Has the AI stopped being aggressive?

[PatrickAWlson]

As my fellow mission makers know our ability to influence AI actions is limited.  Pretty much waypoint priority and that's it.

 

As of the last release I am getting complaints that friendly AI (flight mates to the human pilot) are not acting aggressively.  I wanted to post that here to see if the wider audience is seeing this.  I would also like reports that counter this perception. 

 

I have only flown a couple of  missions since the latest release.  One was a good fur ball where I am afraid I was not paying enough attention to the actions of my AI wing mates.  I did see at least two enemy aircraft lawn dart for no apparently good reason, but can't say much about my fellow pilots actions.  In the second we had a clean look at four unescorted IL2s and my wing mates were not aggressive.  Mission zipped and attached.  

 

This thread was started in the PWCG section and I am asking people to post missions that exhibit this behavior.

 

Zip deleted as it was not the right mission.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by PatrickAWlson

[Noisemaker]

I noticed several wingmen not drop bombs or launch rockets during a couple of missions today.  I also watched as my wingman flew straight and level as a 109 lined up on his tail to shoot him down, despite repeated commands to "engage fighters" and "do as I do".

[Lusekofte]

In qmb in different maps ju 87 drop from the skies into ground when attacking them

[PatrickAWlson]

This is a bit different from most reports.  In this case it is the enemy who is passive and not my flight mates.  I encounter Hurricanes as I approach the front lines.  They fly as though they are on an attack mission.  They are not - WP priorities are zero for all WPs.  The Hurricanes take some evasive action but are not at all aggressive.  In this mission my AI flight mate attacked just fine.

 

If any mission makers can see anything wrong it would be appreciated.  I believe that this behavior is new as of the most recent release.

 

P.S.  In the OP I had posted the wrong zip.  I have since deleted it.

 

Patrik Schorner 1942-07-30.zip

Edited November 8, 2020 by PatrickAWlson

[Ram399]

I have noticed an overall decrease in AI aggression over the past few months.
Though I have not yet flown very many missions in the most recent update, starting around July there seem to have been some changes made to the AI's decision making regarding targets with the intention of making them more mission oriented I believe.

The most prominent of these changes I have found is that should you encounter enemy aircraft outside the coverage circle on a river crossing/ground troops cover mission, your AI wingmen will abjectly refuse to engage those aircraft regardless of any orders you issue.

Similarly, on intercept missions once the target flight is driven off or leaves the area around the interception waypoint, your AI wingmen will refuse to pursue them.

The most glaring problem with this system is that, should enemy fighters be encountered away from any mission objectives, your AI wingmen will still refuse to engage even when the enemy fighters attack them.  This had catastrophic results when, after a quiet escort mission in Kuban, I led a flight back to the front to patrol the area over Krymskaya and suddenly found myself with 5 pacifist pilots going up against a swarm of hostile fighters.

[Props]

I too have noticed a change in AI, but mostly with enemy AI. I always set them to Ace and routinely run, with a wingman, 2 vs 4 as I working up on my situational awareness and with all the planes in our arsenal before going online where I'll probably get my ass whupped anyway for a while;-). But since the last update especially I've noticed that the enemy wingmen may sometimes extend and leave the fight when I've damaged them or the numbers turn in our favor. I don't mind this change as this would be smart tactical moves on the part of any pilot who wants to live and fight another day and adds some realism to the sim IMHO. It is a welcome change from when I used to get chased for 15 minutes by some 109 AI that's spewing fuel and coolant the whole time, all the way back to my airfield because I'm out of ammo and always try to bring the aircraft home, I have to go for the maneuvering kill in an attempt to break free if they catch up after an extension on my part. Never mind that the damaged 109 should have seized up long before that, it's just not normal. My single AI wingman seems to still be aggressive and stupid even though it does help to keep some of the enemy occupied so I can focus on the ones that come after me, but I have noticed that if I use 2-3 wingmen that changes and they're kind of useless even when I order them to attack nearest enemy aircraft.

 

Just noting that I have noticed some AI changes not mentioned in the Update notes and it's not all bad.

 

Love the new g modeling and appreciate all the Dev team has been doing in spite of covid and the less than supportive voices found in the community at times! Keep on Truckin'!

[Varibraun]

2 hours ago, Ram399 said:

your AI wingmen will abjectly refuse to engage those aircraft regardless of any orders you issue.

 

This definitely describes what I have been seeing occasionally lately.  I didn't realize it went back that far though, but I was grounded for several weeks starting in August.  I also wonder if it is more noticeable to me since I have been back a couple of weeks ago because of the GREAT work that has been done on the individual dogfighting A/I.  Thank you Devs! 

 

The more deadly enemy AI can of course can lead to it being more "problematic" if your own guys won't engage under certain circumstances.

[Zeev]

Played couple of Quick Mission Builder and all of them ended very boring, different than in previous versions.
My friendly wingmen disappear quickly, and one time I have noticed that one of my wingmen rushed towards home while ALL enemy BF109 followed him, ignoring me and other my wingmen that also rushed after BF109. My wingmen and I were flying Hurricane.

[Retrofly]

Guys to test properly you should run some missions with tacview and post the records. I will try and do this later, I hadn't noticed anything being particularly passive.

Actually I found the AI to be more responsive especially when going defensive.

[Voxman]

Yesterday I was continuing a Spit career in the Rhineland map.  It was a armoured column attack.  I had a full loadout, along with the squad.  Coming in at our 1 O'clock were three FW190s.  I dropped bombs to provide fighter cover, but my squad went on their way to  continue the mission.  The three FWs locked in on me and they were relentless.  Meanwhile the rest of the squad dropped bombs...some on target some not, and continued on with a strafing run...totally ignoring my twist and turn fight with the FWs, trying to find solution with bursts, before I was jumped on again with another FW.  Meanwhile the squad is circling in nice formation and doing some attacking at the column, but mostly shooting at the trees, or the berms on the road.   After taking down two  FWs, I'd reached the end of my ammo...looking around I see that the squad flew off back to base.  I could weep.  I managed to get the third FW with whatever I had left of .50s and when I flew back to base I was ready to ram, or take down the squad by landing in the middle of the field and preventing them from landing...bast*rds. 

AI is really unpredictable as in a subsequent mission, they dropped their salvo, and joined in the fight.

[HeavyDman]

I've noticed that both friendly AI and enemy AI behaviour is really poor. Friendly AI in my own flight won't engage enemy planes, and enemy AI often only comes after me and will fly past (or through) an entire flight of other targets (who completely ignore the enemy plane as well), just to shoot at me. I've seen this in BoS, Kuban and Bodenplatte. Is there something I need to change on my set up etc? 

[istari6]

I've seen this behavior in Flying Circus since August.  See following post: 

 

 

"Pat,

 

Many thanks for creating PWCG for Flying Circus!  My friends and I have been using your BoX version for some great campaigns together in co-op.  Now diving into SP with Flying Circus.  

 

I'm on my 4th mission with No.24 Sqn, and the last three missions have all had the same pattern.  We get jumped by German aircraft, which then all focus on me (the leader).  Meanwhile, my S.E.5a wingmen circle about and don't engage.   The result is that I'm often effectively outnumbered 5:1, which makes for an extremely difficult and unrealistic battle. 

 

Is there something I need to do for friendly AI to engage enemy AI?  I've tried using Pilot hand signals and Flight Orders, but nothing I do will get my wingmen to fight.  I've also seen them flying straight and level with Germans behind them until they're shot down.

 

Another donation made to your account BTW as a thank you for this great program."

 

There ultimately wasn't a solution in that thread, so I stopped the Flying Circus campaign until the AI issue could be resolved.  I don't have the mission files unfortunately, but this was repeated behavior across multiple missions.

Edited November 8, 2020 by istari6

[PatrickAWlson]

Please post missions.  Nobody can accomplish anything with just saying this is so.  If this is going to be taken up people need examples to analyze.

[40plus]

Quite the opposite to what's being reported here but I found at least one AI who was hell bent on shooting my hurricane down. QMB, 1V1, enemy 109E vs me carrying as many 303s as I could in a hurricane.

 

In a head on approach he started unloading at me from 3.5km.

[Voidhunger]

Enemy AI is not aggressive and never was. Even outnumbered against ace AI its too easy and ridiculously easy in FC.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Voidhunger

[PatrickAWlson]

7 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

Enemy AI is not aggressive and never was. Even outnumbered against ace AI its too easy and ridiculously easy in FC.

 

A general comment about AI sucks is not really what I was trying to get at.  To some there seemed to be a real difference in AI behavior from last release to this one.  I am asking for evidence to back that up or refute it.

 

Based on my own half dozen or so flights it does seem that the AI can be less aggressive than it was previously, but not always - not even usually.  What I am seeing are some cases where the AI goes passive, like it is flying towards a medium priority WP.  it will evade eventually, but not much more than that.  

 

The mission posted in the fourth post does demonstrate this )at least it did when I flew it).  The Hurricanes are flying low priority WPs but do not really seek to engage.  I have also seen the same in QMB where the AI suddenly stops fighting.  

[Jade_Monkey]

Enemy AI is definitely more aggressive, I don't have many observations on friendly AI but I assume they would use the same logic once they start an engagement.

[Voidhunger]

40 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

A general comment about AI sucks is not really what I was trying to get at.  To some there seemed to be a real difference in AI behavior from last release to this one.  I am asking for evidence to back that up or refute it.

 

Based on my own half dozen or so flights it does seem that the AI can be less aggressive than it was previously, but not always - not even usually.  What I am seeing are some cases where the AI goes passive, like it is flying towards a medium priority WP.  it will evade eventually, but not much more than that.  

 

The mission posted in the fourth post does demonstrate this )at least it did when I flew it).  The Hurricanes are flying low priority WPs but do not really seek to engage.  I have also seen the same in QMB where the AI suddenly stops fighting.  

 

Ok I didnt experience any changes in aggressivenes of the enemy or allied AI

[LukeFF]

One definite change I have seen is the AI isn't as aggressive about following you all the way back to home base. I had a flight last night where a 109 made one attack on my Il-2 and then headed for home. Of course, there's always the possibility he was out of ammo, but in any case it was nice to see him turn away, especially since by that point we were over the Soviet side of the lines.

 

Another nice new thing: when the AI runs out of ammo (at least on ground attack missions), it'll break off and return to the nearest airfield, instead of milling around waiting to be shot down. 

[Avimimus]

AI should often break off after a single pass... and sometimes not attack at all... I've always wanted much more variety in AI aggression (as I mention the dynamic campaign designer Starshoy used to say the original Il-2 AI was too aggressive which led to excessive attrition... so it has been discussed for years). It'd be great to have a 'historical aggression' or 'historical disengagement' difficulty option!

 

However, if the AI is intended by the devs to be super aggressive - and isn't... then that might be a bug?

[Yogiflight]

7 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Another nice new thing: when the AI runs out of ammo (at least on ground attack missions)

I also observed that behaviour in airfights.

7 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

it'll break off and return to the nearest airfield,

The question is, why the nearest airfield and not the home base. If the player does this in the game's career mode, his aircraft will count as lost.

[PatrickAWlson]

One positive (there are more than one but I am really liking this one) - My FW190 campaign is fun to fly again.  No wingman lawn darts in several missions.  In my last mission I scored one and my wing mates got four more.  Poor FW Kohlhase got his first two in a single mission but was seriously wounded. He received the IC 2nd Class and a promotion to Lt but has been relegated to desk duties due to injury.

 

I have FW190 missions set to 80/20 fighter ground.  Really enjoying the mix.  Flew a ground attack with 4x 50 kg bombs to attack soft targets.  Missed a row of artillery but ended up with 3 air to air as the area was seriously active. 

 

I have also figured out the secret of aiming in the 190 with VR ... slouch way down and to the right, like head almost pressed against the side of the canopy and eyeballs barely above the panel.  Then the gunsight aligns.

Edited November 9, 2020 by PatrickAWlson

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

The question is, why the nearest airfield and not the home base. If the player does this in the game's career mode, his aircraft will count as lost.

 

It's actually the nearest activated airfield in career mode missions, which typically means the airfield the fighter escorts took off from.

[Sybreed]

I don't want to detail the thread, but did they fix the AI dropping bombs on AA and firing guns on tanks?

[Yogiflight]

8 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

It's actually the nearest activated airfield in career mode missions, which typically means the airfield the fighter escorts took off from.

If the action is near to the front airfield of the fighter escort, then yes, but this is not the AI, landing on its airfield, but the mission design, placing the action near to their airfield. AI out of ammo or seriously damaged will always land at the closest friendly airfield, it has nothing to do with 'it is their base'. I saw them very often land at any airfield closest to the fighting, in career mode and PWCG. AI only looks for the closest one to land.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Yogiflight

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Since the G load was added to AI I noticed degradation of the AI aggressiveness. International or just after effects I really don't know.

[jeanba]

I noticed a loss of agressiveness for the AI 109s, whether in scripted campaign, career or in PWCG.

But otherwise, I did not noticed it for other aircraft (and especially FW190 who recently costed me two of my best pilots)

[blitze]

Found AI was not too poor in Air to Ground attacking but Friendly AI could make me weep in Air to Air engagements.

 

Quite poor results in engaging the enemy and there was an issue of AI firing from too far away.  Not sure how it pertains to AI levels in relation to Career and scripted missions.  QMB, well AI has always been at a loss but I think it performs better outside of QMB then in it.  I always see QMB more as a means for target practice and getting to know an airplane than anything else.

[Voidhunger]

I dont know about recent changes to AI not following you, but if you are fast enough or you climb better enemy AI will stop following you. It was always there.

 

Anyway it seems to me that in some aicraft like tempest, AI is definitely more aggressive (ace difficulty) It was pleasant surprise, because after a long time I was shot down. I need to test more and im taking my words from previous post back.??

[Retrofly]

In quick missions the AI are aggressive, but I guess thats not what you are asking for Pat. I dont know how the AI behave differently between mission and quick mission I guess the issue could be the phases of a pilots state e.g takeoff, cruise, attack, defend. Maybe they get stuck in the cruise phase?

 

Here's 8 minutes of an 8v8 AI Furball in quick mission. Some things I noticed:

 

4 planes destroyed, 3 were from collisions, just 1 from guns

AI fired 103 times in totoal

AI scored hits 11 times in total.

 

AI seem to fire from a long way back, very often see them firing lead shots from unrealistic distances which probably explains lack of hits/kills.

 

They were all on ACE AI, all planes 100% fuel.

[grcurmudgeon]

I don't have missions, I'll try to save one off the next time I come across this. But I've definitely seen these types of issues that seem to be more about "when will the AI engage an enemy" than "how does the AI fight an enemy once engaged". Some examples that I've seen, some of which have also been mentioned:

• Friendly AI is slow to react to closing enemy flights - you're flying along on to reach your mission waypoint or returning to base from a completed mission and you notice an enemy flight inbound, in this case usually from somewhere in the rear (if they come at you head-on it turns into a fur ball real quick). You keep an eye on them waiting for your flight to react, and they keep blindly cruising on. Finally the enemy flight cross some magical line between 2 and 3km and your flight finally reacts, but now the enemy is in a very advantageous position and it's a difficult fight. 
• Neither flight reacts to each other - I don't know that this is an issue, maybe both flights have their own objectives and it's good that they follow them, but this leads to more missions in Career mode these days without any dogfighting. You have a ground attack mission, and on the way you spot a flight of enemy doing their own thing. Neither reacts to the other, you drop bombs on target, congratulating yourselves for slipping past the enemy. Then flying home see another enemy flight. Again, no one reacts. It certainly feels like on the way home with a full load of ammo after dropping bombs my flight might want to engage the enemy, but they just keep on cruising, and I'm not good enough to take them all on by myself.
• On a related note I had a similar mission where I was trailing my flight a bit on the way to a ground target when we encountered a flight to one side headed the other way, diagonally cutting across behind my flight's path. I was just far enough behind my flight that I slipped into some sort of threat bubble as the enemy ganged up on me, and I made a silly mistake and crashed. Reflew the mission, kept up with my team, and the enemy flight quietly left us alone this time.
• Flight won't help you if you get into trouble - in that case no one from my flight came back to help when I got in trouble behind them. I've also had issues where on a ground attack mission I fly different attack tracks, and will end up trying to defend myself against enemy fighters that come into engage because I've tripped their bubble or because I don't want to give them the advantage. My flight will finish their attack, then fly home, leaving me alone to extricate myself from the mess I got into.
• Escorts slow to react - this one is a bit weird because some of the behavior is smart. If we're escorting bombers and enemy fighters dive in, our goal is to drive them off, not shoot them down, so I'm okay with some of my flight hanging with the bombers or returning to escort once an enemy has been driven away. But I've watched other members of my flight happily doing lazy turns in the air above the bombers while one or two interceptors get away from those of us engaging and make a pass on the bombers. Those escorts seem to wait until the interceptors are doing a pass and actively shooting at the bombers before they dive down to engage.

In a lot of these cases there seems to be a bubble of some sort, the magical 2-3km line I mention above, that causes friendlies to decide to engage when they have some other mission. In some cases this works out great, you slip by and continue on your mission, but it doesn't account for factors such as the course and closing speed of enemy flights or a friendly who is not tucked in tight to the formation getting bounced. And it's compounded by the lack of radio commands mentioned on other threads - you have no way to call for help or warn the flight leader of the inbounds to adjust their response.

 

If the AI was better at deciding which enemy flights constituted a threat so they could react quicker, and was more willing to help an engaged friendly, much of this would clear up. Or if I was given fewer unescorted ground attack missions in Career mode (one of the benefits of PWCG) it might be less of an issue.

[Boogdud]

I've noticed that in all of my ground missions (P47 career) the friendly AI will only use rockets and never drop bombs no matter what the target.  They make a first pass, fire rockets, then make several passes sometimes just firing guns (with 3 bombs still hooked).  Then after several passes when enemy fighters show up, they engage the fighters with 3 bombs attached.  I guess they thought being a jug dogfighting at 1000ft wasn't enough of a disadvantage.

[-DED-Rapidus]

13 hours ago, Boogdud said:

I've noticed that in all of my ground missions (P47 career) the friendly AI will only use rockets and never drop bombs no matter what the target.  They make a first pass, fire rockets, then make several passes sometimes just firing guns (with 3 bombs still hooked).  Then after several passes when enemy fighters show up, they engage the fighters with 3 bombs attached.  I guess they thought being a jug dogfighting at 1000ft wasn't enough of a disadvantage.

Due to the fact that P-47s don't drop bombs after a missile attack, this is a bug, please provide a mission next time or track.

 

Thank you to all the other participants of the discussion for their opinion, now I need a generalized opinion on the points consolidated by the entire community-what exactly does not suit the behavior of our AI (I specifically moved the topic from the General discussion).

[grcurmudgeon]

On 11/7/2020 at 7:04 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

This is a bit different from most reports.  In this case it is the enemy who is passive and not my flight mates.  I encounter Hurricanes as I approach the front lines.  They fly as though they are on an attack mission.  They are not - WP priorities are zero for all WPs.  The Hurricanes take some evasive action but are not at all aggressive.  In this mission my AI flight mate attacked just fine.

 

If any mission makers can see anything wrong it would be appreciated.  I believe that this behavior is new as of the most recent release.

 

P.S.  In the OP I had posted the wrong zip.  I have since deleted it.

 

Patrik Schorner 1942-07-30.zip 648 kB · 0 downloads

I would say this is a good summary and place to start - the main point is "AI pilots/flights seem to ignore likely enemy threats that players feel they should be engaging". I gave other general examples in my post 2 up, but Patrick (who started this) has a mission that shows the issue.

[Varibraun]

5 hours ago, -DED-Rapidus said:

Thank you to all the other participants of the discussion for their opinion, now I need a generalized opinion on the points consolidated by the entire community-what exactly does not suit the behavior of our AI (I specifically moved the topic from the General discussion).

 

First I want to say, thank you for taking a look at this and that the work on the AI over these past few updates has been fantastic.  The individual dogfighting behavior has become so much better over these past few months. 

 

Regarding the issues I outlined with friendly AI refusing to engage, please see my post below.  I was also able to Zip up the 6 minute track I referenced and sent it to you directly via PM - I hope it helps.  Thanks again to you and the whole team for all the hard work during very difficult times to produce an amazing product.  

 

[Livai]

On 11/10/2020 at 10:14 AM, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Since the G load was added to AI I noticed degradation of the AI aggressiveness. International or just after effects I really don't know.

 

I noticed a degradation of the Turret Gunner Ai in Bombers. Before the patch the Turrets always damaged my plane doing that attack but now not. I can do this attack without any damage again and again.

[Noisemaker]

Mission file from my latest in Kuban.  Enemy fighters follwed me back to base, friendly AI, well thank god for AAA.

_gen.rar

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

30 minutes ago, Livai said:

 

I noticed a degradation of the Turret Gunner Ai in Bombers. Before the patch the Turrets always damaged my plane doing that attack but now not. I can do this attack without any damage again and again.

If gunners are under G load that woud be nice. 

[Retrofly]

I have found the gunners are on the most part still the same, very accurate and always shooting.

 

I tested 2 career missions and both had multiple engagements with different groups of planes, did not see an AI ignoring flights. I never knew how much was going on until i started checking TrackIR, now I can see multiple fur-balls happening at once all over the map. Very cool.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Retrofly

[Ram399]

On 11/11/2020 at 4:35 AM, -DED-Rapidus said:

what exactly does not suit the behavior of our AI

 

On 11/10/2020 at 11:27 AM, Retrofly said:

AI seem to fire from a long way back, very often see them firing lead shots from unrealistic distances which probably explains lack of hits/kills.

Having flown for some hours in the most recent update now I can definitely corroborate this.

While in the 5 or so career missions I have flown the AI has been successful in routinely engaging enemy contacts, it seems as if their gunnery skills as a whole have taken a step backwards from 4.501- with pilots consistently undershooting targets in a slight bank and even missing straight and level from 6 O' Clock.

As a result I've been doing a bit of testing in quick missions to pin down some of the gunnery changes, and the results are pretty consistent. 

I setup a mission with an Ace Bf-109 G4 AI starting on the 6 of a Novice La-5 ser.8 and repeated it several times at various convergence differences.
In every instance, the La-5 immediately broke into a sharp turn and the 109 turned in to pursue it, opening fire at various ranges (in some cases over a kilometer) and angles yet undershooting every time.

The La-5 would then consistently choose not to engage the 109 pursuing it however and would instead chase after my aircraft which I left on autolevel from the beginning of the engagement, allowing the 109 to continue firing at it or quickly readjust for another firing solution, usually with La-5 in a shallow constant rate turn and in some cases straight on from its 6 o'clock.

In this second pass the 109 would again open fire from around 800 meters and consistently undershoot while closing up to around 400 meters- and they would continue to undershoot until they expended all of their remaining ammunition and broke off to go land.

The entire process from when the 109 turned in to pursue the La-5 until they ran out of ammo took on average about 40 seconds to a minute.

I ran this sortie 15 times, 5 times each at 3 different convergence settings (350, 400, 450), and in every instance the AI 109 expended all of their ammunition while failing to down the La-5.

The 400 meter convergence range test saw the most variety, in one instance the Bf-109 managed to get close in behind the La-5 immediately after the first pass and land a few MG-15 rounds, though these hits resulted in nothing and the end result was still consistently the same- and in another instance the 109 severely overshot in the initial pass and had to turn and pursue the La-5 for around a minute before firing again, doing so straight and level at 800 meters range and landing even more MG-15 rounds which did nothing before he ran out of ammo and went home again.

At no point in any of my tests did a 20mm cannon round make contact.

I have also seen this sustained fire behavior in the career mode, and in one glaring instance on a ground troops cover mission all 7 of my AI Bf-109 wingmen managed to burn through their collective 8,400 bullets within 10 minutes of being engaged before turning for home- and only 1 of them managed to score a successful kill on an LaGG.

All in all, its good that the AI is aggressively pursuing targets now, they just need to work on their aim and trigger control again.

Conditions of the test:

Spoiler

Recorded examples of the test:

Spoiler

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12D1xXPXKb95ZXDAqOYaUTKbXY5F7Sc7P/view?usp=sharing