Key to skip flight to action

[AlexandreB]

On old IL2 series there was a key that we could use to skip long flights until action.

I enjoy a long realistic mission as anybody else but after a couple of missions on offline campaign, doing 45 minutes inbound and outbound escorting IL2s on my i-16, gets pretty boring.

Using time rate isn't working very well. Maintaining formation over 2x time isn't easy.

Isn't there a way to speed things, so that offline campaign be a little more fun?

[gydaveb]

Agreed. While the game is currently pretty great, the amount of time spent on some missions (mainly escort) is a bit excessive. A jump to action command, or just improved time acceleration would be a big plus.

[Avimimus]

I'm sure it would increase the number of people who would buy it (easier for casual players to get into, and much easier for people who don't have much time - e.g. gaps while looking after kids - to actually complete campaign missions).

 

If it could be done... if even breaking missions into several pre-saved points could be done - it would be a tremendous feature - probably more important than any feature released in the last three years.

[fiddlinjim]

This would really be a boon to players as some of the distances are just too long and require sitting there for what seems an interminable time.

Granted real missions may have been long and tedious but this is a game and an option for players to get to the action quickly would be helpful,

of course, not everyone would want to use it and that would be their choice.   I use time acceleration now but a quick snap to the action would be a valuable option.  

[Juri_JS]

In the old Il-2 it wasn't a real skip function. The mission was still running in the background, but graphics were disabled and probably also AI/FM calculations reduced to achieve higher time acceleration. No idea if this would be possible in GB. I would prefer to see improvements to CPU usage in the game, that would also allow higher time acceleration.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Juri_JS

[Soilworker]

What I've started doing (because I can only play VR and some games on my PC for 30-60mins before the f-ing thing BSoDs ?) is using autopilot + time accel. to fly to objectives. That way you can fly in formation with compressed time. (Far from a perfect solution but an option non the less.) 

[Blitzen]

Ditto esp on the huge Rhineland map...

[blue_max]

+5 for this, my attention span is not up to the task of spending ten minutes just staring out of my cockpit.

[rieper_420]

I am right now flying a tempest mission on the huge Rhineland map right now on autopilot + time acceleration while writing this post on my 2nd screen screen :-)

[Taxman]

18 minutes ago, rieper_420 said:

I am right now flying a tempest mission on the huge Rhineland map right now on autopilot + time acceleration while writing this post on my 2nd screen screen ?

Well to add to your thought I check my cell phone for new messages and  the news.   Being as the news I do get is from around the world I have found some interesting reading.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Taxman
Removed extra word

[Thad]

QMB! ?

[Noisemaker]

Well, if you think about it, when flying campaign, and you're not assigned to the flight, the program calculates over a few seconds everything that happened  in that flight (theoretically) and spits out a result.  If the game is actually calculating flights and combat etc. without the burden of graphics that quickly, it should well be feasible to add a skip time function. 

[BP_Lizard]

You guys remember MS Combat Flight Sim 2 where you hit a key, see your fly do a quick flyby, and spawn at the next waypoint? I thought that was a pretty cool option to have.

[SharpeXB]

The fact that action in a mission could occur at predictable points would mean very dull predictable gameplay. In the current career, the fact that action can happen anywhere anytime is part of the appeal. There’s quick missions for players who want predictable action. Career already has an option to fly short missions and time acceleration.

 

The original Campaign which came with BoS had a predictable “Action Point” and wasn’t very interesting due to that design. It had simplistic “ingress” and “egress” waypoints as well. It wasn’t very popular. 

[Soilworker]

10 hours ago, BP_Lizard said:

You guys remember MS Combat Flight Sim 2 where you hit a key, see your fly do a quick flyby, and spawn at the next waypoint? I thought that was a pretty cool option to have.

 

Oh Dynamix were doing that back in the days of Aces over Europe and Aces of the Pacific.

 

I have strong memories of exiting the flyby sequence and hearing the engine note play again. I'm pretty sure it was a perfect fourth because every time I distinctly hear that interval in music or play it on guitar I'm instant brought back to playing AoE & AotP as a kid. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Soilworker

[AlexandreB]

9 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The fact that action in a mission could occur at predictable points would mean very dull predictable gameplay. In the current career, the fact that action can happen anywhere anytime is part of the appeal. There’s quick missions for players who want predictable action. Career already has an option to fly short missions and time acceleration.

 

 

Sorry, but this is not true.

With current format, during flight you usually get a warning by someone from our side spoting enemies. Usually a few miles away and a lot of times it doesn't mean you see action.

Before that, the flight was just a long boring flight without any surprise. I just want to eliminate this part of flight from equation. Like just old IL2, your flight is activate when this first warnings accur or with some distance to enemy threshold so that means there are enemies in the vicinity but just that. You still have that unpredictable gameplay, not knowing exactly where they are, how many are they, where you are and  from where they came.

Of course this is suposed to be as option. If you still want to flight 45 minutes each side to get yourself to action, you can.

 

Right now, the campaign is very well built, but after a couple of fights it became very boring and tiring. I know a lot of people, myself included that is not enjoing it because of this.

People have to understand that a lot of people have family lives, some times with kids and we just have an hour or less before bed time to enjoy our hobby.

Edited December 10, 2020 by AlexandreB

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, AlexandreB said:

With current format, during flight you usually get a warning by someone from our side spoting enemies.

And sometimes you don’t get any warning. What you’re asking is to make the missions unimaginative and predictable. Again, the original Campaign (which wasn’t well liked) had this predictable Action Point. The original Campaign was actually referred to as “Advanced Quick Mission”

If you want shorter Career missions, select a squadron closer to the front line and do the short mission option. We all have lives but most players want the Career to be realistic and immersive.

[AlexandreB]

I really don't get your point.

I'm not asking you to play the way I like. Nobody here is asking to remove anything. You can allways play the way you fill immersive and suits you better.

We just want an option to make actual campaign more "restrictive available time" user friendly. 

Honestly, if we are just asking for an option and not some mandatory rule, why is this  suggestion so upsetting to you.

Aren't we allowed to have different opinions on how we want to play and what is more immersive to us?

 

As you, I also want to have a realistic and immersive campaign. The difference is that I don't think flying 1 hour each mission just persuing my flight and keep formation knowing that I'm stiil 1 hour away from action, adds nothing to that immersive you are talking. But hey! That's just my opinion and that's as valid as yours.

 

About what most players want, none of us is in the position of knowing real numbers. I belong to a small comunity of about ten flight sim enthusiasts and  not a single one of them is enjoing or flying offline campaign because of this issue, but you could have different numbers and both of them are correct.

Edited December 10, 2020 by AlexandreB

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, AlexandreB said:

The difference is that I don't think flying 1 hour each mission just persuing my flight and keep formation knowing that I'm stiil 1 hour away from action,

If you play more of the career mode you’ll realize there is no “action point”. Action can happen anywhere during the flight. So there’s no way to skip to that point because it doesn’t exist. Yes there’s an objective, but a lot can happen on the way there or back. Frankly that’s the exciting part. 

[oc2209]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Action can happen anywhere during the flight. So there’s no way to skip to that point because it doesn’t exist.

 

This is not strictly true. A lot depends on the mission type.

 

Intercepts absolutely have an 'action point.' You will never meet enemy planes outside of the intercept zones. In bomber intercepts, you're vectored to their flight path. In ground attack plane intercepts, it's a static zone where you will always find the enemy in that area.

 

In troop/ground cover missions, you will never be intercepted on your way to the area to be covered. The exact time at which the enemy flight(s) enters the target area is variable, but nothing is variable on your way to the target area.

 

In escort missions, you're generally intercepted near the target area, if at all.

 

In ground attack missions, you're again most often intercepted near the target area.

 

*edit: forgot to mention free hunts. I've never met the enemy before the 3rd waypoint in these. I usually encounter the enemy on or shortly after the last waypoint in enemy territory.

 

I can't think of any examples of the 100+ career sorties I've been in, where my flight is attacked well outside the target zone. If it would be too difficult to implement a system where you exit waypoint skipping based on enemy visual contact, then at the very least you could be skipped to within a certain range of the target area. 15-20 miles out would do the trick. Then the player could use basic time acceleration already in the game to finish up that small distance and look for enemies.

 

Now, if you're talking about waypoint skipping on the way back home, that's a little more variable, but still not much. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been chased back to my base after leaving a mission area.

Edited December 10, 2020 by oc2209

[LukeFF]

14 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

This is not strictly true. A lot depends on the mission type.

 

Intercepts absolutely have an 'action point.' You will never meet enemy planes outside of the intercept zones. In bomber intercepts, you're vectored to their flight path. In ground attack plane intercepts, it's a static zone where you will always find the enemy in that area.

 

In troop/ground cover missions, you will never be intercepted on your way to the area to be covered. The exact time at which the enemy flight(s) enters the target area is variable, but nothing is variable on your way to the target area.

 

In escort missions, you're generally intercepted near the target area, if at all.

 

In ground attack missions, you're again most often intercepted near the target area.

 

*edit: forgot to mention free hunts. I've never met the enemy before the 3rd waypoint in these. I usually encounter the enemy on or shortly after the last waypoint in enemy territory.

 

While all of that is mostly true, it's a big step forward from the old mission set, where the only place and time you would be intercepted would be right smack over the target. There was no being intercepted before one's flight reached the target or after leaving the target (which happens a lot now in bomber careers).

 

Hopefully, as time allows, the developers can broaden things so that there is a wider "corridor" where action can take place.

Edited December 10, 2020 by LukeFF

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

I can't think of any examples of the 100+ career sorties I've been in, where my flight is attacked well outside the target zone.

That’s surprising because I have had many experiences like that. If every career mission went on with nothing unexpected happening it would be a very dull system. This might vary depending on the theater or career. Many times in my Lw BoS career I have been attacked at my home base after a mission, seen fights occurring on the way to and from missions, been shadowed and attacked by enemy fighters, found enemy aircraft to attack along the flight plan and so on. 
What you’re describing would be a very dull campaign design indeed, like a quick mission far away that you just have to fly there and back from. Indeed why bother at all and just skip there. But that’s not how it does or should work. 

[LukeFF]

4 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

In troop/ground cover missions, you will never be intercepted on your way to the area to be covered. The exact time at which the enemy flight(s) enters the target area is variable, but nothing is variable on your way to the target area.

 

Actually, you can be intercepted on the way to the target now on this mission type. In fact, I just flew such a mission today (ground troops cover) with a Moscow Hurricane squadron. We were intercepted on the way to the target by 109s and ended up entangled with both them and a flight of I-16s that was also operating in the area.

Edited December 10, 2020 by LukeFF

[oc2209]

8 hours ago, LukeFF said:

While all of that is mostly true, it's a big step forward from the old mission set, where the only place and time you would be intercepted would be right smack over the target. There was no being intercepted before one's flight reached the target or after leaving the target (which happens a lot now in bomber careers).

 

Hopefully, as time allows, the developers can broaden things so that there is a wider "corridor" where action can take place.

 

For the record, I wasn't complaining. I don't mind the general concept of a small chance of action until you get near the frontline. Your proximity to the frontline should pretty much determine the probability of enemy encounters, especially if you're on a fighter mission (not bomber or bomber escort). This of course wouldn't hold up to historical the German situation in '44 and beyond, with Americans and British routinely invading German airspace by hundreds of miles. I'd argue that early to mid-war Eastern Front careers should have a much lower chance of deep airspace incursions on either side, as neither the Germans nor the Russians had strategic bombers or long-range fighters of any consequence.

 

 

Luke FF said:

"Actually, you can be intercepted on the way to the target now on this mission type. In fact, I just flew such a mission today (ground troops cover) with a Moscow Hurricane squadron. We were intercepted on the way to the target by 109s and ended up entangled with both them and a flight of I-16s that was also operating in the area."

 

I wish this was the case for me much more often. Most of my cover missions entail circling the target zone for approximately 15-20 minutes, only to have the enemy attack occur after that. Sometimes I've actually landed nearby just to not bother circling. Then when the enemy shows up, I take off and meet them.

 

8 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s surprising because I have had many experiences like that. If every career mission went on with nothing unexpected happening it would be a very dull system. This might vary depending on the theater or career.

 

I think one of the variable aspects would be which field you're flying from; if it's in a 'high traffic' area. But yes, it was much more the exception than the rule when something spontaneous occurred in my main career. I flew a lot of sorties in Moscow and Stalingrad (in a 109F-4), a bit fewer in Kuban, and very few in Bodenplatte before my career fatally bugged (this was before the recent patch that might've prevented it). I've done other shorter careers in Bodenplatte, though, as Germans, Americans, and British. I've seen the things you describe: being chased back to my airfield; having my entire flight shot down while they circle slowly with their lights on to land. But these are rarities. Truthfully, I'm glad they don't happen more often, or it'd call greater attention to the friendly AI's general inflexibility. These occasions were fun though, I'm with you on that point. 

 

I've also been intercepted (only once) on a new base transfer flight, where my whole flight is shot down; despite that we weren't in a landing pattern and should have been able to fight back easily. For that reason, I think the AI would need to be improved across the board before frequent fights should occur deep behind friendly lines. For the time being, I'd be perfectly content to have action occur within 20 or so miles of either side of the frontline. Which would, coincidentally, make it easier to implement a waypoint skipping system without having to make it 'smart' enough to disengage when enemies are spotted.

 

Hmm. Getting ahead of myself here, but as part of the difficulty settings, maybe they could set the range of enemy AI incursions into friendly territory? So then some people could fly the full mission lengths and be attacked virtually anywhere along the way, while others could shrink the incursion range down to minimum (frontline only, pretty much), and then use a skip feature to reach the frontline quickly and in one piece.

Edited December 11, 2020 by oc2209

[SharpeXB]

9 hours ago, oc2209 said:

 Getting ahead of myself here, but as part of the difficulty settings, maybe they could set the range of enemy AI incursions into friendly territory? So then some people could fly the full mission lengths and be attacked virtually anywhere along the way, while others could shrink the incursion range down to minimum (frontline only, pretty much), and then use a skip feature to reach the frontline quickly and in one piece.

It rather takes the fun or unexpected out of the career if you can decide or set too many things like whether or where you get attacked. There are only so many things that can be done to make career more approachable in terms of time invested.

Honestly if you choose a short mission and use time acceleration you can make career sorties quite short. Realize you only have to end the mission in the air over friendly lines in order to succeed. I’m not sure how much shorter is worthwhile. Flight sims in general don’t lend themselves well to 15-20 gaming sessions. For that there are Quick Missions but I agree they have limited appeal. 
We are fortunate to have the Career Mode at all since it’s a significant amount of work from 1CGS. I wouldn’t assume any changes to it would be easy. 

[twilson37]

I think as the game grows such a feature may be required. Imagine flights from England to Berlin in a  P51, or flying the vast distances of the Pacific. These mission could take several hours. That being said I think skipping every waypoint may be a bit too condensed, turning missions into less than a minute skipping each waypoint except when I drop my bombs.

 

I really enjoy flying missions and having to look at the terrain to determine where I am. I  enjoy that feeling of being in a giant air battle one minute and alone in the sky the next, and now having to find my way home with nothing but a map and a compass.

 

That being said, I also tend to choose squadrons that are close to the front to avoid long missions because often I simply cannot spend more than 30-45 minutes per mission.

Edited December 11, 2020 by twilson37

[Noisemaker]

21 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Actually, you can be intercepted on the way to the target now on this mission type. In fact, I just flew such a mission today (ground troops cover) with a Moscow Hurricane squadron. We were intercepted on the way to the target by 109s and ended up entangled with both them and a flight of I-16s that was also operating in the area.

Most likely, your flight was set as a waypoint for the enemy flight, and no matter where you flew, you would be intercepted.  This I find, is also unrealistic and makes the simulation too gamey.

[oc2209]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It rather takes the fun or unexpected out of the career if you can decide or set too many things like whether or where you get attacked. There are only so many things that can be done to make career more approachable in terms of time invested.

 

I wouldn’t assume any changes to it would be easy. 

 

The thing about 'fun' is that it's subjective. The question isn't whether the changes would make the game more universally fun, because by that criteria things like easy AI difficulty shouldn't even exist. There are already plenty of difficulty and realism options that don't add anything to the fun of the game, but rather cater to individual player preference. I see the concept of waypoint skipping or adjusting the spawn points of enemy flights in friendly territory to be more of the same. It's simply about customizing the experience to specific needs.

 

As to whether the changes I mentioned would be difficult to implement, I have no idea. I would guess that changing how far the AI ranges from the frontline should be simple. I've already seen planes spawn and despawn within visual range. Just the other day I had the escort fighters of a single(?!) Stuka disappear while it was on its way to attack a ground cover zone I was defending. I had spotted them, announced them over the radio, and they vanished, leaving only the Stuka. So if they can spawn/despawn in the air, I wouldn't think it'd be difficult to make areas where they either can't spawn or will spawn with greater frequency.

 

I'm not proposing a radical change to AI behavior, but simply a modification of spawn point criteria. If people wanted their engagements to be more predictable, they could increase air activity (that is, spawn probability), while decreasing the AI range. To save CPU resources, the enemy AI flights wouldn't be flying all the time, but would spawn as the player flight neared the frontline.

 

If people wanted their engagements to be unpredictable, they could set AI range to max, air activity to max. This would result in being intercepted frequently (once on the way to the target, once on the way back, at most), anywhere. AI range set to max, activity set to low, would keep the wide range but decrease the probability of being intercepted. Et cetera.

 

6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

 I’m not sure how much shorter is worthwhile.

 

15-20 minutes on average would be the goal. Meaning you'd still have to wait a bit, search for the enemy, etc. My average career sortie time was still ~25 minutes, even trying as I did to lower it. Increasing enemy flight spawn frequency would dramatically increase the duration of sorties, even with waypoint skipping. Dogfights on hard AI generally take about 10 minutes at minimum. Assuming you keep enough ammo on you, dogfighting as many as two enemy flights per sortie is still a bare minimum of 20 minutes.

 

Let's remember here that the AI can never be truly bounced. So any engagement with enemy fighters absolutely will result in a long fight (unless of course you flee ASAP).

[SharpeXB]

22 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

15-20 minutes on average would be the goal.

 

15-20 minute missions aren’t really a “career mode” it’s a Quick Mission with medals...

The original BoS Campaign (known as the “Unlock Campaign” because you unlocked aircraft and features similar to arcade games) was designed around 15-20 session gaming with simple action points and simple air start and end points. It was not well received by the community. So we are very fortunate to have the Career Mode as it exists now. It was actually hard, apparently, to justify the time and effort to create it when statistically I’m sure the average buyer plays this game for about 3 hours, shoots up sone stuff and then quits. It took a lot of convincing and a great deal of effort to create the career mode as it is now. This game already had a 15-20 min mode and nobody liked it. 

[sniperton]

16 hours ago, oc2209 said:

To save CPU resources, the enemy AI flights wouldn't be flying all the time, but would spawn as the player flight neared the frontline.

This indeed could free up some CPU resources, but I doubt it could free up enough CPU resources to speed up time acceleration considerably.

 

Don't forget that your AI squadmates (and another flight you're eventually escorting) would still eat up a considerable amount of CPU power just to keep formation and to get from point A to point B, even when no enemy units are spawned/activated nearby.

 

IMO the only real solution would be the implementation of a simplified, resource-light "travelling" AI (similar to what we had in the old title), and the complex flight and combat AI would only kick in when enemies are within activation range. But I guess this would require an overhaul of the game mechanics.

[SharpeXB]

13 hours ago, sniperton said:

IMO the only real solution would be the implementation of a simplified, resource-light "travelling" AI (similar to what we had in the old title), and the complex flight and combat AI would only kick in when enemies are within activation range.

I think something like this has already been done. Optimizing the AI flight models to be simplified when they’re far away from the player.