IL2 Mod 1943 Half Flaps Issue

[WWDarkdiz]

Salute!

I'm trying to figure out the flaps mechanism on the subject aircraft.  I can get to half flaps from the fully up position only (hold the flaps down key), or to full flaps from the fully up position (tap the flaps down key).  So far so good, works as one would expect.

Here is the issue... how do I get from the half flaps position to the fully down position without first fully raising the flaps?  I get the flaps released message, but no movement.  You cannot go anywhere from the half position except to the fully retracted (up) position.  I posted about this earlier in the bugs section, I got a vague reply about "flaps cleaning"?  I seriously doubt it, makes no sense to me.  Is this right?

Anyone have any insight into this? Enquiring minds want to know...

[Chief_Mouser]

Update Game Updates - Announcements - IL-2 Sturmovik Forum 2.010 announced this feature,

The flaps have only three positions; Up, Takeoff and Landing.

You have them figured out correctly. To use, a single push on Flaps Down extends them fully for Landing. Push and hold extends them halfway down for Takeoff. Flaps Up will raise them fully whether half or fully down. Must be a safety feature, after all, no-one wants to suddenly put the flaps fully down just after takeoff ?.

[WWDarkdiz]

1 hour ago, 216th_Cat said:

Update Game Updates - Announcements - IL-2 Sturmovik Forum 2.010 announced this feature,

The flaps have only three positions; Up, Takeoff and Landing.

You have them figured out correctly. To use, a single push on Flaps Down extends them fully for Landing. Push and hold extends them halfway down for Takeoff. Flaps Up will raise them fully whether half or fully down. Must be a safety feature, after all, no-one wants to suddenly put the flaps fully down just after takeoff ?.

I guess that explains it.  Seems weird though to have a half flap position only for 1 regime of flight.  I was thinking more of approach flaps (half position) then the option to extend them further would be available on short final.

[AndyJWest]

Earlier models of the Il-2 had single-position flaps, only used for landing. The take-off position was only added later (at a guess due to increased aircraft weight), and it was probably simpler to do it that way. The IL-2 isn't difficult to land, so why complicate things? Typical WW2 Soviet thinking. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Technology commensurate with pilot training levels.

[Sokol1]

13 hours ago, WWDarkdiz said:

I guess that explains it.  Seems weird though to have a half flap position only for 1 regime of flight.  

 

What you are missing is that game flaps operation try follow RL planes operation as possible.

 

So are Up-Down (IL-2 early, Spitfire) only flaps, 3/4... position flaps (eg. Ju-87, Ju-88...), incremental flaps (eg. Bf 109, LaGG-2...).

[AndyJWest]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Technology commensurate with pilot training levels.

 

And both commensurate with the resources available. Which is the only way you can win a war, in a situation similar to that the Soviet Union was in. They did a great deal of things wrong, some horrifically so, in war and in peace, but I don't think you can include the development and deployment of the IL-2 among them.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Oh, I totally agree.  They built weapons that worked for their tactical doctrine, manufacturing and supply infrastructure (including pilots/training), and had to pass muster with their overarching political system.  The T34 is a prime example.  It was a very compromised design, crude by any western standard, was an ergonomic disaster for it's crews, and they were lost at a rate of 7 or 8 to 1 against the German opposition, but they still managed to drive the invader out because they could keep pumping the things out, and they worked well enough.   Yet the T 34, if made exactly the same way in the US would never have gotten past the first inspection station on the assembly line based on the quality of the fasteners alone.

[WWDarkdiz]

I don't disagree with all of the above.  Just me with my modern-ish experience flying, thinking that "this makes no sense at all..."

However, in terms of matching RL (thanks Sokol1), I guess if that was the way it was, then this is the way it is.

Having a take-off setting, and only able to raise it to full up when talking in terms of pilot skill and experience actually makes kind of sense, 1 less thing for a likely task-saturated, inexperienced pilot to think about.

The Russians are masters of simplicity, if it breaks, glue on a new one. Reminds me of the urban legend of developing a writing utensil for space.  NASA spent untold $$$ coming up with a 0-gravity pen of sorts.  The Russian solution?  A pencil.

Thanks to all who posted in this thread, made me approach this issue from a whole new direction

Happy Holidays everyone, please stay safe and look after yourselves

[BlitzPig_EL]

If you think that makes no sense, try the flaps in the Mig-3.  Those really are beyond the pale.

[Avimimus]

On 12/28/2020 at 9:28 PM, WWDarkdiz said:

I guess that explains it.  Seems weird though to have a half flap position only for 1 regime of flight.  I was thinking more of approach flaps (half position) then the option to extend them further would be available on short final.

 

Usually there are different recommended settings for flaps at landing and at takeoff... this is true of almost all aircraft which have flaps. The shortest takeoff involves not just lowering the minimum flight-speed but also keeping the drag so one can accelerate to that take-off speed! This means that take-off is usually done with only moderate flap deflection. Whereas one wants to be able to come to a halt quickly during landing so one can afford to go to maximum flap deflection.

 

The set-up in the Il-2 is actually superior to some British WW2 aircraft in this regard, and it is certainly better than the earlier hand-operated I-16 flaps (which allow picking any deflection... using patience).

[WWDarkdiz]

Well after reading some of the comments, having the half-flap option now seems to make sense, as it gives rookie pilots 1 less thing to think about in a task-saturated situation.  Think of reducing the pilot workload by limiting his choices (... last 2 aircrew are a pilot and a dog.  The pilot is there to feed the dog, and the dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything).

When I looked at it in detail earlier, I couldn't for the life of me figure out WHY you could not get to full flaps from half-flaps.  It HAD to be a software bug!  But clearly, it isn't, and the developers got it right (again).  I  would question it far more severely in a more modern aircraft, or more western-designed aircraft.

Agree also that this option is actually better than for some British aircraft, only having the full up or full down option.  Jury is still out on the Mig-3, I-16 and for that matter the JU-52 though...

[BlitzPig_EL]

The Ju 52 is utterly mind bending, but at least you have some faucets in the cockpit to twiddle with...