P-47 carrers

[310th_Diablo]

Any advise on how to survive a fight in the jug in the careers mode.  Im an experienced jug pilot but for the life of me i cant survive in a p-47 against the g-14 or fw a8.  Every mission runs at 3000ft.  Ive tried staying with the flight and even gotten a little altitude above it.  I know the jug is not designed to fight that low, then why is every mission at or below. 

[cardboard_killer]

From my understanding of the air forces at that point of the war, those squadrons in the Tactical Air Forces generally fought at low altitudes. The reality, however, being that there was very little to fight against, and what was left was usually very poorly trained. Most of the remaining Luftwaffe fought the strategic bombing forces. Casualties were high, though, due to massive amounts of AA.

 

BoBp is a game first and foremost. So resistance from the Luftwaffe is greater than it was historically. Fighter escorts are rarer than they would be if resistance were expected.

 

All that being said, I don't know what to advise you as I am in the same position. Indeed, I don't do well with any of the US planes. I prefer the Brits and/or Soviet planes. But I'm not very good, so I'm sure it can be done.

Edited January 13, 2021 by cardboard_killer

[=621=Samikatz]

Against the AI you have a few options, I find they're not great at following rapid direction changes. Aggressive flat or rolling scissors is a good way to force them off your tail, though the P-47 doesn't have much excess energy to strike back with. You can also try to use your wingmates as bait.

[twilson37]

I feel your pain, the P-47 is a great ground attack aircraft and good at high altitudes but it is no match for a 109 or 190 on the deck you can try to drop the flaps to improve low speed turning or pour on the coals and run for home, I generally do the latter, let my AI squad mates fight it out. 

 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

4 hours ago, cardboard_killer said:

BoBp is a game first and foremost. So resistance from the Luftwaffe is greater than it was historically. Fighter escorts are rarer than they would be if resistance were expected.

 

 

 

BoBp careers leave much to be desired and theres place for massive improvement. Each and every update Im hoping for it...

 

In my Spit IX career there are huge amount of 190A8s every single time. I chose the dense setting for this career but I'd still expect our side to have the number's advantage which is not the case 75% of the time. 

 

Another thing that bothers me is that in most BoBp careers, there is only one type of plane on your side in each mission. If you fly Spitfire, there will only be Spitfires. Your squadron of course, but if there's another one it'll be spitfires too.

 

They need to add more depth to these campaigns, more variety. Compare it to the Kuban careers, where so much can happen, its never the same or almost. And in Kuban, the germans are most of the time in inferior numbers (I'm always facing impossible or almost odds in my 190A5 career). So why are the Germans so numerous in BoBp? Feels like they produce 100x 190s a day and clone veteran pilot.

 

I've been very vocal about it, please devs, time to put some serious work on improving BoBp careers.

[cardboard_killer]

12 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

I've been very vocal about it, please devs, time to put some serious work on improving BoBp careers.

 

I think Pat Wilson's CG generator addresses most of these problems, but I agree with others that it should be in game, not an add on . . .

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

7 hours ago, cardboard_killer said:

 

I think Pat Wilson's CG generator addresses most of these problems, but I agree with others that it should be in game, not an add on . . .

 

Exactly, that has always been my point, I should'nt have to mod a game so it will do the basic things it should do since its launch. 

 

Imagine having to mod Doom eternal because the end boss doesnt spawn and the devs didnt fix it after 11 updates. Makes absolutely no sense.

Edited January 13, 2021 by I./JG52_Woutwocampe

[Rei-sen]

Apart from obvious issues with dullness of career mode, the main problem is that the boxed P-47 has little to do with the real real P-47. Some say that Luftwaffe was outnumbered during that time period. Okay, but what about Hub Zemke's reids in 1943? If real P-47 was like the boxed version no one would've returned from those missions.

 

Set up a QMB duel against the P-47 and choose Ju-88. You'll be surprised how helpless the P-47 is in this game

 

I suggest trying P-47 in other sims. For example I have no issues fighting 109s and 190s in P-47 in 1946 or DCS.

[cardboard_killer]

2 minutes ago, Arthur-A said:

Okay, but what about Hub Zemke's reids in 1943?

 

I don't know of the exact missions you are referring to here (I haven't read Zemke's autobiography since high school), but 1943 missions were usually medium to high altitude against Bf-109F4/G6s and Fw-190a3/4s. In BoBp you're up against G14/K4s and A8/D9s.

 

But I understand, the P-47 seems to be missing something in BoX. I'm not sure what as I'm not an engineer. Frankly, from what I've read there wasn't much of a difference in lethality between the P-51 and P-47, but the P-51 fans would go ballistic if that became the case.

[YouBet]

For the P-47

 

If you can, select the higher octane -- it helps a lot.

 

I'm no expert, but what helps me fight the Jug...

 

Once the furball ensues, if you're not being actively pursued, you can climb outside the action and pick a target well below you -- Jug can be quite devastating with an energy advantage. You're not helping your wingman much, but, hey: It's a game.

 

If you are pursued by one or two AI, you can lower the flaps 10-15 degrees (seen on the wing's indicator). Then you can keep turning into your opponent to defeat their shots -- often you can gain an advantage inside one of their turns using a hi/lo yoyo.

 

If you're hopelessly outnumbered or your situational awareness is poor, run.

 

 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

I remember reading about an american P-47 ace who fought German planes in 44-45, was it Gabresky? Not sure.

 

What I clearly remember is that he mentionned to avoid engaging german fighters under 6000km unless there's absolutely no other choice or with a significant alt/number advantage.

 

Point is, the P-47 is pretty good at diving. Way better diver than dogfighter. Remember that when you spot a decent number of german fighters under 6km.

[Rei-sen]

48 minutes ago, cardboard_killer said:

1943 missions were usually medium to high altitude against Bf-109F4/G6s and Fw-190a3/4s. In BoBp you're up against G14/K4s and A8/D9s.

And they flew the 1943 versions of P-47, C5 I believe, so that should be equal match. 

[twilson37]

The BoBp campaign is definitely problematic as it is too repetitive and flying the P-47 is perhaps the worst of this.

 

     The problem is most people who choose  aground attack or bombing campaign do not want a campaign where the encounter enemy aircraft on the majority of missions, there is plenty of challenges dodging flak and avoiding crashing into a tree. Flying a fighter campaign however can be fairly boring if you are flying river crossing covers 10 missions in a row without seeing a single enemy.

 

To that end my recommendation would be to let the user select the likelihood of being intercepted. Furthermore, the number and altitude of enemy aircraft should also be more variable, where you could be intercepted by a rotte, schwarm of entire staffel, and the enemy may choose a prolonged engagement, hit and run, or to avoid the fight based on the standard tactics of the enemy during that campaign time frame.

 

But this is just my $.02 and maps and planes sell more games that a complex campaign system does.

 

 

 

 

 

[cardboard_killer]

30 minutes ago, Arthur-A said:

And they flew the 1943 versions of P-47, C5 I believe, so that should be equal match. 

 

I didn't think the Cs were that much different from the early Ds. Nothing like the difference between the Bs and the Cs. But maybe I'm confusing the P-51 versions?

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

For those who have BoBp careers going on right now.

 

How many fights happen 5km or above? 

 

I have a Spit career and a Me262 career going. Of course for the 262 its a fighter bomber career so we stay low but in my Spit career we always fly superiority/cover missions at around 2km. I would expect some high alt fights from time to time. 

 

I completed a Dora career when BoBp was released a while ago and it was always low alt too around 2km....against

Tempest...yikes.

 

Is that realistic? 

[ShamrockOneFive]

4 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

For those who have BoBp careers going on right now.

 

How many fights happen 5km or above? 

 

I have a Spit career and a Me262 career going. Of course for the 262 its a fighter bomber career so we stay low but in my Spit career we always fly superiority/cover missions at around 2km. I would expect some high alt fights from time to time. 

 

I completed a Dora career when BoBp was released a while ago and it was always low alt too around 2km....against

Tempest...yikes.

 

Is that realistic? 

 

For a lot of the 2nd TAF operations, yeah. 10,000 feet and below. Often the cloud deck would be low so they would fly lower as you're not going to spot truck traffic and low flying enemy fighters if you are also not in the weeds with them.

[LuftManu]

Fighting with the Jug at low alt is like trying to outturn the Spitfire in an 109. It's going to be tricky and it's not meant do to that, but you can try.

I had a great time with the Hellhawks campaign, great stuff for the Jug. With PWCG you can too adjust every setting you want.

 

It's really fun to read how the P-47 should behave like an F-22 or something.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

1 hour ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

For a lot of the 2nd TAF operations, yeah. 10,000 feet and below. Often the cloud deck would be low so they would fly lower as you're not going to spot truck traffic and low flying enemy fighters if you are also not in the weeds with them.

 

Makes perfect sense. Thanks. I wish they would still find a way to update BoBp so sometimes high alt fights would happen for a change. Right now its sooo redundant. 

1 hour ago, LF_Gallahad said:

Fighting with the Jug at low alt is like trying to outturn the Spitfire in an 109. It's going to be tricky and it's not meant do to that, but you can try.

 

More like outrunning a 109 in a I-16

[310th_Diablo]

1 hour ago, LF_Gallahad said:

Fighting with the Jug at low alt is like trying to outturn the Spitfire in an 109. It's going to be tricky and it's not meant do to that, but you can try.

I had a great time with the Hellhawks campaign, great stuff for the Jug. With PWCG you can too adjust every setting you want.

 

It's really fun to read how the P-47 should behave like an F-22 or something.

i dont expect that.  I just want to be able to keep the jug over 200 mph without running for my life.  Just give me a few thousand ft to boom and zoom or fly a vertical scissors.  

[LuftManu]

Just now, 310th_Diablo said:

i dont expect that.  I just want to be able to keep the jug over 200 mph without running for my life.  Just give me a few thousand ft to boom and zoom or fly a vertical scissors.  

When I am carrying bombs it's really problematic. You have to keep formation and sometimes you are the one bounced. 

Yesterday I had a great fun in the D22. We were doing a CAP over German lines. A formation of 109s appeared 3.000 ft below us. Oh boy.

 

Are you flying ground attack missions? What are your rad settings and MP? Many people use them all full and they slow down a lot your aircraft!

[ShamrockOneFive]

If the Career missions are less than satisfying, Gambit's Hell Hawks Over the Bulge campaign is really exceptional with voice overs and detailed missions. It doesn't have much in the way of high altitude fighting but the occurrence of German fighters is about right for what the 9th Air Force would have faced.

 

https://il2sturmovik.com/store/campaigns/

[cardboard_killer]

44 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Gambit's Hell Hawks Over the Bulge campaign

 

I just figured out that I did not have that campaign. LOL. It's the one thing I haven't bought, and one of the few things I haven't bought twice as gifts.

[310th_Diablo]

21 hours ago, LF_Gallahad said:

When I am carrying bombs it's really problematic. You have to keep formation and sometimes you are the one bounced. 

Yesterday I had a great fun in the D22. We were doing a CAP over German lines. A formation of 109s appeared 3.000 ft below us. Oh boy.

 

Are you flying ground attack missions? What are your rad settings and MP? Many people use them all full and they slow down a lot your aircraft!

it’s usually a ground attack mission but my setup is for air cover.  I will usually fly a high cover for the group instead of carrying bombs.  Ive been just using normal settings instead offull real to help with learning to spot better. Very few settings are available under those settings.  I may need to go full real. 

[PatrickAWlson]

On 1/13/2021 at 1:39 PM, cardboard_killer said:

 

I didn't think the Cs were that much different from the early Ds. Nothing like the difference between the Bs and the Cs. But maybe I'm confusing the P-51 versions?

 

P51 B and C were pretty much identical.  Just different factory.

 

[Voyager]

On 1/13/2021 at 12:39 PM, cardboard_killer said:

 

I didn't think the Cs were that much different from the early Ds. Nothing like the difference between the Bs and the Cs. But maybe I'm confusing the P-51 versions?

As near as I can tell it was very incremental development, though as I understand it, the D-5 was the first one with provision for water injection. 

 

RS Johnson's top scoring P-47 was a D-5, if I recall correctly, and I'm given to understand at the D-5 level, there were enough different retro fit kits available that you could bring it up to just about the D-22 standard. 

 

The D-25, however, introduced a ton of changes, including the bubble canopy, and significantly enlarged fuel, oil, and water injection tanks. 

 

Addendum: I'd really enjoy seeing a D-5 in the sim, especially if they are able to do the full range of mods that those versions had available to them. You could pretty much start the war in it, and still be flying it over a year late, what with all the mods. I'm hoping we see it in the game one day. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Voyager

[Irishratticus72]

5 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

P51 B and C were pretty much identical.  Just different factory.

 

Inglewood CA, and Dallas TX respectively, I think?

[sevenless]

On 1/13/2021 at 12:34 AM, 310th_Diablo said:

Any advise on how to survive a fight in the jug in the careers mode.  Im an experienced jug pilot but for the life of me i cant survive in a p-47 against the g-14 or fw a8.  Every mission runs at 3000ft.  Ive tried staying with the flight and even gotten a little altitude above it.  I know the jug is not designed to fight that low, then why is every mission at or below. 

 

If you are flying groundattack mission dive to 150metres and hope to better not to be seen. Ingress and egress on your target as low as possible and you will survive. If Jerry sees you and attacks you below 5000metres someone most likely will have to write a letter home to your relatives.

[Irishratticus72]

1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

If you are flying groundattack mission dive to 150metres and hope to better not to be seen. Ingress and egress on your target as low as possible and you will survive. If Jerry sees you and attacks you below 5000metres someone most likely will have to write a letter home to your relatives.

Yeah, that Lewis was always a dangerous bastard.