Dev Diary Dissent

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

Flying Circus damage model please

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

I have begun putting sad emoticon's on Dev diaries that do not address Flying Circus or the damage model.  

 

Please consider "up voting" and then making a similar simple request.  I don't know if it helps or not. Just a simple form of protest.   I'm a little torn as alot of WWII pilots seem to be discovering and enjoying FC and right now that's probably our best path forward to Vol2.   We have been told consistently that once 1C hits the target sales number, resources are allocated. 

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by J5_Baeumer

[LukeFF]

Posting off-topic comments about Flying Circus in a topic about WWII content isn't the way to go about getting what you want.

[JG1_Vonrd]

42 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Posting off-topic comments about Flying Circus in a topic about WWII content isn't the way to go about getting what you want.

So, what is your suggestion?

It's pretty widespread that FC damage model is borked and many players are going back to ROF in frustration.

[LukeFF]

1 minute ago, JG1_Vonrd said:

So, what is your suggestion?

 

Continue the discussion about the FC damage model in FC-specific topics? Creating a fresh, brand-new topic about the FC damage modeling in the Developer Assistance subforum? Writing up a PM and sending it to one of the developers? There are good ways to go about this, but posting off topic comments about the DM in a topic that is about something entirely different is not the way to go about it and just ensures those comments will be hidden or moved elsewhere.

[Stab/JG1_Klaiber]

Well, having PMed the developers, I can confidently tell you that I heard nothing back.  In 3 months.

 

I should also say - I completely understand the need to moderate the board, and keeping off-topic posts to where they're supposed to be.  But, we feel pretty abandoned over here to be honest.

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Stab/JG1_Klaiber

[US213_Talbot]

Why can't Jason address it in the "Officer's Mess" thread?

[JG1_Vonrd]

1 hour ago, Stab/JG1_Klaiber said:

Well, having PMed the developers, I can confidently tell you that I heard nothing back.  In 3 months.

 

I should also say - I completely understand the need to moderate the board, and keeping off-topic posts to where they're supposed to be.  But, we feel pretty abandoned over here to be honest.

 

My understanding is that your PM to Jason has not even been marked as read. Not very confidence building.

[Guest deleted@83466]

The guy probably has 10,000 PMs most of which are people demanding and complaining about this, that, and the other.  I'm surprised he doesn't have PMs blocked from general users.  I sure would.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by SeaSerpent

[Stab/JG1_Klaiber]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

The guy probably has 10,000 PMs most of which are people demanding and complaining about this, that, and the other.  I'm surprised he doesn't have PMs blocked from general users.  I sure would.

 

 

And that's completely fair.  I've personally have never wanted to impugn the devs willingness to be open about development or updates.  Busy people are busy.  And there are a lot of irons in the fire right now.

 

But, it brings us back around to the first question: What is the best way to ask for information about Flying Circus?  Or better yet, ask how we can help?

Edited September 25, 2020 by Stab/JG1_Klaiber

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

There's a story that in feudal Japan, they would test swords by cutting through the stacked bodies of those condemned to die.  As a small way to get back at their captors, some of these condemned would eat handfuls of rocks beforehand, hoping to cause damage to the sword (which was worth more than they were) as it cut through them...

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

1 hour ago, US63_SpadLivesMatter said:

There's a story that in feudal Japan, they would test swords by cutting through the stacked bodies of those condemned to die.  As a small way to get back at their captors, some of these condemned would eat handfuls of rocks beforehand, hoping to cause damage to the sword (which was worth more than they were) as it cut through them...

Your suggesting we should eat rocks? 

[76SQN-FatherTed]

It's a Catch-22 as far as I can see: keep banging on about the DM and thus piss the devs off,  or shut up about it,  thereby sending the message that we're fine with it.  In the first case any remedial work gets pushed to the bottom of the to-do list coz we're annoying, whereas in the second there is  obviously no need for remedial work.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, =CfC=FatherTed said:

It's a Catch-22 as far as I can see: keep banging on about the DM and thus piss the devs off,  or shut up about it,  thereby sending the message that we're fine with it.  In the first case any remedial work gets pushed to the bottom of the to-do list coz we're annoying, whereas in the second there is  obviously no need for remedial work.

 

The constant banging phase should now be over.  They're aware people are not happy.  Now just stop playing.  They have the stats.  They know how many people are playing.  If they still don't do anything, then it's time to move on.  WW2 is always going to be their priority.  Because money.

[=IRFC=Gascan]

Not a single play session goes by without hearing someone complain about the damage model. Whether it's control surfaces getting jammed or disabled too often, or wings falling off after a single burst from long range, there is always a sense of frustration. I can't argue historical reports or engineering analysis since I don't have any reference materials, but there is no doubt that the damage model has had a significant negative impact on the player base. I'm gonna keep the drumbeat going: fix the damage model, its bad for the game!

[Stab/JG1_Klaiber]

32 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Now just stop playing.

 

We did.  https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/65259-jg1-practice/

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Stab/JG1_Klaiber

[HagarTheHorrible]

It was really quite good, until they decided to make it better.

 

The biggest problem with FC is that the Dev’s don’t play it (online), unfortunately..

[BraveSirRobin]

20 minutes ago, Stab/JG1_Klaiber said:

 

We did.  https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/65259-jg1-practice/

 

 

 

 

At least RoF is still pretty good.

[JG1_Vonrd]

oh look... they just locked the damage model thread... mass bans next?

 

[WWBiker_]

1 hour ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

Your suggesting we should eat rocks? 

eating is easy but look for smooth ones to make getting rid of them easy

[BraveSirRobin]

48 minutes ago, JG1_Vonrd said:

oh look... they just locked the damage model thread... mass bans next?

 

Hopefully.

[ST_Catchov]

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

The constant banging phase should now be over.  They're aware people are not happy.  Now just stop playing.  They have the stats.  They know how many people are playing.  If they still don't do anything, then it's time to move on.  WW2 is always going to be their priority.  Because money.

 

How do you know "because money"? Because silence?  They never release sales figures anyway so how would you know? It is a continuing supposition on your part. If it is fact, provide details, sources, data. 

 

Yes they know we are not happy. They'd be blind freddie not to notice. We know WWII is their priority. They should have the decency to say so and put the matter to bed. Not you.

 

 

20 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Hopefully.

 

Unnecessary. But unsurprising.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

How do you know "because money"? 

 

 

Because it’s not exactly a mystery.  Why do you think 777 dropped RoF like it was a live grenade when they had a chance to develop a WW2 game?  Money.

5 minutes ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

Unnecessary. But unsurprising.

Just an appropriately snarky response to gratuitous nonsense.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Hey St_Catchov, if you and everyone else already knows that WW2 is the priority, then why do you need them to say it?  Does your ego need to have them kiss your butt or something, by confirming the obvious?

 

"look me in the eye and tell me you don't love me anymore, and then I'll go away forever and eat a bag of rocks"

 

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by SeaSerpent

[ST_Catchov]

Lol of course. Don't they know who I am!

 

I just find the total silence strange after all the concerns, requests (some 'ornery, some respectful) raised over many months. As I keep saying, let THEM respond one way or the other to put the matter to bed and end the ongoing saga. Is that too much to ask?

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, ST_Catchov said:

Lol of course. Don't they know who I am!

 

I just find the total silence strange after all the concerns, requests (some 'ornery, some respectful) raised over many months. As I keep saying, let THEM respond one way or the other to put the matter to bed and end the ongoing saga. Is that too much to ask?

 

There are probably a couple dozen ongoing WW2 sagas that have priority.  It's not all about you.

[ST_Catchov]

3 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

It's not all about you.

 

No it's not. It's about a little respect for all FC purchasers.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

No it's not. It's about a little respect for all FC purchasers.

 

There are easily a dozen WW2 sagas that they're not commenting on, either.  It has nothing to do with respect.  When they have time to get to it, they'll get to it.  If they don't, move on with your life.

[Guest deleted@83466]

What if he has nowhere else to go?

?

[Zooropa_Fly]

6 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Why do you think 777 dropped RoF like it was a live grenade when they had a chance to develop a WW2 game?

 

A small part of that reason might be the fact that they made a few 'mistakes' with RoF, that contributed to many going elsewhere.

[Dutch2]

With or without money making, 1C has to go into action if noticing the mixed reaction on Steam review https://store.steampowered.com/app/1198470/IL2_Sturmovik_Flying_Circus__Volume_I/  

 

[Chief_Mouser]

I'd be very surprised if FC1 isn't as far as it's going. Out of the two 'experimental' modules it's been obvious for a long time that TC has been getting all the love. One can only assume that it sold better than Flying Circus. Furthermore, being a WW2 game it integrates with the rest of BoX. Now we have player-controlled AA vehicles on the way - again, WW2, and using a lot of the knowledge built up from TC (probably).

It will be very interesting to see what comes after BoN. If FC2 isn't announced then it never will be, if you ask me. Not that anyone has, of course.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

16 hours ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

Your suggesting we should eat rocks? 

 

Oh come on, the futility and hopelessness of spitedly downvoting the dev diaries doesn't remind you of it, just a little?

[BraveSirRobin]

7 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

 

A small part of that reason might be the fact that they made a few 'mistakes' with RoF, that contributed to many going elsewhere.

 

I have no idea what you’re referring to, but it doesn’t matter.  It’s all about the money.

[Zooropa_Fly]

30 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

I have no idea what you’re referring to, but it doesn’t matter.  It’s all about the money.

The great nerfing, ftp, The Russian module, The Channel map. 

I'm sure these things affected it's then and future profitability. The last two points meaning they were half hearted attempts, imo. 

[BraveSirRobin]

14 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

The great nerfing, ftp, The Russian module, The Channel map. 

I'm sure these things affected it's then and future profitability. The last two points meaning they were half hearted attempts, imo. 

The great nerfing?  Lol. They were already out the door when that happened.  The other stuff had nothing to do with anything.  

[Lusekofte]

2 hours ago, 216th_Cat said:

will be very interesting to see what comes after BoN. If FC2 isn't announced then it never will be, if you ask me. Not that anyone has, of course.

Oh I have asked. 
Like «why did you park your plane where my propeller is?» 

«why did fly exactly where I was shooting?» “Why did you fly into my bomb” 

 

Anyway, if FC 2 is not announced we will not have it. Made me hope they do announce it. It is really a part with great potential 

[Chief_Mouser]

14 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

Oh I have asked. 
Like «why did you park your plane where my propeller is?» 

«why did fly exactly where I was shooting?» “Why did you fly into my bomb” 

 

It is quite weird how often we have occupied the same piece of the sim arena at the same time. Logical coincidence or the collision of parallel universes? Where's Spock? I'm sure he'd know.

[JG1_Butzzell]

S!

 

The problem hoes back to the beginning of BoS. They learned that they could not use the RoF flight models for WWII planes. They started with the RoF FM/DM and had to change it. Now we want to add WWI planes to BOS. Well, It was really good for WWI planes. Then they decided there was something wrong with WWII and had to fix it. The fix completely ruined the DM for WWI. Then they fixed that only it was still bad. Now with the addition of flight control DM it is two steps below Red Baron 3D. Very much a shame that it started out as a shining star and has ended up as a dead battery.

 

Suggestion: Hit box damage is based on a certain amount of random damage. I believe that is why the damage model is a bell curve? Get rid of the randomness. Do away with reality of spar thickness. Make the damage model an absolute. Ex: 20 hits on a spar and it is gone, 3 hits on a  radiator and it is a minor leak, 6 hits and it is a major radiator leak. You can do this for all the various hit boxes. Planes with thicker spars could have a higher hit number. The problem is, how many hits do what damage?  This is the playability vs reality model.   Reality is probably the ultimate goal for  sim. Unfortunately at this point in time, there is no playability.

 

jmho

[messsucher]

38 minutes ago, JG1_Butzzell said:

S!

 

The problem hoes back to the beginning of BoS. They learned that they could not use the RoF flight models for WWII planes. They started with the RoF FM/DM and had to change it. Now we want to add WWI planes to BOS. Well, It was really good for WWI planes. Then they decided there was something wrong with WWII and had to fix it. The fix completely ruined the DM for WWI. Then they fixed that only it was still bad. Now with the addition of flight control DM it is two steps below Red Baron 3D. Very much a shame that it started out as a shining star and has ended up as a dead battery.

 

Suggestion: Hit box damage is based on a certain amount of random damage. I believe that is why the damage model is a bell curve? Get rid of the randomness. Do away with reality of spar thickness. Make the damage model an absolute. Ex: 20 hits on a spar and it is gone, 3 hits on a  radiator and it is a minor leak, 6 hits and it is a major radiator leak. You can do this for all the various hit boxes. Planes with thicker spars could have a higher hit number. The problem is, how many hits do what damage?  This is the playability vs reality model.   Reality is probably the ultimate goal for  sim. Unfortunately at this point in time, there is no playability.

 

jmho

 

Sorry, no. RNG is the best way to simulate damage in simplified combat flight sims. There is a ton of variables you can't simulate, like wind, recoil bumbs of your weapons, exact angles of hits, to name a few. RNG takes care of those, like it does in real life, and that's why some planes exploded and some just begun to smoke. It can be a matter of 1 cm difference in flight path of a bullet what happen, and no pilot can make such "skill shots".  You get that lucky head shot or explosion shot or you don't get them, but it is lucky shot, RNG, not skill in in flight sims. The more you make hits the better your chances are for the lucky shot, just like in real life, and if you make enough hits the plane is ruined, just like in real life.