Whats going on with the sniper tail gunners in this sim ?

[RickVic]

I nearly havend played in a year and started some days ago. after some attacks on stukas and il2s it seems the sniper gunners from the original IL2 1946 are back in this game. it seems impossible to attack a plane with tail guns without getting hit, often resulting in killing my pilot. i was also suprised how accurate my tail gunner in FC is shooting. it seems way to accurate. is there some mod or anything to change this ?

[norsetto]

This seems especially true after 4.504. I basically stopped doing intercept missions or just engage the escort.

[cardboard_killer]

Put it in the complaint section. I find the tail gunners to be exceptionally accurate unless they are "novice" pilots. Good tactics do help, but an "ace" piloted plane gets off insanely accurate shots.

[Ram399]

I have always found tailgunners to be a force to be reckoned with in this sim- especially with regard to the Pe-2.
While I haven't really noticed an increase in overall gunner accuracy recently, I do agree that they sometimes land shots that would have Simo Häyhä sweating.
Though at other times its as if they can't hit anything at all, as seems to be the case with the gunners in the A-20 (At least in my experience).

I don't think the AI gunner system needs a targeting rework per se, but I would maybe like to see the implementation of some kind of suppression system perhaps.
While obviously the best solution to a tail gunner is to just shoot him early on, I feel like in cases where you are landing a number of hits on an aircraft and the gunner returns fire his accuracy should suffer accordingly.

It makes sense at least to me that any gunner who is having their plane shot to bits around them is not going to be calmly squeezing off an accurate burst.
I've lost track of how many times an IL-2 tailgunner has single-shot engine-killed my 109 through a hail of Minengeschoß rounds detonating all around him.

[Props]

Yeah, I have always felt that the rear gunners have been possessed of a superhuman ability to hit their target even in high G maneuvers in IL2 1946 and BoX. So I never attack from the rear in the old sim or this one. I have also felt that the damage inflicted by those small caliber MGs is a bit over the top as well, causing way more damage than the hits I take from the much larger caliber MGs and cannon of the fighter adversaries ( of course those rear, belly, and top gunners are also more likely to get strikes on your engine and cooling systems due to your aspect as you approach so I think you have to take that in to some accounting here). I always try for a frontal off side attack, and if that's not possible a high or low belly side attack having much better luck in those approaches. 

 

Ground attack deaths due to AAA is my real nemesis and history has shown that to be the true pilot killer. The 4th FG estimated that by the end of '44 pilot losses to AAA was in the vicinity of 80%! So I always feel lucky when I survive a ground attack / strafing run on defended targets in the sim. So I believe that while the AI gunners in the air are laser sighted, I think the ground based AAA is a bit more realistic. 

[Lusekofte]

AA is the same. It is work in progress. 

Problem is, the software knows where your plane is at all times. Gunners is already aiming at you when you get into their sector of fire. If you by any chance at that point aiming your plane at them you are a sitting duck. 

Several  books confirm that being in IL 2 and PE 2 line of fire was down right lethal. So this is accurate. But getting hit in the outer border of its shooting sector like what's happening in this game is utter rubbish. At some point the gunner cannot aim as fast, or know exactly where you appear as fast. This is the reason for gunners unrealistic behavior  

They know where you are at all times. This is also the reason SP is not that good

Edited December 28, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[RickVic]

I nearly havend played in a year and started some days ago. after some attacks on stukas and il2s it seems the sniper gunners from the original IL2 1946 are back in this game. it seems impossible to attack a plane with tail guns without getting hit, often resulting in killing my pilot. i was also suprised how accurate my tail gunner in FC is shooting. it seems way to accurate. is there some mod or anything to change this ?

 

One minute ago i attacked a Bristol Fighter from below and the gunner was able to hit me and kill my pilot. did this guy shoot through his floor ?

[Avimimus]

 

1 hour ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

Problem is, the software knows where your plane is at all times.

 

Yeah, unsurprisingly the algorithm knows the correct firing solution and then adds errors to it. The result is that the gunners are always too inaccurate (i.e. a sufficient error is added) or perfectly accurate (no error). This is partly due to range, but it is also randomised over time (so there will be some accurate bursts even at long ranges).

 

One result is that there is also a 'perfect range' where the errors added kindof cancel each other out and the gunner is always accurate at that range... so one has to be moving a lot (evasively) when one pass through that range. However, closer is more survivable, as is far away. At least this is how it was a year or two ago (the code seems largely unchanged from when I did my RoF gunner mods).

 

If they redid the system with a couple different types of more linear ranging errors (i.e. not based on radii - but instead based on a value for cross-wind, a value for range)... it might help.

 

There should also be errors for gross vs. fine movement (i.e. turning a gunner ring or rotating a turret a large amount should produce different inaccuracies than fine adjustments)... these should be more like the existing radial errors (but should be relatively short lasting... with the longer lasting errors due to more linear flaws estimation).

 

Of course - the main barrier to large ships and to formations of B-17 and B-24 is apparently the number of gunners... so improving the realism of gunners may go against optimising them... something to keep in mind when making wishlists

 

P.S.

It would be great if we were given a second set of controls for the Flying Corp aircraft to adjust the ring and elevation of the gun mount separately from the motion of the flexible mount. The controls are all linked to the mouse and if one aims downward on some aircraft it'll actually bring the guns into a lowered position (thus reducing the field of fire downward)!

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Avimimus

[Irishratticus72]

I swear to god, that last il2 rear gunner chucked his tuna sandwich at me and junked my engine.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Whenever I generate a mission with SYN_Vander's Easy Mission Generator I always open it in the mission editor and set all bombers to the "low" AI setting, and I will rarely use the He 111s or Ju88s as an AI because they are quite frankly, death stars.  Even when substituting Bf 110s in the AI bomber flights their tail gunners will make incredible off axis sniper shots while the 110 pilots are trying their best to emulate Manfred von Richthofen.   It's gotten to the point after the latest patch that unless I am in a Hurricane or Tempest with the 4 Hispanos convergence set to at least 500 meters, I won't bother intercepting AI bombers any more.

[BR_Calinho]

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

I've seen them all.

 

The "get gud" response is not the cure for the sniper AI programming.

[Avimimus]

12 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I've seen them all.

 

The "get gud" response is not the cure for the sniper AI programming.

 

Well... I learned how to do a kind of slide-slipping attack (while raking the bomber from tip to tip) that manipulates the AI so that it can't really hit you... but teaching people who to game the gunners so they aren't a threat isn't much better than leaving them to be picked off by gunners! Neither is that realistic.

[QB.Gregor-]

Whats interesting is when they hit, it is almost everytime an instant hit to the engine or pilot, rarely hits on the wings. Also here is a nice example of a long range snipe: https://streamable.com/0uxoch

[[DBS]Browning]

The AI gunners are much better than humans in snapshots where there is little time to line up the target.

 

The AI is often better than humans at high deflection shots. They will sometimes get hits when a human gunner would not even think of attempting the shot.

 

The AI gunners are often worse than humans in low deflection shots. When a plane is parked close on your six and all you need to do is point the sights directly at it, a human will hit with 80% accuracy or more, whilst the AI will sometimes miss every shot or not fire at all.

 

The AI is much worse than humans at correcting missed shots. If a human notices that their shots are not hitting the enemy, they will either change their aim or stop firing. The AI sometimes continues to waste ammo without improving its aim, even when shots are very far off the target. This can be abused by fighters who can stay in one location until the bomber's ammo runs dry, safe in the knowledge that the AI will never hit them there.

 

The AI is much worse than humans at avoiding friendly fire. They will attempt to shoot through friendly bombers to hit targets behind them. If they hit a friend, they do not stop firing, but continue to hit them. It's not nice to die this way.

 

In multiplayer, I'd much rather have a human gunner than an AI gunner, as overall the AI is not as good as a human on the average skill setting, but the problem isn't the difficulty of the AI; the problem is just as much about the shots they miss as it is about the shots they hit.

 

I don't play single player or coop, so this is the only AI issue I care about, but I know there are other AI issues that are more important to fix first.

Edited December 28, 2020 by [DBS]Browning

[Luftschiff]

Agreed - A long-running and consistent issue. Multiple gunners can trade off targets without any delay or fault of aim, even in a high G maneuver against aircraft moving in and out of their line of fire at 700 km/h. There are better and worse ways to attack, but the issue cannot be denied. It's ridiculous.

[[DBS]Browning]

So far as solutions go, I know that any solution must use an absolute minimum of CPU time, so anything complex is out of the question.

I would suggest something like:

 

A simple raytrace friendly fire check every quarter second or so when the gun is firing.

This is in order to reduce, but not eliminate, friendly fire.

 

A lower maximum traverse speed for the AI's guns and do not allow them to point towards enemies that are not already in their firing cone

This is to prevent strange snapshots and accurate tracking of targets moving quickly across the gunner's vision.

 

An increase in gunner accuracy, but a significant penalty to accuracy the greater the amount of deflection needed. Such a penalty should decrease with trigger-down time to simulate the gunner dialling in the deflection as they shoot.

This is to prevent unusual deflection shots, prevent the blind spots where they fire endlessly without hope of hitting, but to improve the zero-deflection shooting.

 

Of course, I say all of this without any real knowledge of how they currently work.

 

 

[rieper_420]

Hello again RickVic!

 

I quickly made a mod to make the AI gunners less accurate:

Please note: barely tested - I literally tested this for 5 minutes total in 2 QMB missions

 

see attached file & here: http://www.filedropper.com/hackblindgunners

 

I was snooping around in the file:

(null)\luascripts\worldobjects\bots\turretcontrollerai.txt (extracted LuaScripts.gtp):

and found some interesting values: (thanks google tranlate as my russian is still rather basic):

 

// default aiming error rate

AddCoef = 0.05f;

 

 

// firing time - continuous burst, and then waiting time
FireShootTimeMin = 1.0f;
FireShootTimeMax = 1.5f;

FireWaitTimeMin = 1.0f;    
FireWaitTimeMax = 2.0f;

 

// time after which the erroneous sight passes from one point to another // and the time for which sight errors occur

ErrorCircleTime = 2.0f;

ErrorChangeTime = 1.0f;

 

.. and more stuff

 

I see some intriguing options here to make some mod, even just mod dedicated gunner positions by defining a new turretcontrollerai_blind.txt and using this bot to control the most "sniper" turrets.

 

Update:

I tried the following changes in turretcontrollerai.txt:

Summary:

I am not sure if the AI is now too inaccurate, I just flew a QMB Yak-9 vs 4 average skill He-111 and I was cruising thru their formation and barely getting hit. When flying directly behind a He-11 at <200m for 5 seconds, my plane started receiving lots of hits and then caught fire...

 

AI less accurate (also skill based)

AI should correct sighting errors now more frequently

AI can shoot shorter bursts

 

//default aiming error rate

AddCoef = 0.07f; // org: 0.05

 

// coefficients for the dependence of the final shooting area on the AI ??level
CoefLow        = 20.0f;
CoefMed        = 3.5f; //org: 3.0
CoefHigh    = 1.5f; //org: 1.0
CoefAce        = 1.0f; //org: 0.5

 

// time after which the erroneous sight passes from one point to another
// and the time for which sight errors occur
ErrorCircleTime = 1.0f; //org: 2.0
ErrorChangeTime = 0.5f; //org: 1.0

 

//  firing time - continuous burst, and then waiting time
FireShootTimeMin = 0.5f; //org: 1.0
FireShootTimeMax = 1.5f;

FireWaitTimeMin = 0.7f;    //org: 1.0
FireWaitTimeMax = 2.5f; //org: 2.0

 

 

 

Best regards

Rieper

 

Hack_BlindGunners.zip

Edited December 28, 2020 by rieper_420
update

[Luftschiff]

I do think we fundamentally need this addressed at the code level and so for MP as well, rather than relying on mods, though the effort is much appreciated.

[RickVic]

Is the mod installed via JSGME ?

[rieper_420]

6 hours ago, RickVic said:

Is the mod installed via JSGME ?

Yes of course

[RickVic]

not really sure it if works. still got some sniper hits. attacks from behind still seem like a suicide often

also i get a error message if i used it together with the tracers mod

[rieper_420]

Greetings,

this is just some tweaking of values and will not improve anything much - might even break more than helps...

Either AI will be super inaccurate or snipery again

 

I guess you could increase the base AddCoef value even more - feel free to tweak and test more - I will not pursue this deeper at the current time.

 

It seems to me that the comments from Avimimus are quite correct: he seems to know a lot more than me on this regards, I found his comments very interesting - thanks

 

But on my guesswork on the formula used, there really is the mentioned 'perfect range'  - quite fun to dig into trigonometry again ?

 

// axis_ error (meters) = tan (
// random_number * (AddCoef + ProjSpeedCoef * difference_speed_in_sight_plane (in meters per second))
// * (current_overload * OverloadCoef + CoefLow / Hi / Ace)

 

 

Best regards

Rieper

[357th_KW]

The AI gunners also seem to ignore any injuries that don’t kill them.  Case in point:  https://combatbox.net/en/sortie/log/1076260/?tour=29  The AI was hit for 90% damage with my opening shots (hit the pilot too) but just kept on shooting and eventually lit me up as the plane was crashing.  It’s just absurd that in a straight machine gun duel, the party with 6 or 8 .50’s and the gunner safely behind a huge engine and some armor and armored glass will often lose to a gunner with 2 x 30 calibers and no protection.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Nobody feared isolated bombers, only massed formations with combined firepower were respected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO4B4-DvS-o&t=2s

[CUJO_1970]

This only results in A-20 gunner taking a short nap...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But don't worry, while he takes a short nap, his gun continues to expertly track and score hits...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Until he wakes up and disengages auto-tracking....

 

 

 

[Bremspropeller]

16 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

This only results in A-20 gunner taking a short nap...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But don't worry, while he takes a short nap, his gun continues to expertly track and score hits...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Until he wakes up and disengages auto-tracking....

 

 

 

 

So the gunners are worthless and it's actually the guns? ?

 

 

I share the frustration of being sniper-gunned.

To me, the Me 110 is the worst possible enemy, when flying a P-51. He can shoot at you from all directions, while I just have a bag of sand to throw at them...

 

But then again, if there were no ultragunners, transferring a singleship-bomber into a porcupine, flying bombers would pretty much blow and nobody would do it.

 

[Talisman]

When you think about the real life effects of gravity and trying to use a gun when the gunners aircraft is manoeuvring and trying to keep a gun to his shoulder and use the gunsight with any accuracy then I think the AI gunners modelling is amazing and overdone IMHO.  Now, if we consider turret operated guns, then they were so much more effective in real life, which is why they were developed.  So ask yourself this question, if manual hold in the shoulder guns are as accurate as we have them now, how much more accurate will proper turret operated guns be?  To historically model the increased accuracy of turret guns over a hold in the shoulder gun, I am not sure that the developers have left themselves a place to go.

 

If the increased accuracy of turret guns over hold in the shoulder is ever modelled on future aircraft then things are going to get even worse me thinks.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[cardboard_killer]

1 hour ago, Talisman said:

If the increased accuracy of turret guns over hold in the shoulder is ever modelled on future aircraft then things are going to get even worse me thinks.

 

I don't think that has to be, but I cannot think of the flimsy mounted mgs sitting backwards in planes being flung about with crazy engine and wind vibrations while I dial in my rifle on the 100 yard range before hunting season. That these guys hit anything is amazing to me. If they hit almost nothing in the game it would be understandable by me.

[Yogiflight]

4 hours ago, Talisman said:

When you think about the real life effects of gravity and trying to use a gun when the gunners aircraft is manoeuvring and trying to keep a gun to his shoulder and use the gunsight with any accuracy then I think the AI gunners modelling is amazing and overdone IMHO. 

They didn't even hold them to their shoulders, as those machineguns didn't have shoulder rests like infantry many machineguns. The gunners were holding them just with their hands, which, additionally to what you wrote, led to a lot more spread in their bursts, than the mounted guns of electric turrets or the fix guns of fighters had. You simply do not have that much control over a machinegun, when only holding it with your hands.

[TCW_Chattytumbler]

On 12/28/2020 at 7:32 PM, rieper_420 said:

Hello again RickVic!

 

I quickly made a mod to make the AI gunners less accurate:

Please note: barely tested - I literally tested this for 5 minutes total in 2 QMB missions

 

see attached file & here: http://www.filedropper.com/hackblindgunners

 

I was snooping around in the file:

(null)\luascripts\worldobjects\bots\turretcontrollerai.txt (extracted LuaScripts.gtp):

and found some interesting values: (thanks google tranlate as my russian is still rather basic):

 

// default aiming error rate

AddCoef = 0.05f;

 

 

// firing time - continuous burst, and then waiting time
FireShootTimeMin = 1.0f;
FireShootTimeMax = 1.5f;

FireWaitTimeMin = 1.0f;    
FireWaitTimeMax = 2.0f;

 

// time after which the erroneous sight passes from one point to another // and the time for which sight errors occur

ErrorCircleTime = 2.0f;

ErrorChangeTime = 1.0f;

 

.. and more stuff

 

I see some intriguing options here to make some mod, even just mod dedicated gunner positions by defining a new turretcontrollerai_blind.txt and using this bot to control the most "sniper" turrets.

 

Update:

I tried the following changes in turretcontrollerai.txt:

Summary:

I am not sure if the AI is now too inaccurate, I just flew a QMB Yak-9 vs 4 average skill He-111 and I was cruising thru their formation and barely getting hit. When flying directly behind a He-11 at <200m for 5 seconds, my plane started receiving lots of hits and then caught fire...

 

AI less accurate (also skill based)

AI should correct sighting errors now more frequently

AI can shoot shorter bursts

 

//default aiming error rate

AddCoef = 0.07f; // org: 0.05

 

// coefficients for the dependence of the final shooting area on the AI ??level
CoefLow        = 20.0f;
CoefMed        = 3.5f; //org: 3.0
CoefHigh    = 1.5f; //org: 1.0
CoefAce        = 1.0f; //org: 0.5

 

// time after which the erroneous sight passes from one point to another
// and the time for which sight errors occur
ErrorCircleTime = 1.0f; //org: 2.0
ErrorChangeTime = 0.5f; //org: 1.0

 

//  firing time - continuous burst, and then waiting time
FireShootTimeMin = 0.5f; //org: 1.0
FireShootTimeMax = 1.5f;

FireWaitTimeMin = 0.7f;    //org: 1.0
FireWaitTimeMax = 2.5f; //org: 2.0

 

 

 

Best regards

Rieper

 

Hack_BlindGunners.zip 2.56 kB · 3 downloads

Awesome data. I have no idea how to check this myself but somewhere in that file are there any clues as to the ‘base’ accuracy/value of each aircraft type’s gunners?

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

This is a problem that every combat flight sim has unfortunately. I feel the GB gunners are actually less OP than 1946, and CLoD.

[blue_max]

+1 for fixing the damn tail gunners. I absolutely love attacking large bomber formations in VR, it's so cool. For about 15 seconds.

[Bilbo_Baggins]

On 12/30/2020 at 7:58 AM, VBF-12_KW said:

The AI gunners also seem to ignore any injuries that don’t kill them.  Case in point:  https://combatbox.net/en/sortie/log/1076260/?tour=29  The AI was hit for 90% damage with my opening shots (hit the pilot too) but just kept on shooting and eventually lit me up as the plane was crashing.  It’s just absurd that in a straight machine gun duel, the party with 6 or 8 .50’s and the gunner safely behind a huge engine and some armor and armored glass will often lose to a gunner with 2 x 30 calibers and no protection.

 

This. A long time abnormality I wish was addressed. 

 

Despite the ever infamous gunner accuracy, awareness and tracking ability... I'd actually be okay with it if the gunner crew were at least somewhat more affected, suppressed or disoriented by barrages of hits. Testing in QM you can see the insane amount of hits needed to kill or injure gunners. They are just not ruffled by anything. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Bilbo_Baggins

[357th_KW]

Had this happen last night.  My opening burst on the Ju88 shredded the crew compartment and wounded or killed everyone.  Literally 1 second later terminator Hans shrugged off his .50 caliber wounds and locked onto me with his laser vision, ignoring the continued .50s zipping right next to him and setting my P-47 on fire with his single 7.9mm machine gun.  Absolutely absurd.

[von_Tom]

 

That's pretty much a rerun of every attack I've done against a Pe2.

 

I know I'm going  to have one run at a Pe2 before limping home (on a good day) but Ju87s scare me more than anything.

 

von Tom

[gimpy117]

On 4/6/2021 at 2:41 PM, VBF-12_KW said:

Had this happen last night.  My opening burst on the Ju88 shredded the crew compartment and wounded or killed everyone.  Literally 1 second later terminator Hans shrugged off his .50 caliber wounds and locked onto me with his laser vision, ignoring the continued .50s zipping right next to him and setting my P-47 on fire with his single 7.9mm machine gun.  Absolutely absurd.

you're first problem is expecting .50's to do anything more than a bb gun could do.

meanwhile hits from 20mm mine rounds wound you when you hit even remotely near the pilot. remember when they used to knock you out too? 

 

[357th_KW]

19 minutes ago, gimpy117 said:

you're first problem is expecting .50's to do anything more than a bb gun could do.

meanwhile hits from 20mm mine rounds wound you when you hit even remotely near the pilot. remember when they used to knock you out too? 

 

Yeah, I think the pilot wounds got nerfed around the same time as the big DM update last year ... that probably only contributes to the ongoing AP complaints, since pilot hits are their primary damage mechanism.

[PatrickAWlson]

Something has changed recently.  Even on novice settings AAA and airborne gunners are once again deadly accurate.  Was flying a ground attack in an FW190.  A flight of PE2s did a dive bombing run practically on my head (that part was pretty cool).  I turned into one as he was pulling up and got ready to fire from 5:00.  He had just pulled out of a dive and was banked 20 degrees - far from straight and level.  SOB got me with one burst.

[357th_KW]