An alternative (realistic) system for counting downed aircraft

[Kur12]

The game has a very player-loyal system for counting downed aircraft - as much as you declare, they will write down as much to you. In real life, everything was much tougher - it was necessary not only to shoot down the plane, but also witnesses were needed.
Patrick, is it possible, in principle, to track by logs who was nearby at the time of the shooting down? If possible, in addition to the existing one, an alternative (realistic) system of counting aerial victories is also proposed (for fans of hard realism).

 

In the combat report, there will be no need to indicate claims for victories, the program itself will report: "You shot down such and such an aircraft, such and such witnesses confirm."
And to confirm the shot down, 2 conditions must be met:
1. The player's plane at the time of the destruction of the enemy plane must be no more than 3 km from the downed plane (i.e., options are immediately cut off when the damaged plane flew a large
distance and fell after some time far, far from the place of the battle).
2. The witness at the time of destruction must also be no further than 3 km. A witness can be:
a) another plane (if this plane itself was later shot down, and the pilot was killed or captured, then such a witness is not counted).
b) ground troops
c) ground object (city, village, etc.)
d) bridge (there is always a guard on the bridge, they will confirm the fact of victory)
e) front line (there are always soldiers in the trenches, they will confirm the fact of victory)
f) railway (repairmen and linemen - they may or may not be on this site) - here the probability of confirmation is 50% by the random number generator
g) road (random passers-by) - here the probability of confirmation is 10% by a random number generator

 

Is it possible to do this?

Edited November 21, 2020 by Kur12

[Yogiflight]

At least on german side it was also counted, if the pilot told what hits and where at the enemy aircraft and at which position it crashed, so either if on german side, ground troops could affirm the kill or, if on enemy side recon aircrafts could do. I don't know about kills over water, though.

[Kur12]

1 час назад, Yogiflight сказал:

if on enemy side recon aircrafts could do.

Sending a recon plane into enemy territory is risking a recon. If the plane was shot down over enemy territory and there were no other friendly planes nearby, I suggest ignoring such a victory.

[Yogiflight]

33 minutes ago, Kur12 said:

Sending a recon plane into enemy territory is risking a recon. If the plane was shot down over enemy territory and there were no other friendly planes nearby, I suggest ignoring such a victory.

I wouldn't guess they were sent only for that purpose, but maybe get a customized flying route.

One thing I forgot to mention, the pilots also had to look for the signs and letters/numbers on the killed aircraft. I am not sure if this was also for confirmation of kills or more for seeing which enemy unit took part, to get a better idea of the enemy forces based in that area.

[Kur12]

2 часа назад, Yogiflight сказал:

I wouldn't guess they were sent only for that purpose, but maybe get a customized flying route.

One thing I forgot to mention, the pilots also had to look for the signs and letters/numbers on the killed aircraft. I am not sure if this was also for confirmation of kills or more for seeing which enemy unit took part, to get a better idea of the enemy forces based in that area.

Any flight (even over your own territory) is a risk, you can meet enemy fighters. And you can't see small details on the ground from the air.
Even ground search parties will not help. If there were intense battles in this place (including in previous years), then there may be a lot of fragments of different aircraft, and it is not clear whether these are the wreckage of the same plane or others.

Therefore, I propose, if there is no direct witness of the fall, do not count the victory.

Photo-machine guns were also not on all planes, and the photo-machine gun only showed the fact of a hit, but did not show what happened later.

[PatrickAWlson]

First, I appreciate the ideas.  In this case I cannot or do not wish to act on them precisely as laid out.  One thing that makes me not too anxious to take this on is that you can already do everything you laid out: just don't claim kills that you feel would be denied.  You don't need PWCG to enforce it.

 

Some of the proposal is based on assumptions that are not true. 

1. The idea that the logs are correct.  They are not.  You will be credited with three victories by the game's mission summary but in that frequently does not carry over to the logs. 

2. The idea that the logs tell me where other planes are.  They do not.

 

The claims system is not going away.  It is a critical part of mitigating an incomplete log system.  The claims system is also something that a lot of people (including myself) enjoy having.  

 

As it is today PWCG gives players tremendous flexibility in terms of how they are awarded victories.  Some like to get exactly what the in game mission summary gives them.  Others like to claim only what they feel they should get.  Some might overclaim because they know they can.  The claims system is central to that.  I am not going to take away flexibility in favor of one specific play style.

 

Am I missing something?  Couldn't you just choose not to claim the kill?

[Eisenfaustus]

Furthermore as rigid as different claim systems might have been - allies and Germans overclaimed roughly 3:1. Assuming it was done in good faith still your brethren in arms would have a strong incentive to back your claims. 
 

I do as Patrick suggested: I claim what I would have claimed in real life: Burst on target, enemy spinning down into the clouds? I claim even though he might recover - if he dives away in controlled flight I don’t claim even though the game might give me a kill when goes down due to combat damage a little later...

[WM_KMS]

I'd be happy if it just gave me the kills I made and reported, I got denied 4 La5FN kills in one mission when I was clearly the killer

[vonGraf]

The 10 and 12 kills I have were all correctly claimed by me and recognized by PWCG.

Some of them I had almost forgotten or wasn't aware anymore the next day when I had the time to do the debriefings and new missions for my two campaigns.

Do you have to claim a victory to get it counted by PWCG? I'm not sure at the moment.

Edited November 22, 2020 by vonGraf

[PatrickAWlson]

18 hours ago, WM_KMS said:

I'd be happy if it just gave me the kills I made and reported, I got denied 4 La5FN kills in one mission when I was clearly the killer

 

That's what the report error button is for.  I can't guess what went wrong, but if you press report error it will package up your campaign and the mission logs, allowing me to recreate the issue.  In the case of failure to confirm victories, telling me what you claimed would also help.

 

[WM_KMS]

38 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

That's what the report error button is for.  I can't guess what went wrong, but if you press report error it will package up your campaign and the mission logs, allowing me to recreate the issue.  In the case of failure to confirm victories, telling me what you claimed would also help.

 

Good to know, btw still having AI issues when taking off in Hurricanes at Davydovskiya, if I have 1 wingman he does a couple of circles and finally takes off (unless he gets tangled in the windsock). If I have multiple units in my flight they spin around and crash into each other then mostly despawn, the game has had a history of AI behavior like this so I don't think it's your campaign causing it, 18/1/1943 is the campaign date with the 651st at this AF