Things to watch for Axis fliers

[FlatSpinMan]

Achtung axis flieger!

We have excellent firepower, superior speed, good armour, and absolute killer paint schemes.

 

What will we need to watch out for (apart from arrogance, hubris and scratches to our paintwork) once we get into the skies above Stalingrad?

 

What'll be our most dangerous foe? Any tricks to watch out for?

[JG13_opcode]

Kind of premature to be having this discussion, don't you think?

 

Any discussion of in-game tactics won't be valid until we get to see the flight model. As Crumpp is fond of saying: It's the engineering that determines the tactics, not the other way around.

 

Which VVS aircraft are threats and which are MG151 fodder depends entirely on how the aircraft fly in-engine. It's obvious from previous titles that RL performance is not necessarily indicative of in-engine performance.

Edited June 11, 2013 by JG13Doggles

[DD_fruitbat]

Kind of premature to be having this discussion, don't you think?

 

Any discussion of in-game tactics won't be valid until we get to see the flight model. As Crumpp is fond of saying: It's the engineering that determines the tactics, not the other way around.

 

Which VVS aircraft are threats and which are MG151 fodder depends entirely on how the aircraft fly in-engine. It's obvious from previous titles that RL performance is not necessarily indicative of in-engine performance.

 

Agree 100%

 

I would love for the Devs to indicate what data they use for the fm's, as that alone would stop a lot of speculation and flame wars. Not of course the 'you used the wrong data' whines, however i don't expect they will, largely due to this reason.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Though the FM's might not be gnats ass perfect I gotta think they are pretty darn close.  Saying that I would revert to alot of the tactics that we subcribed to in CloD.  109's B&Z and the Russians scrapping it out Down low.  Although Im not 100% on the capabilities of the Ruskie fighters.  Which are their turners and which are their energy fighters?

[FlatSpinMan]

Lighten up guys. Yeah we don't have the game yet but surely the broad characteristics of the main players are known? I doubt we'll be given vastly unrealistic FMs and DMs to play with.

 

 

This is intended to draw out info such as Hooves alluded to - which are their turners?

At what altitudes does performance advantage change, if any?

 

Those of you who know about Russian planes, tell us their secrets so we can shoot 'em down more easily!

[JG13_opcode]

Lighten up guys. Yeah we don't have the game yet but surely the broad characteristics of the main players are known? I doubt we'll be given vastly unrealistic FMs and DMs to play with.

I get that you're trying to hype people up, and I'm in favour of that, but really: it's nonsensical to talk about tactics when we haven't seen the flight models yet.

 

This is intended to draw out info such as Hooves alluded to - which are their turners?

Here's my thing: "Energy Fighter" and "Angles Fighter" are relative terms. You can't say that the 109 is an energy fighter, because against a P-51D you need to go for angles. The Yak-9 is probably the Energy Fighter against the 109F, but against the early Gustavs the performance differences at combat speeds are probably within 10%, excluding Vne. Against the later 109G it's likely the Angles Fighter.

 

That 10% is the whole point. It's within the margin of error, and atmospheric modeling will have effects too. No one is qualified to make predictions about how they'll fly because we just don't know.

 

At what altitudes does performance advantage change, if any?

I mean, you could look up the various full-throttle heights on Wikipedia but there's really nothing else to be said.

 

Some of this was covered in the context of il21946 in a previous thread.

 

Though the FM's might not be gnats ass perfect I gotta think they are pretty darn close.

Have you seen any data? I haven't

 

Which are their turners and which are their energy fighters?

Depends on the opponent, and depends on the flight models which to the best of my knowledge have not been released. See my above comment about Yak-9 vs 109G. It's like an election: too close to call. Edited June 12, 2013 by JG13Doggles

[71st_AH_Hooves]

I dont get your pessimism Doggles.  I have faith that the team knows what they are doing in the FM dept at 1c/777.  and as far as I can tell they have said they are going to, to the best of their knowledge, model each plane to as close as reality as possible. 

 

  I havent seen the data,  I dont need to, the Dev's need to and Im pretty sure they have alot of experience (including Actual pilots that have flown the Actual aircraft) to help them along the way. 

 

  So with that logic being used, I would start to dig up historical tactics and I figure I can safely assume I can use the actual aerobatic tactics of each given plane,  with a high confidence that they are historically accurate.

[JG13_opcode]

I dont get your pessimism Doggles.

It's not pessimism. Pessimism would be if I was constantly saying that they were going to screw it up. The governing laws of aerodynamics are very complex. They have to make simplifications to the real physics so that it'll run at 60+ fps on our puny quad-core chips, and those simplifications mean that the model ALWAYS differs by some amount from reality.

 

Maybe it's just that tone doesn't fly very well via text, but I get the feeling that you guys think I'm here raging behind my keyboard. I'm not.

 

I have faith that the team knows what they are doing in the FM dept at 1c/777.

I never said they don't know what they're doing? In fact, because I believe that they DO know what they're doing, I therefore also know that the flight models will not correspond 100% to reality.

 

and as far as I can tell they have said they are going to, to the best of their knowledge, model each plane to as close as reality as possible.

Right. As close AS POSSIBLE.

 

So with that logic being used, I would start to dig up historical tactics and I figure I can safely assume I can use the actual aerobatic tactics of each given plane,  with a high confidence that they are historically accurate.

You might be able to, but then again you might not. Very small oddities can result in very significant aircraft performance.

 

Let's say the Yak-9 comes out just a few % on the optimistic side when it comes to high-alpha performance. Let's say the 109G-2 comes out a few % on the pessimistic side. Now all of a sudden you've got a Yak-9 that can hang with the 109G-2 in vertical maneuvers much better than it could in reality, and all of a sudden the tactical landscape is totally different.

 

No more baiting the Commies into following you up and then hammerheading down onto them. Not if they're anywhere close to Co-E.

 

And given what we know about the high-speed elevator response of the 109... see where I'm going with this?

Edited June 12, 2013 by JG13Doggles

[71st_AH_Hooves]

At this point I just have to have faith they can accurately reproduce the FM's to a high degree of accuracy, any thing else is just conjecture. 

[JG13_opcode]

At this point I just have to have faith they can accurately reproduce the FM's to a high degree of accuracy, any thing else is just conjecture.

Exactly. Talking in-game tactics at this point is just conjecture.

Edited June 12, 2013 by JG13Doggles

[Juri_JS]

To answer FlatSpinMan's question - the only Soviet planes I would really worry about when flying my Bf-109G2 over Stalingrad are the LA-5 and the Yak-9.
The Yak-9 had a much better turn radius than the Bf-109G2. The difference in speed at low altitudes of all three planes was small but the Bf-109G2 was faster at higher altitudes.
Both Soviet planes had just entered frontline service and were only used in limited numbers at Stalingrad, so I am not sure if we will have them both in the game when BoS gets released. Maybe we just get the LA-5 and not the Yak-9?

 

We don't know the BoS FM yet, but if it's close to reality I would avoid turn fights in the BF-109G and instead use vertical maneuvers. The higher the altitude the better.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Juri_JS

[Furio]

To answer FlatSpinMan's question - the only Soviet planes I would really worry about when flying my Bf-109G2 over Stalingrad are the LA-5 and the Yak-9.

The Yak-9 had a much better turn radius than the Bf-109G2. The difference in speed at low altitudes of all three planes was small but the Bf-109G2 was faster at higher altitudes.

Both Soviet planes had just entered frontline service and were only used in limited numbers at Stalingrad, so I am not sure if we will have them both in the game when BoS gets released. Maybe we just get the LA-5 and not the Yak-9?

 

We don't know the BoS FM yet, but if it's close to reality I would avoid turn fights in the BF-109G and instead use vertical maneuvers. The higher the altitude the better.

 

 

I agree with you, Juri! We can safely discuss of real, historical planes and stop worrying about unknown FM.

 

Talking of reality, we should consider one of the most important factors in Stalingrad: weather. Extreme cold apart, I don???

[71st_AH_Hooves]

I agree with you, Juri! We can safely discuss of real, historical planes and stop worrying about unknown FM.

 

Talking of reality, we should consider one of the most important factors in Stalingrad: weather. Extreme cold apart, I don???

[JG13_opcode]

Isn't it also true that thay just simply did not fly on these days?  So wouldn't modeling that be kind of counter productive?   War Thunder has seemed to think its funny to pit both teams together in a massive rain storm.  One in which the airplanes would not have even taken off let alone dogfight.

Something tells me that if Comrade Stalin orders that you conduct an air strike, you conduct that air strike, irrespective of weather.

 

Especially to defend Stalin's City, as it were.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

LOL   good point, but thankfully we arent under stalin's rule (as much as some would hope).  Gameplay wise I could see a few semi inclement weather days, but they would just diminish the fun so terrible that Im sure people would leave the server (much like they do in War Thunder when a rain map comes up). 

[Juri_JS]

Looking at the mission reports of JG3, there are few days between November 1942 and February 1943 where absolutely no missions were flown, so obviously bad weather wasn't such a big problem. But due to lack of spare parts and the extreme cold maintenance of aircraft was a problem and many missions had to be flown by a smaller number of planes than usual. This means we shouldn't expect many large air battles for the periode shown in BoS.
 

Edited June 14, 2013 by Juri_JS

[I/JG27_Rollo]

Isn't it also true that thay just simply did not fly on these days?  So wouldn't modeling that be kind of counter productive?   War Thunder has seemed to think its funny to pit both teams together in a massive rain storm.  One in which the airplanes would not have even taken off let alone dogfight.

 

To go just a tiny bit off topic: expect no mercy from 777 in that regard. Every time I fly my RoFl campaign, they are sending me and my Albatros out into rain storms as well...

[Furio]

Something tells me that if Comrade Stalin orders that you conduct an air strike, you conduct that air strike, irrespective of weather.

 

Especially to defend Stalin's City, as it were.

 

True.

 

In any case, I wasn???

[Peshka]

Something tells me that if Herr Hitler orders that you conduct an air strike, you conduct that air strike, irrespective of weather.
Especially to attack Stalin's City, as it were.

 

To go just a tiny bit off topic: expect no mercy from 777 in that regard. Every time I fly my RoFl campaign, they are sending me and my Re8 out into rain storms

 

Bos will have good wether and game balance as I can see

[II./JG27_Rich]

Achtung axis flieger!

We have excellent firepower, superior speed, good armour, and absolute killer paint schemes.

 

What will we need to watch out for (apart from arrogance, hubris and scratches to our paintwork) once we get into the skies above Stalingrad?

 

What'll be our most dangerous foe? Any tricks to watch out for?

 

La-5. Actually any Russian aeroplane generally scares me, even I-16s

Edited June 17, 2013 by Richie

[71st_AH_Hooves]

I was watching some of the vids on the 1cgs youtube page and the pilot said the mig3 could out perform the i16! That might surprise a 109 driver for sure. Is that really accurate though. I didn't think the mig3 could out turn the i16 that sounds crazy to me.

[TJT]

I was watching some of the vids on the 1cgs youtube page and the pilot said the mig3 could out perform the i16! That might surprise a 109 driver for sure. Is that really accurate though. I didn't think the mig3 could out turn the i16 that sounds crazy to me.

 

outmanouver =/= outturn. Manouvers have more aspects then simply turning horizontaly. 

[71st_AH_Hooves]

outmanouver =/= outturn. Manouvers have more aspects then simply turning horizontaly. 

I understand that, but he specifically says out turns. Which I thought the i16 had that on the later aircraft.

[nynek]

Achtung axis flieger!

We have excellent firepower, superior speed, good armour, and absolute killer paint schemes.

 

What will we need to watch out for (apart from arrogance, hubris and scratches to our paintwork) once we get into the skies above Stalingrad?

 

What'll be our most dangerous foe? Any tricks to watch out for?

There is only one thing to watch for...waves and waves of enemy planes. Wiki - Red Army Stalingrad order of battle and then go to the Air Army and after that Wiki German order of battle and see what JG3 and transport and bomber units are consist of.

 

i hercules dupa gdy ludzi kupa or

nec Hercules contra plures

[JG13_opcode]

I understand that, but he specifically says out turns. Which I thought the i16 had that on the later aircraft.

Keep in mind that there's a difference between turn radius and turn rate. An aircraft with a turn radius advantage doesn't necessarily have a turn rate advantage.

 

Hypothetically, in one of those oh-so-realistic circle fights you see online, if the MiG can complete a circle faster than the I-16, ,it doesn't matter how tight the I-16 can turn.

Edited June 18, 2013 by JG13Doggles

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Keep in mind that there's a difference between turn radius and turn rate. An aircraft with a turn radius advantage doesn't necessarily have a turn rate advantage.

 

Hypothetically, in one of those oh-so-realistic circle fights you see online, if the MiG can complete a circle faster than the I-16, ,it doesn't matter how tight the I-16 can turn.

agreed,  this is something that surprised me.  i thought the mig was the russian high altitude fighter.  or am i mistaken?   i know very little about russian planes. 

[JG13_opcode]

agreed,  this is something that surprised me.  i thought the mig was the russian high altitude fighter.  or am i mistaken?   i know very little about russian planes.

Well it was the high-altitude fighter in il2fb and the expansions simply because it turned so poorly but was much faster than all but the La-5FN and -7 at high altitude. In the early war, the MiG-3 was the only high altitude fighter that the VVS had in that game.

 

In real life, full throttle height for the AM-35a was somewhere in the 5000m-6000m range, which allowed it to develop rated power at much higher altitudes than its Klimov-powered Yakovlev cousins. But of course, combat on the Eastern front was much different than in the European or Pacific theatres. The huge fleets of bombers and fighters roaring around at huge altitudes just didn't happen in the East. VVS doctrine usually meant that fighters were protecting Sturmoviks at tree-top altitudes.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I hope the red/blue tinted goggles are left out from this sim, in which I have faith. Also remember that we have more "training" and "flt hrs" than any of those pilots back then. No sim can model pilot quality difference that was still there 1942-43, even as late as 44. In multiplayer this means much harder fights thus can cause disputes as people sometimes tend to forget history already happened and what we have now is different So basically..when the sim is out we can start discussing things with proper data, without wild speculations

[Trooper117]

What things will axis flyers have to watch out for?.... EVERYTHING WITH A RED STAR ON IT!  

(C'mon FSM.. Basics man, Basics!!)