Great video about La5 & 7

[VikingFjord]

Here is a very entertaining short documentary about La5 & La7 they also mention FW190
its russian with english sub

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB0e6DNy9kM

[Finkeren]

One thing I've never quite been able to grasp about the La-7 is its date of introduction. Some sources online insists, that full scale production started in the early spring of 1944 and was in widespread frontline service during the summer. Other sources, including the ones Wikipedia uses, claim that it only entered limited combat trials in september 1944 and didn't see widespread use until the end of the year.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Maybe again something in between those. For sure the plane was in operational training and conversion for units way before sent to the frontline service.

[TJT]

Regarding the La-7's, what online sources Finkeren?

[Finkeren]

I dunno, it's been a while since I browsed around about the La7. One of them was propably airpages.ru, I always seem to end up there at some point, they have some quite colorful describtions.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Well there are sightings of La-7's over Finnish Gulf in summer 1944 during the Soviet offensive on Carelian Isthmus. Ilmari Juutilainen was credited shooting one La-7 down of a 3-plane formation. LLv34 and other FiAF squadrons did face 4.GIAP KBF with pilots like Kolybev in the ranks.

[IVJG4-Knight]

It's not easy to find out exactly when an aircraft reached front lines in sufficient numbers .For example Erprobungskommando (Test commando)  262 ( me 262) made it's appearance on paper in december 1943. But was only operational by end of april 1944 on Lechfeld airfield .

Edited May 22, 2014 by IVJG4-Knight

[Finkeren]

The texts I've read online seem to agree, that the prototype concluded trials in December 1943 and that production started in early spring 1944. It seems a long time to wait until September to begin combat trials, cosidering that we're essentially talking about a refinement of a plane that was already in large scale production. 

Edited May 23, 2014 by Finkeren

[TJT]

I'd put more trust in books like Lavochkin's piston engined fighters; Red Stars vol 10, rather then online recources regarding to those dates.

Awesome signature Finkeren.

[LukeFF]

From Gordon & Khazanov's book on Soviet fighter aircraft:

 

Service flight tests of the La-7 began in mid-September 1944, and were conducted by the 63rd Guards Fighter Air Corps at the First Baltic Front for one month. Thirty La-7s...were assigned to the tests...

 

During the tests, the regiment made 462 sorties, during which 55 enemy aircraft were shot down for the loss of eight La-7s (half of which were non-combat) and three pilots...

 

Following the 63rd Guards Fighter Air Corps, the 156th Fighter Air Corps of the 4th Air Army began operating the La-7...[in October 1944]

 

During October and November 1944 La-7s began to be used widely on all fronts.

 

Those claim numbers notwithstanding, I don't see how the Finns could have encountered the La-7 in the summer of 1944. Probably they were misidentified La-5FNs or La-5Fs.

[Finkeren]

That's what's quoted on the Wikipedia page as well Luke, but doesn't it seem like a long time to even begin combat trials for a plane that's essentially just an upgrade of its predecessor and which was approved for mass production in December 1943 - under war time conditions no less?

[LukeFF]

That's what's quoted on the Wikipedia page as well Luke, but doesn't it seem like a long time to even begin combat trials for a plane that's essentially just an upgrade of its predecessor and which was approved for mass production in December 1943 - under war time conditions no less?

 

G & K note that flight trials took place from December 1943 to March 1944 with two different aircraft, and Moscow Plant 381 had delivered 5 La-7s by March, with 3 of those accepted by the military. Plant 381, it is also stated, had switched over entirely to La-7 production by June. On the other hand, G & K note that Gorki, the other La-7 factory, did not begin building La-7s until October, because they had a very large inventory of La-5FN wings. 

 

In addition, the La-7s sent for frontline evaluation by 63rd GvIAP were almost all built by Plant 381. So, it sounds to me like this was the timeline, based on G & K's writing:

1. Two sets of flight tests ran from December 1943 to March 1944.
2. Production was authorized in March 1944.
3. Plant 381 started building a small number of aircraft in March 1944.
4. Plant 381 aircraft were sent to 63rd GvIAP for evaluation in September 1944.
5. Gorki began production in October 1944.
6. 156th IAP began operations with the type in October 1944, followed closely by other units.

I'd be highly skeptical of any source that says the La-7 was approved for mass production in December 1943, because the plane had simply not passed all of its flight tests at that point.

Edited May 27, 2014 by LukeFF

[Finkeren]

Ah OK, that timeline makes sense. That's all from Gordons book?

Edited May 27, 2014 by Finkeren

[LukeFF]

Ah OK, that timeline makes sense. That's all from Gordons book?

 

Yep, it is.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Continuation War ended 19th of September 1944, so quite possible Ilmari Juutilainen had the chance of shooting down a La-7 They did have clear distinction on ID between different La's and the so called pointy nose planes like Yak/LaGG-3/P39/P40 etc.

[LLv44_Fulminata]

The last time a Finnish aircraft claimed a Lavochkin radial-engined fighter shot down was on 5 August 1944. Lt Esko Lappalainen of HLeLv 34, flying a Bf 109G-6, was credited with shooting down an La-5 of 3 GIAP over Suurisaari (Gogland) on Gulf of Finland. Originally the claim was an 'R' claim, meaning the victory wasn't confirmed well enough to be added to the pilot's personal score(*) but instead to the regiment score, but post-war research has shown that the Soviet fighter was indeed lost. 

 

On the next day Sgt Onni Pitkänen of HLeLv 28, flying a Bf 109G-2, filed one 'R' claim for a LaGG-3 and claimed another damaged over Vegarusjärvi (Ozero Vegarus'yarvi) in Ladogan Karelia. Post-war research has shown that 435 IAP lost both these aircraft.

 

On both 8 and 16 August 1944 Finnish fighters claimed one La-5 damaged. After that date no more Soviet fighters were claimed.

 

(*) That was the intention, but already during the war and ever afterwards the 'R' claims have been included in Finnish pilots' victory totals. 

 

My source is Keskinen & Stenman: Suomen Ilmavoimat - Finnish Air Force vol VI.

Edited May 28, 2014 by 13./JG51Fulminata

[-Roy-Cheesy-Chops]

sorry guys

  but i've not read the other posts but years ago i heard that the La 5 & 7 were made of an early form of plasic..

am i wrong here gents??

damage model would be so much fun with that knowlege..the plane exploding into sharp pieces.be brill??

[Finkeren]

No, as far as I know, it was only the Yak-9U that had the bakelite skin replacing the duralumin, wood and canvas skins of earlier Yaks.