British v German flight sticks

[fergal69]

Anyone any idea why British fighters, such as the Spitfire, had a round loop handle at the top of their flight stick compared to other countries that were a straight with a moulded style grip.

 

I can't see any advantage to the round loop handle compared to a straight handle.

[=621=Samikatz]

I imagine the loop is easier to grab with both hands if a lot of strength is necessary?

[AndyJWest]

Maybe a little easier to swap hands when raising/lowering the undercarriage?

 

Probably just 'do it that way because we always have' though.

[PatrickAWlson]

51 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

Maybe a little easier to swap hands when raising/lowering the undercarriage?

 

Probably just 'do it that way because we always have' though.

 

Tradition: Just because you have always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid

[ZachariasX]

The Spitfire grip is useful when wearing thick gloves and for applying a surprising lot of force at high speeds for roll maneuvers. It gives you a lot of force to pull her out of a high speed dive. It also makes the narrow seating position rather comfortable and gives you a large, unobstruchted stick throw.

 

For everything else, it is against everything you'd intuitively would do *today*. But back then, it's how sticks looked like and people were used to remarkably unergonomic installations. The worst ist the positioning of that idiotic trigger, also made primarily for being used with thick sheepskin gloves. You essentially fire with your left(!) thumb. Or with your right thumb if you are holding the stick on top, which makes precise flying a nightmare. The trim stift gets the stick pretty far away from you, hence you are holding the stick on to with your arm fairly stretched out.

 

In terms of usability it's a nightmare. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. When it works. You can get used to it. But for plain flying, you'll use your legs as armrest and hold the stick below the ring grip with two fingers of one hand. You wouldn't do aerobatics like that, but you can do all the flying you ever need to for going places. And you would't feel steering her, she'll just go where you want to.

[Talisman]

Found these answers:

 

"Stick pivoted half way up used less room in the cockpit and allowed pilot to stay 'leg straight' on the pedals. Spade handle allowed both hands for extra leverage on ailerons.

Just try holding your hands clenched one over the other and they are awkward for side to side movement. The try hold them as on spade grip. Much more comfortable."

 

"The cockpits on these aircraft were small and it was a problem for the control column to get full travel for roll control. This was solved by making the control column rotate at about mid-stick instead of from the the floor.

Other aircraft didn't use them because the cockpits were large enough to accommodate a normal stick and still provide good leverage and side to side travel.

The loop was there so a pilot could use both hands on the stick to get more lateral force since the effective length of the stick was now much less than a conventional floor mounted control stick.

Pilots found them to be much more comfortable to hold and loop style sticks did also get used some on larger aircraft with conventional floor mounted control sticks."

 

Some good views here in the 2 videos below of how easy it is in real life to use the Spitfire joystick and control the aircraft easily with little movement of the stick:

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by 56RAF_Talisman

[Sokol1]

5 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

The worst ist the positioning of that idiotic trigger, also made primarily for being used with thick sheepskin gloves. You essentially fire with your left(!) thumb. Or with your right thumb if you are holding the stick on top, which makes precise flying a nightmare.

 

In fact the trigger of Spitfire Mk.I/II grip was made to be operated with right thumb, because when turn the knurled part from Safety to Fire, the cut for press the trigger  is pointed for right, making more awkward for press with left hand thumb, not impossible, but need bend the finger.

 

 

A movie still with the actor pressing the trigger with left hand thumb.

 

 

Similar considerations for Mk.V and subsequent versions  armed with cannons "rocker" trigger.

 

BTW - Swiss version of Bf 109 E-3 continue using the "Spade" of HS-126 and previous aircraft's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Sokol1

[Sokol1]

Interesting the use of Spitfire "wheel brakes" in this video.

 

https://youtu.be/TuELR28ch-Y?t=1149

 

[ZachariasX]

5 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

A movie still with the actor pressing the trigger with left hand thumb.

What a nice example!

 

You are quiet right, you are supposed to operate the stick with the right hand. By design. But what I’m saying is that todays habits run very much against that. It makes the Spit anything but an „easy“ plane to fly aircraft. Even tough she, in principle, is a rather effortless aircraft to fly.

 

In order to reach that button position with the thumb, you are holding the stick in a position that feels like reaching for the gear lever in a stick shifted car. You grab that one on top. Now grab the gear lever on the side, like a joystick. It comes across odd to do that, while in principle you can still do what you need to do. This kind of „odd“ I get when flying the Spit while holding the stick on top.

 

I would say, if you sat 1000 forists here in that cockpit, >95% would reach for the control column in a way that actor did. When flying her, as said before, I feel best grip position varies depending on what you do. Maneuvering her such that the right hand can reach the trigger button I found tiring, as it was very hard for me pointing her exactly where I want it. You can try that in the sim. Sit a bit back and hold your Joystick on the top and see what it does to your aim. This feels especially odd, as the aircraft can be controlled with great precision.

 

The aircraft takes more relearning than meets the eye. But that is the charm of vintage designs. But nothing can cover up the fact that that kind of grip is a lesser design, one that carries more history than purpose. Even the British eventually got to use „proper“ grips. The twisting part I don‘t find impractical at all though. 

[Trooper117]

It obviously works... shed loads of enemy aircraft shot down proves it works and is completely effective.

RAF pilots would be all too aware that their ability to fly and fight would depend on that control column... their lives were at stake after all.

[Diggun]

Left thumb makes sense if you consider that this then means you can concentrate on using the whole strength of your (usually dominant) right hand to hold the aircraft steady, and you won't have to loosen grip at all to hit the trigger. IIRC, don't Zero's have the gun button on the throttle for similar reasons?

 

The loop at the top of the spade grip essentially gives you a mini-yolke type stick, and we know that twins and larger aircraft favour yolkes for greater flexibility of grips and to bring greater force to bear on the controls.  

[ZachariasX]

50 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

It obviously works... shed loads of enemy aircraft shot down proves it works and is completely effective.

Nobody claimed otherwise.

 

But good of an arrangement it is that you can see in how many aircraft still use this kind of stick.

[Trooper117]

11 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Nobody claimed otherwise.

 

 

I didn't say they did ... I was merely stating how effective it obviously was as the OP said he couldn't see any advantage in having it that way.

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

 

I didn't say they did ... I was merely stating how effective it obviously was as the OP said he couldn't see any advantage in having it that way.

It surley is effective. I misread your post.

[Sokol1]

On the topic.

 

An guy need "Beta Testers" for they Spitfire Joystick project, require own a 3D Printer (or easy access to 3D printer service).

 

 

https://authentikit.org/

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/66393-spitfire-joystick-beta-testers-wanted/

Edited October 26, 2020 by Sokol1

[EAF19_Marsh]

If you look at this mildly interesting video, at 1:21 you can see Flt Lt. Brian Kingcome’s right thumb pressing the trigger (Spitfire Mk. I so only .303s). Thus it appears that some did favour the right hand for firing.

 

 

[sniperton]

On 10/23/2020 at 6:38 PM, fergal69 said:

Anyone any idea why British fighters, such as the Spitfire, had a round loop handle at the top of their flight stick compared to other countries that were a straight with a moulded style grip.

 

I can't see any advantage to the round loop handle compared to a straight handle.

I guess it's because of cockpit ergonomics, or the lack of it.

In British planes several additional controls had to be operated with the right hand while the grip was temporarily held in the left.

German cockpits had a more logical layout and better ergonomics in this respect according to Eric Brown. Additional controls were to the left and it was rarely needed that the pilot had to change hands on the stick.

In short, grips were purposefully designed for two-handed use, while straight sticks for right-hand use.

 

[Blutaar]

The grip reminds me on rowing exercises in the gym. You can pull heavy with that style of hand position. It feels very natural that way compared to a stick where you put one hand over the other.