A New Player Asks

[BlindAsABat]

I have spent thousands of hours on Cliffs of Dover but have now emigrated to BoS, in particular the Bodenplatte map and aeroplanes. Obviously the flight model is different from what I am used to and I expect a long learning curve.  However, as I start the process two matters are driving me nuts and I wonder of some more experienced players could put me on the right track.

 

Firstly, how does on slow an aeroplane down  reasonably quickly an efficiently. Getting from several thousand feet at 300mph down to 1000 feet at 170mph ready for a landing is a routine task that is probably carried out at least once every gaming session.  In CloD a combination of throttle management and slide-slipping gets the job down with the minimum of fuss. However in BoS side-slipping seems to have a very small effect on speed and the throttle even less.  It seems very difficult to lose speed and height simultaneously, at least until one is below 200 mph. I am sure I am just missing something that has a more prominent effect here in BoS but I'll be damned if I can work out what it is.

 

Secondly, how does one stop a Tempest from ground looping after a landing? I don't have this problem with any of the other aeroplanes but after landing and rollout, when the brute is just about ready to stop, I find the Tempest entering a ground loop.  

 

Any advice on either point would be gratefully received.   

[cardboard_killer]

1 hour ago, BlindAsABat said:

n CloD a combination of throttle management and slide-slipping gets the job down with the minimum of fuss. However in BoS side-slipping seems to have a very small effect on speed and the throttle even less.

 

Well, you do the same thing in BoX. Depends on the plane. With the Tempest, I'd open up the radiator to add drag, keep the rpm high with minimal throttle and spiral down to a good altitude/speed, drop landing gear then open flaps. Just takes practice. Any plane with a high stall speed is tougher.

 

As for ground looping, practice is the only answer. The Tempest is one of the easier to manage IMO. Keep RPM high, and don't overdo the breaks and you should be okay. I think the Spit and the Bf-109 are much more difficult . . .

[BlindAsABat]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

 

Continual practice has enabled me to make progress on the speed issue but ground looping in the Tempest remains a serious source of frustration.  Last evening I must have made 40+ landings (I did little else) and ground looped on every one of them - even the one which I cocked up, bent my propeller and so went down the runway without any power at all.  With the P51, P38, Spit IX I don't have this problem (the P47 i haven't tried yet), just the Tempest.

 

This problem is doubly annoying as I am trying to choose my permanent 'plane - the type I will really get to know and fly, in single & multiplayer, 99% of the time - and the Tempest is the leader of the pack for me.  It is a Hawker (in Clod the Hurricane was my aeroplane of choice), flies like a dream and I have to love those 4 20mm cannon, one burst from which can destroy any enemy aeroplane out there, not just shoot down but destroy.

 

I better get on with my practice otherwise I am going to end up flying a P38.

[cardboard_killer]

I'm kind of scratching my head as I ground loop often in spits and Bf-109s, but almost never in a tempest. I do love the plane though, for the reasons you give.

[kestrel79]

Make sure once you land to pull your stick back, this should help your plane "stick" to the ground more and put pressure on the tailwheel and ground loop less, along with little jabs of the brake and throttle to keep it straight.

[BlindAsABat]

Thanks, Kestrel, that is what I am trying to do - plenty of back pressure and cadence breaking - but I am obviously not getting it right.  In this afternoon's practice sessions I kept an eye on the speedometer as I was rolling out.  The ground loop started as I decelerated though the low thirties having touched down at about 100mph.  So quite a long straight rollout then as I slow right down the merry-go-round starts.

 

It really is driving me up the wall.

 

This evening I think I'll take up the P38 just to get some enjoyable flying unmarred by stupid landings.  I would give the Mustang more of a try but having spent thousands of hours flying 'planes armed with just rifle calibre weapons I am loathe to give up on cannons. I have never liked the Spit, from my earliest days in CloD, very pretty but fragile and bouncy - a ladies aeroplane.

[JimTM]

9 minutes ago, BlindAsABat said:

Thanks, Kestrel, that is what I am trying to do - plenty of back pressure and cadence breaking - but I am obviously not getting it right.  In this afternoon's practice sessions I kept an eye on the speedometer as I was rolling out.  The ground loop started as I decelerated though the low thirties having touched down at about 100mph.  So quite a long straight rollout then as I slow right down the merry-go-round starts.

...

 

Sometimes, you need to stay on the brake a little longer if you feel like the plane is getting away from you. Just be sure to get off the brake the instant the ground loop threat lessens and go back to short stabs on the brake.

[Sandhill]

Having never flown it, I thought I'd give landings a try, and I think that something is wrong with the ground handling of the Tempest.  Just simple taxiing is quite a challenge.  I too did a series of baffling ground loops, no success in my first half dozen attempts.  Finally, stealing a tip from Requiem (just not neutralizing after TO, actually) I got to where I was consistently landing with full left rudder trim, at the slowest speed I could touch the runway, and immediately applying full brakes, I suppose getting away with stopping before anything bad could happen.  I'm kind of stuck at that point, though, as attempting to taxi is tedious at best.  No way I'd make that a favorite aircraft, even though it seems lovely in every other phase.

[cardboard_killer]

I just landed and did a recording of the landing (see attached) Not sure if it will help, but here's my proceedure with the Tempest: I came in about 150-60mph. I dropped landing gear about twenty seconds into the video (I had the HUD turned on, but it doesn't record? you can hear the gear dropping though). I dropped gear going too fast so got some buffetng. Once I drop gear, I drop flaps about 20-30%, too. I came in around 110-20mph, too fast, so bounced on landing. While approaching, just before bounce, I'm dropping flaps as fast as I can. Once down, I keep the stick back and apply breaks without rudder. I apply breaks pretty fast and hold them down on the tempest. I usually don't have to do much with the rudder/differential breaking until I come under 50mph. Corrections are very short and small.

 

Power: I keep full RPM throughout landing, with minimal throttle, which I cut completely upon final landing.

 

I'm still scratching my head a bit as I ground loop often on everything Luftwaffe, and often on the Spitfire and La-5. Could it be my use of flaps or RPM?

freeflight.2020-12-09_20-41-33_00.zip

Edited December 10, 2020 by cardboard_killer

[No.85_Camm]

I don't have a problem with ground looping in the Tempest at all.

 

I start slowing down about 15 kliks out and I do that by reducing my RPM down to about 10-15% and 20 degrees of flap....getting my speed down to about 130mph. As soon as my wheels touch the ground, my rpm is reduced to 0. Then it's just a matter of using the brake and rudder. (I also sideslip at times....no problem).

 

Did you try what I suggested (Blind as a Bat)?

 

If you could come on the server when I am on, perhaps I could help you more!!

[cardboard_killer]

12 hours ago, Sandhill said:

No way I'd make that a favorite aircraft, even though it seems lovely in every other phase.

 

It is lovely. It's almost as maneuverable as the Spit, but has more engine power, as well as the best fire power of any Allied plane. If hit at convergence, Axis planes disintegrate under those four Mark V Hispano cannon. And, unlike so many cannon armed Allied a/c, they carry a good amount of ammo for the cannons. Frankly, it's so good it must be overrated.

[Props]

Though I have not had a problem with ground looping in the Tempest, I was having a lot of it in the Spit and occasionally in several other aircraft. It was frustrating, but I figured it was mostly due to my rudder inputs, especially on my cheap Thrustmaster TRFP pedals which had to be calibrated every time I started IL2 GB, deadzoned and toned down to the max as they were overly sensitive and finicky. I just got a new set of MFG Crosswinds, smooth as silk, and the difference is night and day! No more problems, unless my plane is all shot up and the rudder is not doing much good;-), then I have to be very careful with the brakes. I don't know if this applies to you as I don't know what pedals you use or how they're setup just mentioning it as something to consider.

 

As far as landing speeds go are you familiar with combat approach landing? I learned it way back in IL2 '46 from a good pilot and it comes in really handy, especially if you're coming in from a deadstick long glide return from the front and need to keep some speed to make the field. You carry higher speed into the approach (not mach numbers obviously), level off about 500' and as you cross the threshold chop power, and bank hard left, climbing a bit, to come around for the landing. You drop gear and flaps while you hold a steady bank, say about 45 degrees or more like a hard combat turn to return to the threshold and thus kill all your speed. It takes a little practice but it works well and when you get it down pat you settle onto the tarmac at about your proper landing speed. This was used by the USAF a bunch in the western theater late in the war when the airfields were close to the front, you can see it being used by 4 ship flights coming in where they each break sequentially providing element separation and some space for landing (1st pilot lands long, 2nd a little less etc.) in a lot of old war footage. This was intended to get everyone down quickly and into the re-arming areas or revetments, or whatever, quickly for quick turnaround and security in case of following enemy fighters etc. I usually do a standard pattern setup and approach 'cause it gives me plenty of time to kill speed and setup for final, but I still use the combat approach a lot for fun or when things are dicey. It also helped me prepare for good carrier approaches when I was flying IL2 '46 Pacific missions back in the day, especially with the F4U Corsair. Just more food for thought on those hot approaches. S!

[=BES=Senor_Jefe]

Try messing with your rudder curves as this will help when slowing after landing.  Also remember the brake system makes a touchy rudder even worse during braking.  I have reduced sensitivity in the first 40% travel and I find i don't need to use more than that to keep coordinated in flight.

[BlindAsABat]

My thanks to those who  have offered help, but I sill can't get a Tempest to rollout without ground looping.  I have, I think, spent enough time on this and for me the game is over. 

[Thad]

On 12/8/2020 at 7:13 AM, cardboard_killer said:

I'm kind of scratching my head as I ground loop often in spits and Bf-109s, but almost never in a tempest. I do love the plane though, for the reasons you give.

 

Interesting. One having a looping problem... another not. Perhaps is isn't a plane problem but a pilot problem.

 

But, then again, it could be the result of a overly sensitive controller setup for the looper.

 

I suggest you Report the problem to the developers for a possible bug fix. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Thad

[Krasp28]

This might be a dumb point but I figured it's worth adding since I seem to find the tempest pretty easy to handle as others have said - make sure you're using the proper controls for differential braking. The Tempest (as well as the spit, and some of the  Russian types off the top of my head) don't have separate toe brakes for left and right. you've got one brake lever and then you proportion the brake left or right with the rudder axis, not toe brakes. 

 

I find it pretty reliable to come to a stop in the tempest by going full back stick and full brake once the plane is committed to the ground and then slight rudder adjustments left/right as needed to catch any drifting tendency. It might also be worth noting that if it does start to get away from you, applying full aileron against the loop will help keep the wings level in the loop, reducing the tendency for a prop strike or wing strike. 

Edited December 15, 2020 by Krasp28

[cardboard_killer]

On 12/13/2020 at 11:14 AM, BlindAsABat said:

My thanks to those who  have offered help, but I sill can't get a Tempest to rollout without ground looping.  I have, I think, spent enough time on this and for me the game is over. 

 

I do hope you stick with the game, even if you stay out of planes that ground loop easily. I find all the Yaks to be very easy as long as you don't release the tail wheel lock. The trikes are a breeze, including the A-20. I don't fly the LW much but I think once you get the hang of the 190's tail wheel lock, it's not hard to handle.  The worst, IMO, are the Bf-109s, the Spits, the La-5, with most of the rest in between.

 

I also don't stress much about ground looping. Any landing I can imaginary walk away from is a good landing :]