if I understand well that cutting out means to exclude...

14 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

It's not a cosmetic thing, it's a server rule: if you want to refuel or rearm, then turn the magnetos off and close the fuel cock.

Does it mean you cannot rearm with the G50 (not that I often have the option to, as I usally die in it)? ? 

Edited January 29, 2021 by 4SCT_CR42Falco

[343KKT_Kintaro]

2 hours ago, 4SCT_CR42Falco said:

Indeed my bad, I re-read it. I think I got confused with the "boost cut-out" back then when I tried to awake that Fiat thing for the first time and I compared to the CR42 procedure: I remember having tried out hard to figure what was meant by it and I concluded either fuel cock (if off it cuts out any boost) or, by exclusion, the WEP albeit I wonder how cutting out boost should improve engine performance, if I understand well that cutting out means to exclude...

 

 

In my opinion, in the term "Boost Cut-Out", the word "cut-out" refers... not necessarily to a switch button, but to the capacity of toggling something from one position to another (open/closed). After a quick and, I must admit, maybe insufficient research, I think that this "boost cut-out" technology is nothing but an impeller located inside the air intake and acting like a supercharger. Thus, when a pilot uses the tit (British pilots' slang for the "boost cut-out" device in 1940) he doesn't "cut" anything, he turns on a mecanism that makes the engine produces more power for at least 5 minutes.

 

 

2 hours ago, 4SCT_CR42Falco said:

Does it mean you cannot rearm with the G50 (not that I often have the option to, as I usally die in it)? ? 

 

 

If the server allows it, you can rearm and refuel on board one Fiat G.50, same as on board any other aircraft in the game.