DD_bongodriver Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 No I don't. I have not yet read anything written by a BF 109 pilote. Really? I have read plenty ranging from historical WWII accounts to modern day, they really help me to make up my mind on the issues, you should read some.
ShamrockOneFive Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) There is only one solution- let's buy our own Bf-109 and test it ourselves. We won't need a Spit, they will show up on their own when they learn of our intent. Who's in? If you have $8.999 million lying around I'd be ok with ponying up the rest :D Edited June 11, 2014 by ShamrockOneFive
Nonolem Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) I have read all this thread. So what's your point? That the devs are dishonest? Do you think they have not the same sources, and even some others? Edited June 11, 2014 by Nonolem
Sternjaeger Posted June 11, 2014 Author Posted June 11, 2014 No I don't. I have not yet read anything written by a BF 109 pilote. There was a very interesting recording of a presentation on flying different kinds of warbirds that was posted somewhere here some time ago, do you remember it Bongo?
DD_bongodriver Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Yes, it was an audio recording of Dave Southwood, it should be on YouTube 1
DD_bongodriver Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 I have read all this thread. So what's your point? That the devs are dishonest? Do you think they have not the same sources, and even some others? My point? I just thought that since you regard actual 109 experience so highly then you should read all the available material from pilots who have actually flown them, some opinions vary but they can be averaged out. Do I think the Devs are dishonest? No, absolutely not Do they have all the same sources? I don't know, nor do you
1CGS LukeFF Posted June 11, 2014 1CGS Posted June 11, 2014 500km/h below and it'll spin easily - once you start to get higher speeds than that it gets more difficult to enter a spin with a negative G bunt. The Yak and La-5 are impossible to depart like this. Thanks, I'll have to experiment a bit more, then.
Sternjaeger Posted June 11, 2014 Author Posted June 11, 2014 Thanks mate Guys, this is the sorta people you want to listen to http://youtu.be/xuifkBWyGsw
RydnDirty Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 The more Mustang AKA F4Wildcat talks, the more he undermines his own credibility. I seriously wonder if he is Raaaid. Anyway about the sensitive bf109.... you guys did add some "S" to the curve? I though all the planes were a bit over sensitive so I added some "S: to the curve. Still bit rough and needs work but the game is only 51% done so give the devs a bit of time to polish the FM. I think the ailerons are too good to be true. I read about ailerons taking 4-5 secs to roll the plane 45degrees at 600km/h or 700km/h but in current FM I can roll like f16 at 700km/h. They stiffened the controls some what at high speed but to really do it properly we would all need real size force feed back flight sticks that we could push and pull with all our strength... that is never gonna happen. Its always a compromise. They will have to chip away at it until they get it right. 1
Dakpilot Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Personally, I would never do this. All you're acheiving is to transfer the oversensitivity from one end of the axis to the other. Instead of a linear 1:1 response throughout the range of motion, you end up with a slower less sensitive response in the centre and a twitchy oversensitive response at the ends. In any case, the sensitivity curves apply to ALL planes so for someone that flys more than one plane that'll just add problems to the other planes, or you'll need to change the curve each time you change plane. Have a try with 20% sensitivity , move your controls and observe reactions (whilst inside settings) , not too much of a twitchy oversensitive reaction at the ends. while we are still at 51% this may be useful as a temporary measure until further improvements are implemented (or not ) Cheers Dakpilot
Pringliano Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 I have used a shallow S curve in my rudder axis only, and left pitch and roll linear, but I agree with Extreme_One regarding this being only a transfer, with "lens effects" of the sensitivity to another region of the control travel... We should really learn to adapt to the controls in each aircraft. The reason I used this approach is that, from my RL experience, rudder is always a lot more stiff the the other controls. Bare in mind I only fly gliders IRL, so, rudder is a mandatory control and most gliders, from the old age ones I have flown in early eighties to the modern plastic high performance machines have, almost all, a marked difference in forces being required for rudder vs aileron/elevator control, and since my rudder pedals are Saitek, with just that basic ( and almost useless ) "drag" mechanism to adjust the control tension, I tend to use the rudder a lot more aggressively than I should when using this PC simulators. 1
Dakpilot Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Sorry I had meant to say try the 20% on the rudder to reduce the "oversensitive feel" Cheers Dakpilot
Dakpilot Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Often while flying heavy WWII warbirds after a long flight I have gotten the "rudder knee shake" (prob need more gym time LOL) it can be quite surprising how heavy input forces are needed, to get the same feeling in a sim with twist rudder or pedals is not possible, a bit of "curve" on the rudder is prob more realistic in reality and not such a crime Cheers Dakpilot
Sternjaeger Posted June 11, 2014 Author Posted June 11, 2014 yeah, I guess it's a bit of a compromise, although it'd also probably help if devs spent some time telling us how the peripheral input is elaborated by the sim engine.
Pringliano Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 I think that IL2 models control forces with dynamic pressure, and most probably even some sort of compressibility effects (?) Strangely, MSFS ( since fs2002, including the CFS series ) had a very plausible modelling of control efficiency with speed / dynamic pressure and even mach effects. MS FLIGHT had additional modeling of theses effects, although it's latest DLCs, those ww2 fighters that had the arcade fm appear to defy this claim of mine :-) It's probably the kind of parameter that could be added to the Options / Controls section of any flight simulator. X-Plane 10 does not account for it, or very poorly accounts for control forces / stiffness and that's why unless you force Art Stab and input linearity to extremes, all aircraft feel so much like those great indoor models :-/ I continue enjoying iL2 BoS and it's overall feel, and look forward for any improvements - they'll only make it even more interesting. I am sure the devs will address most of what we present here at the forums as valuable proofs that something isn't ok in some areas. After all, IL2 has good reasons to become, at least as famous and good as Rise of Flight, and now that I finally know what this means, because IL2 BoS made me buy RoF ( almost all DLCs ), I know what I have been missing...
falstaff Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) DD_Bongodriver said: I'm only interested in making a valid point, if you perceive the pilot thing as 'swinging it around' then I'd say there is an envy complex creeping in somewhere. Valid points dont usually tend to include comparisons between pilots and toilet-cleaners. They tend to speak quietly and eloquently for themselves. Know several pilots (brother used to be one). No envy. Be that as it may, I'm sure the devs are aware of these concerns. They have had a (very) thorough airing. They could almost be an airing-cupboard. Edited June 11, 2014 by falstaff
AX2 Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) This incredible We have a problem with the flight models maybe all around , especially with the BF 109 . And some people comes to this thread to say that all is well about the FM, It must be correct You use photoshop The Luftwaffe uses photoshop You no are a reall WWII pilot If you put a "quote" in the thread from a WWII pilot, he's very silly and old to be taken into account If you put a "quote" in the thread from a Pilot doing airshows at BF 109 today, is not useful If you are a real life pilot, you are wrong. Best you learn how to fly At the end this is only an alpha at 51% - BUT YOU ARE WRONG FOR EVER. This forum is stupid, Someone has to stop this. The developers would have to say something, if it's work in progress or if development of FM are finished at today. They are harming the community of BoS with their silence, and They are harming the whole BoS game. Is so hard to say , " Work in Progress for FMs " or the " Work is completed for FMs " ??? Someone get maliciously fun here with our fights, Stop this guys !! We are giving them what they want. Edited June 11, 2014 by F4-Wildcat
Dakpilot Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 How many times has it been repeated that the devs have said they are looking into the FM of 109? The only thing harming this forum is the full on panic mode of some of the posters Cheers Dakpilot 3
Finkeren Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 How many times has it been repeated that the devs have said they are looking into the FM of 109? The only thing harming this forum is the full on panic mode of some of the posters Cheers Dakpilot ^^ This. Get a grip people. It's completely legitimate to voice concerns and discuss different interpretations of how we experience the sim. But to claim that the devs are completely silent about the FM or conducting some nefarious plot to make us all fly with a faulty FM is just ludicrous. 1
DD_bongodriver Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Well what is actually happening is this: more people are finding their way to this game, those people sometimes notice these 'bugs', by a well know phenomenon of the internet and forums they often make their findings known before searching for the historical record of similar findings, regardless of this known fact there are people who decide that an argument over the validity of these claims is in order, which then motivates the previous reporters of these bugs to enter the fray because they know the bugs are documented and acknowledged and feel it's unfair to be attacking their validity, ultimately it all simmers down and the deniers of these issues have to admit the existence of these bugs because even they can't escape the fact the devs have acknowledged them, all of this could be avoided so easily if the deniers just said 'use forum search' or even linked to the existing threads. DD_Bongodriver said: Valid points dont usually tend to include comparisons between pilots and toilet-cleaners. They tend to speak quietly and eloquently for themselves. Know several pilots (brother used to be one). No envy. Be that as it may, I'm sure the devs are aware of these concerns. They have had a (very) thorough airing. They could almost be an airing-cupboard. OK, if it makes you feel better 1
falstaff Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Not so. The great majority of posters in this thread have not denied the point, merely questioned the way it is constantly made. 'Deniers' is a perjorative term with all sorts of connotations. Unncessary, like 'haters'. It is only serves to inflame things. It is a fair bet to say the devs are aware of the question-marks being raised. They would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to be aware. And so far they have played a mean pinball. Not everything has to be a binary us-them, yes-no, confrontational scorn fest, believe it or not. We know there are pilots here, we know their concerns. You may well be right.. ...but for god's sake please give it a rest.... 2
DD_bongodriver Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Not everything has to be a binary us-them, yes-no, confrontational scorn fest, believe it or not. ironic.....think about it
AX2 Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) How many times has it been repeated that the devs have said they are looking into the FM of 109? In this whole thread one time. JtD Changes to the 109 FM are planned according to statements by the developers, which were made some time within the last two weeks. That is a big BIG troll. If someone obtains confidential information by test pilots of BoS , If there are talks or whispers after sneaking backstage, for a select few. I do not know. To me nothing has been said about the FMs and 109. Edited June 11, 2014 by F4-Wildcat
FlatSpinMan Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Enough with this stupid arguing about personal qualifications and the way in which things are phrased. Mustang - would you please calm down with this 109/ anti-German conspiracy that you're flooding every thread with? You've expressed yourself clearly, can you now please turn it down a lot?
AX2 Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Mustang - would you please calm down with this 109/ anti-German conspiracy that you're flooding every thread with? You've expressed yourself anti-German conspiracy ?? Spin Man This is a fact !! not a conspiracy look the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUzYXCiX9FM I'm F4-Wildcat now.
II/JG17_HerrMurf Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 Oh, good lord. Even Raaid has slowed it down and makes (mostly) reasonable arguments nowadays. Your argument has been made. Yelling about it is not doing anything more for your cause. Either the Devs will take action or they won't. If they don't then this title is clearly not for you and there are other titles to occupy your time. The defense must rest and let a witness leave the stand at some point. A judge would by now have dismissed your argument as, "repetitive, move on." It is all a bit tiring now. Must-a-Cat, just chill!! 1
DD_bongodriver Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 ...but for god's sake please give it a rest.... Even I tried.... http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/6860-question-re-109s-handling/?p=125323
Gambit21 Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 How many times has it been repeated that the devs have said they are looking into the FM of 109? The only thing harming this forum is the full on panic mode of some of the posters Cheers Dakpilot This 1
SR-F_Winger Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) I must say this dispersion comparision makes me worried a bit. 109 dispersion on permafire looks like ROF machinegun dispersion while the other one diesperses more too with ongoing triggerfinger but is really far from the german dispersion. Not that is is too much of an issue since who on earth shoots this long:) Well, i guess this must be due to the fact that were still only at 51%? Devs? A word? Edited June 11, 2014 by VSG1_Winger 1
1CGS LukeFF Posted June 11, 2014 1CGS Posted June 11, 2014 This forum is stupid, Someone has to stop this. You are free to leave if you don't like the tone of this forum.
Original_Uwe Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) Dang wildcat, chill out. In the end it is only a game. Edited June 11, 2014 by forsale
Bearcat Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 The devs are looking into the FM of the 109... Suck it up and wait. These threads have a way of turning into $hite storms and back and forth nonsense.. Based on the post made by my esteemed colleague FSM and supported by every other mod, whether they posted in it or not .. the next 109 thread that turns into a whine fest with back and forth BS will end with ALL of the offenders receiving their just do based on that post.. so think about it before you post and if you want to make snide digs at the devs then you won't be doing it here. 3
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