DD_bongodriver Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 I figured it out, the 109 in the video actually did roll in the neg g dive but the cameraman changed the perspective to hide the flaw for propaganda purposes........and photoshopped it a little.
BraveSirRobin Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 Does the dev team find anything that the vox populus posts useful, in the FM discussion, in general terms? I'm sure they'll find that video useful. Definitive proof that the 109 could sustain negative G's is important stuff.
DD_bongodriver Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 This is fun! but nah! seriously the 109 FM is porked.
1CGS LukeFF Posted June 6, 2014 1CGS Posted June 6, 2014 You are right But I have a year of waiting for them to fix the of ammunition dispersion ( Remember Laser vs Potatoes ) ? , sometimes I can not calm down, and go myself extremely furious Then perhaps you need to step away from the forums for a while. 2
1CGS LukeFF Posted June 6, 2014 1CGS Posted June 6, 2014 The game is basically : All aircraft in the world at WWII against 109 and 190. The game begins and end here, not more and not less ! You really need to stop trolling if you want other people to take you seriously. 1
AX2 Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 Apologies LukeFF With all due respect to you, no offense please I do not want to fight, I need friends, I not need more enemies , but I will be grateful if you pay attention Ofcourse some day at the future you will have fun against Japanese planes " the flying torches " BUT If you take an P 51 against which plane you will fight ? And the answer is ... BF 109 , 80% of the time Here you and me do not have dobts , of course is a easy answer AND If you take an Spitfire against which plane you will fight ? And the answer is BF 109 , 80% of the time Here you and me do not have dobts If you take an Yak´s against which plane you will fight ? The answer is BF 109 , 80% of the time Here you and me do not have dobts And .... if you takes a B 17 , Pe 2 , P 39 , Hurricanes , P 40 , Lagg 3 , B 24 , Mig , P 38 , La´s , iI2 , P 47 , Typhons... and any other plane at WWII ... against which plane you will fight ???? the answer is easy... Messerschmitt BF 109 the 80% of the time Sorry but the true name of this game is Messerschmitt BF 109. If any one of this planes the Bf 109 or FW 190 , get f....d FM at BoS the whole game will collapse very soon... " at least at multiplayer for sure ". Today I can see a problem with the BF 109, please think about my words. LukeFF again my apologies. Get fun online !
AX2 Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) LukeFF PLEASE don´t get me wrong Think in this way.. If you take a P 51 your prey to kill will be a Bf 109 at 80% of the time If you take a Spitfire your prey to kill will be a Bf 109 at 80% of the time If you take a Yak´s your prey to kill will be a Bf 109 at 80% of the time if you takes a B 17 , Pe 2 , P 39 , Hurricanes , P 40 , Lagg 3 , B 24 , Mig , P 38 , La´s , iI2 , P 47 , Typhons... and any other plane at WWII your prey for kill will be a Bf 109 at 80% of the time The question is : You want kill a hard prey and get a good trophy ??, and be proud ! or you want to kill a weak pet and get ... a bad taste in your mouth ? If I can choose, I would fix that is wrong in the 109, and have a hard prey to kill , to be proud. Edited June 6, 2014 by Mustang
Stallion Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 I just started reading a book about the BF109, and one of the faults the author brought to my attention was that the control surfaces on the aircraft are, how you say, "wiggly" and weakly secured, causing a lot of flutter in flight. This could explain the rubber-bandy rudder, as it might not always immediately return to perfect straightness after adjustment.
AX2 Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) Beebaboo The BF 109 E has many problem is a fact ... some problems was fixed at F series and others at G series . Although the BF 109 was close to the limit of development But the Luftwaffe had a Spitfire MK V in her hands . If the 109 aerodynamically has a major flaw , they could take some fixes from the Spitfire to apply at 109 F and G series, maybe was a reasonable option for Messerschmitt engineering. I guess Also later the Luftwaffe has a P 51 and P 38 ( and maybe a P47 I don't remember now ) , in their hands, to copy and apply minor fixes to the 109 G engineering , maybe was a reasonable option for Messerschmitt again . . The Spitfire was test extensively ,also a DB 601 engine was installed for test purposes, and get a better speed , vs original engine . I think the exact truth will never be found , But it is a game about BF 109 against all planes at WWII , We could be a little more benevolent with the main plane of the game... I Guess .. I will don´t like have in my hands a Spitfire MK IX or P 51D or Yak 3 , and say ... Game Over ..... multiplayer is death now .. Luftwaffe please disconnect from the server. The 109 G2 / G4 was the best 109 until the mid 44 .. and the MW 50 was not magic .. If I look the G2 today at BoS... The " game over " at multiplayer is coming very fast for BoS. But ... I'm just a fool . Hope for FW 190 .. Edited June 6, 2014 by Mustang
1CGS LukeFF Posted June 6, 2014 1CGS Posted June 6, 2014 Mustang, please, just stop. You're all over the place with your arguments, and I'm not even going to try to respond to them. 3
DD_Arthur Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 Mustang, please, just stop. You're all over the place with your arguments, and I'm not even going to try to respond to them. Well...yeah....but Mustang does make a good point here. The main opposition to the allies would be the '109 and at the moment the FM of the '109 has problems. 3
LLv34_Flanker Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 S! Week's best amusement in this thread. Thanks guys
SCG_Neun Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 If anyone has a link for me....concerning the location where the dev's have commented on reviewing the 109 FM...could you point me in the right direction...Thanks.. 1
Sokol1 Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 ...no... photoshop... 1940's No? http://izismile.com/2012/02/08/historic_photographs_which_are_known_to_be_altered_13_pics-8.html Sokol1
FuriousMeow Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) Well...yeah....but Mustang does make a good point here. The main opposition to the allies would be the '109 and at the moment the FM of the '109 has problems. Mustang's point is that he's getting shot down by Yaks. Its clear, he's already mentioned how uber the Yak is (except if he actually committed to his zoom and subsequent extending away, he wouldn't be getting shot down - but instead he resorts to the cross control spin at the top of his zooms or just after he's leveled out to extend away after leaving the Yaks out of accurate shooting range, and I so wish I had ShadowPlay running when he did that several times because it would be so clear why he's so feverishly hating on the Yak and stating the 109 needs to be so much better). It's interesting how urgent and how desparate the 109 review needs now that the Yak is available online. Prior, the rudder authority was its only issue because it handily ouclassed the LaGG. He even says the 190 needs a review, no one has used it yet because it isn't even available. It will bring firepower and a higher roll rate. When it still isn't an uber insta-ace, we'll see another thread just like this from Mustang. There's a bias coming from him. The 109 doesn't make him Hartmann against all VVS aircraft, and therefore its broken and the Yak is too uber although his style of air combat would make Robert Shaw weep. And fighting Yak's in their domain, under 2KM with zero energy management - mistakes are being made by many a 109 pilot, but even then, it outclasses the Yak unless the fight just devolves into a flat turning circle. Yeah, Allies faced the 109 primarily. And on the VVS side when Stalingrad was going on, it was novices facing the 109. Experts in the Yaks were facing 109s and not being slaughtered. Mustang expects the 109 to have power to weight ratio of a R/C plane, the turning capabilities of a Sopwith Camel, the acceleration of a F-22, and the directional thrust capabilities of the Su-37. I'm sure some items need to be addressed - such as the F4's full throttle time limit, but no - I don't think Mustang has any point other than the 109 is not the sentence above. BoS MP might be over for Mustang because the 109 doesn't guarantee him advantages in all areas, but I'm not seeing a shortage of people using the 109 and having great success with it online currently. Edited June 7, 2014 by FuriousMeow 4
FuriousMeow Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) This show a BF 109 - with no rolls at dive in negative G´s , also a big elevator authority in just 1,5 seconds. Here's the problem with this. As some has said, lack of horizon. Other main points: speed - or lack certainly knowing (unless of course those white dots are geese or ducks, and then by figuring their speed and triangulating their positioning we can figure out just exactly how many parsecs the 109 pulled there), clearly a lack of visual evidence towards control surface deflection, clearly being filmed from another aircraft in the sky close to its speed - that isn't filmed from the ground, and thats a hell of a lot of negative Gs to be pushing. I suspect a brain anyuerysm was next. But since we don't know the circumstances, it could have been just a slight push forward of the stick since there is zero evidence of any control surface deflection, or what the filming aircraft was doing either - possibly this was being filmed in the studios with the Apollo moon landing. This isn't evidence of anything, so many unanswered points - its just a greyscale background with a 109 maybe pushing its nose down relative to another aircraft with no known fixed points (except for the white dot Ostriches up there) this video is only worthwhile to those who want to believe something. That something is that the 109 can do negative Gs? There's only two things that can be for certain from that video, its grey scale and that is probably a 109 (hell, it could be a Buchon - but based on the bright solid sides potentially a D or E model, or maybe Rocketeer). But obviously, the 109's greyscale needs fixing before anything else! Edited June 7, 2014 by FuriousMeow 1
DD_Arthur Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Mustang's point is that he's getting shot down by Yaks. I'm certainly not here to defend Mustang as he's quite obviously able to do that himself. I think Mustang's overall point is that the flight model of the '109 we have in BoS is flawed in several respects. I and quite a few others here agree. He has also pointed out this; Sorry but the true name of this game is Messerschmitt BF 109. Like I said, I'm not here to defend Mustang and yes, he does kinda spray and pray with his arguments but the above is an undeniable truism. If you make a WW2 combat flight sim and set it in Europe then if you fly any sort of allied plane in whatever scenerio then your main opposition is going to be the '109 and if the flight model of the '109 is not what it should be then you have a big, fundamental problem. 2
FuriousMeow Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) What's wrong with it? So far Mustang hasn't said what is actually wrong with it, just that it doesn't allow him to beat all airplanes out there instantly and easily. Just "something" is wrong isn't anything, and especially not "the Yaks are shooting me down, the 109 is clearly terrible!" when there are guys online shooting down Yaks in droves. LastRights13 is one I can think of right now, just knocking them out of the sky. Mustang's video? Again, thats not evidence of anything because it lacks all sorts of everything as was stated one post up. I'm sorry, the 109 is not the be all aircraft and unless you know what you are doing with it - it will not be what you expect of it. There's a reason the Germans stuck with the 109, politics, experience with the type, lack of manufacturing capabilities for many aircraft lines at the same time, but not because it was the best plane and had no problems dominating the skies. The reason the 109 was so good against its counterparts were because the Germans had thousands of hours in the types compared to hundreds or less of the other airforces, and in the less than 20 with the VVS from the start and very several years into the war. So, pilot quality will obviously determine how effective the 109 was against the Yak - and experts in the Yak had no problems downing 109s, even Experten 109 pilots. Its not an ace maker, you have to know what you are doing with it just as the real LuftWaffe did. And then we'll have the 190 coming, which compared to the Spit for the sake of comparison did everything better except turn. I suspect the same will be with the Yak, the 190 will be faster, roll faster, hit harder and retain energy better if the person controlling it uses its best capabilities properly. But we'll see a thread here when the 190 can't turn with the Yak or when the 190 gets jumped by a higher Yak because everyone stays below 2km, there will be lots of complaints when it isn't properly utilized. Mustang is not using the 109 properly, as I said - the top of a zoom, he levels out and then cross control spins allowing those in pursuit a nice shot at an airplane completely out of control and stalling to the ground. He also stays below 2km, which is not the 109's strong point - especially not against a Yak. Edited June 7, 2014 by FuriousMeow 1
FuriousMeow Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 I'm willing to bet the biggest problem, across the board, and it clearly afflicts the 109 the most because it allows far more control than would be available in real life - is simply due to the lack of modelling of stick forces required to manipulate the controls. The 109's cramped cockpit limited leverage for rolling. Not just stick forces, but rudder pedal too. If there was the "pilot stick forces" modelled, these things would be a lot less squirrely. If you could go up in a 109 and had unlimited strength/leverage you'd probably be able to get it to squirrel about the sky... or break it apart doing it.
AX2 Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 FuriousMeow The only thing I will say is that, I am flying red the 80 % of the time at multiplayer, at multiplayer for 1 hour in 109 , I flew 4 hours in Yak 1 or Lagg Most guys if pay attention can see me Flying Yak and Lagg 3 at multiplayer. When I say something, I'm telling neutrally.
FuriousMeow Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 FuriousMeow The only thing I will say is that, I am flying red the 80 % of the time at multiplayer, at multiplayer for 1 hour in 109 , I flew 4 hours in Yak 1 or Lagg Most guys if pay attention can see me Flying Yak and Lagg 3 at multiplayer. When I say something, I'm telling neutrally. Well I faced you in the 109, and you didn't utlize it properly at all - especially not with that cross control spin at the top of a zoom. That's all I'm going to say, I'm done for the day.
AX2 Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Well I faced you in the 109, and you didn't utlize it properly at all - especially not with that cross control spin at the top of a zoom. That's all I'm going to say, I'm done for the day. Yes I saw you at my six. I make a fast escape from you over a small village on deck Later I perform a climb followed by a hard neg G´s dive ... my 109 lost all controls and enter in a uncontrolled spin... like my video... Can you remember the uncontrolled spin ? I was killed 1
DD_Arthur Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 I'm willing to bet the biggest problem, across the board, and it clearly afflicts the 109 the most because it allows far more control than would be available in real life - is simply due to the lack of modelling of stick forces required to manipulate the controls. I think this is a very good point and I really hope this is the issue. RoF does not model stick forces, does it? This means that - like the trim system - it's something that's got to be coded up and hopefully will be part of that remaining percentage of the game still to be produced.
BlackDevil Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 This stick forces discussion can be found by using the search function. No need to copy/paste all arguments pro/contra into this thread.
Descolada Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Is it jsut me or do the ailerons feel heavier in this patch?
DB605 Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 . Not just stick forces, but rudder pedal too. Interesting. Please tell me more how cramped cockpit limited leverage of rudder pedals? And source for that info too. I haven't played BOS over month now because my GPU is kaputt but IIRC problem with 109 handling was noticeable in lower speeds too, nothing to do with stick forces
Sternjaeger Posted June 7, 2014 Author Posted June 7, 2014 either I got used to it or the Bf109F4 handling is slightly better now, not 100% spot on, but still..
AX2 Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) Maybe you get a..... Placebo A placebo (/pləˈsiboʊ/ plə-see-boh; Latin placēbō, "I shall please"[2] from placeō, "I please")[3][4] is a simulated or otherwise medically ineffectual treatment for a disease or other medical condition intended to deceive the recipient. Sometimes patients given a placebo treatment will have a perceived or actual improvement in a medical condition, a phenomenon commonly called the placebo effect. Placebo effect consists of several different effects woven together, and the methods of placebo administration may be as important as the administration itself.[5] In medical research, placebos are given as control treatments and depend on the use of measured suggestion. Common placebos include inert tablets, vehicle infusions,sham surgery,[6] and other procedures based on false information.[1] However, placebos may also have positive effect on a patient's subjective experience who knows that the given treatment is without any active drug, as compared with a control group who knowingly did not get a placebo.[7] Placebo effects are subject of recent scientific research aiming to understand underlying neurobiological mechanisms of action in pain relief, immunosupression, Parkinson disease and depression.[8] Brain imaging techniques show that placebo can have real, measurable effect on physiological changes in the brain.[9] The objective physiological changes have been reported, from changes in heart rate and blood pressure to chemical activity in the brain, in cases involving pain, depression, anxiety, fatigue, and some symptoms of Parkinson’s, but in other cases, like asthma, the effect is purely subjective, when the patient reports improvement despite no objective change in the underlying condition.[10] Placebo effects are subject of recent scientific research aiming to understand underlying neurobiological mechanisms of action in pain relief, immunosupression, Parkinson disease and depression.[8] Brain imaging techniques show that placebo can have real, measurable effect on physiological changes in the brain.[9] The objective physiological changes have been reported, from changes in heart rate and blood pressure to chemical activity in the brain, in cases involving pain, depression, anxiety, fatigue, and some symptoms of Parkinson’s, but in other cases, like asthma, the effect is purely subjective, when the patient reports improvement despite no objective change in the underlying condition.[10] Maybe... . Edited June 7, 2014 by Mustang 1
Sternjaeger Posted June 7, 2014 Author Posted June 7, 2014 maybe, or maybe not... still think the La5 handles like a dream compared to the 109
1CGS LukeFF Posted June 7, 2014 1CGS Posted June 7, 2014 I am flying red That term is irrelevant, since the player can set the two colors (red and blue) to mean whatever they want them to. This isn't the old IL2.
AX2 Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) maybe, or maybe not... still think the La5 handles like a dream compared to the 109 I guess ... Must be a lie Edited June 7, 2014 by Mustang
Bearcat Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 This place is going to get really nasty if the 109 FM stays as it is at present (although tbh I haven't flown the latest patch) Zoo-like, maybe even slightly banana-ish, is my guess. It will be short quite a few members before that happens.. Count on it. As long as it stays civil .. discussion will flow.. when it branches off into nasty land the hammers will come out. 2
I./JG53_BlackJaguar Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 The problem is there even with engine off and gliding at less than 300kp/h...the FM needs to be fixed. 2
III/JG52_Otto_-I- Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) I think "Mustang" has explained very well in this post, and this according to what he says. I was in the ILA2012 airshow (Berlin) next to the man who filmed this video, and I've seen fly this Bf-109G. He did all sorts of aerobatics, and not stall or spin, this plane flies marvellously. (see the bf-109 aerobatics show in minute 15:50 and onwards) I do not understand how the developers can have these serious bugs. Edited June 8, 2014 by III/JG52_Otto_Mas 2
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