Please tone down the 12.7 mm round

[JG7_X-Man]

I guess with people not being happy with the performance of the .50 cal in some instances, it makes sense. If the comparison are the weapons gunners are using.

IMHO, a few hits from a single 12.7 mm round seems to do do more damage to an aircraft than 4/6 .50 cal rounds.

 

I might be wrong if so, I am all ears!

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

In regards to skin damage that determines lift and aerodynamic penalty, a single 13mm HE is equivalent to around 62 impacts of .50 cal AP. I haven't tested the Russian 12.7mm explosive round, but I would expect it to be similar.

Edited September 16, 2020 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[SAS_Storebror]

The topic title is somewhat misleading.

cal .50 is 12.7mm technically, just saying.

 

Mike

[ROCKET_KNUT]

5 minutes ago, SAS_Storebror said:

The topic title is somewhat misleading.

cal .50 is 12.7mm technically, just saying.

 

Mike

Not misleading at all. I get it: Since the american .50 cals are useless, the soviet 12.7mm should be shit too. ?

[Avimimus]

6 minutes ago, SAS_Storebror said:

The topic title is somewhat misleading.

cal .50 is 12.7mm technically, just saying.

 

Mike

 

Definitely? I suppose he is asking about the UB and not the Breda?

 

The German 13mm round has a larger bursting charge.

The UB has a larger bursting charge and high rate of fire and ballistic performance.

The Breda 12.7mm is much weaker due to a lower velocity round.

These weapons are all quite different from each other.

 

Maybe the issue being complained about is more to do with the vulnerability of fighter pilots and radiators? As opposed to the limited vulnerability of bombers (where the bullets are being fired into the back of the aircraft or nacelles and not penetrating to the vulnerable parts as often)?

2 minutes ago, ROCKET_KNUT said:

Not misleading at all. I get it: Since the american .50 cals are useless, the soviet 12.7mm should be shit too. ?

 

Not really:

...and that is before one gets into rate of fire

[ROCKET_KNUT]

9 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

Not really:

I´m actually not interested in those figures and which gun does what because I usally bomb stuff. 

Only ocasionally I blow a 109 out of the sky using fifties, which is hilarious when those are mounted in the nose of a stupid fat bomber. 

 

The target of the joke was something else though... Yeah, I know, my jokes are bad ? 

[-SF-Disarray]

24 minutes ago, ROCKET_KNUT said:

Not misleading at all. I get it: Since the american .50 cals are useless, the soviet 12.7mm should be shit too. ?

 

Wrong. The width of the rounds are the same, that much is true, but that isn't the whole story. The Soviet round is a little heavier and has a little more muzzle velocity. Both those factors are going to mean that the AP round fired from a Soviet gun will hit that little but harder. But that isn't what is being noticed here, I suspect. The major difference between the Soviet and US armament is the roughly 2 grams of PETIN shoved into the Soviet round; and the .8 grams of PETIN in the German 131 HE rounds marks the difference there. Now I'm not expert in high explosives but it strains credulity that 2 grams should make this much difference, and it kicks credulity right in the throat to see that the .8 grams of PETIN in the German HE rounds from the 131 are about as effective as well. In general I suspect the effects of HE rounds across the board are a little over modeled, but again I'm no expert.

[ROCKET_KNUT]

14 minutes ago, ROCKET_KNUT said:

I´m actually not interested in those figures... The target of the joke was something else though...

Thank you.

[Cpt_Siddy]

Bredas are bad because they have only AP in the belt. 

 

All HE ammo, no matter of how much HE they have, are very good at damaging aerodynamic performance of plane. 

 

There is some ammo belt issues at the moment, where most German planes that have big MG's, only have HE ammo in the belt, and 202 has only AP ammo in the belt. 

 

I am not sure what the soviet plane guns have belted in, but i assume that if it were all AP, they would also be meh...

 

[LeLv30_Redwing-]

Oh gee, an ammunition thread! I estimate max two pages before anarchy and lockdown.

Edited September 16, 2020 by LeLv30_Redwing

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, JG7_X-Man said:

...

IMHO, a few hits from a single 12.7 mm round seems to do do more damage to an aircraft than 4/6 .50 cal rounds.

 

...

more like = 40/60 0.50 cal rounds ?

 

HE ammo is so OP after 4.005 that is comical, so yes there needs to be look at what go wrong so bad after it.

[BraveSirRobin]

16 minutes ago, -SF-Disarray said:

If only there was a person, or group of people, who could comment on this with authority or fix the issue...

The Illuminati?

[-SF-Disarray]

Just now, BraveSirRobin said:

The Illuminati?

 

Who else could it be? You know, I'll ask about it at the next meeting.

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

 

Definitely? I suppose he is asking about the UB and not the Breda?

 

The German 13mm round has a larger bursting charge.

The UB has a larger bursting charge and high rate of fire and ballistic performance.

The Breda 12.7mm is much weaker due to a lower velocity round.

These weapons are all quite different from each other.

 

Maybe the issue being complained about is more to do with the vulnerability of fighter pilots and radiators? As opposed to the limited vulnerability of bombers (where the bullets are being fired into the back of the aircraft or nacelles and not penetrating to the vulnerable parts as often)?

 

Not really:

...and that is before one gets into rate of fire

LOL no wonder complains about 202 when MGs in game are wrongly full of useless AP rounds and 0 HE, if only 131s were same full AP bug insted full HE bug would be nice to se if anyone would complain how 13mm are week, and 0.50 are just fine ?

Edited September 16, 2020 by CountZero

[BraveSirRobin]

6 minutes ago, -SF-Disarray said:

 

Who else could it be? You know, I'll ask about it at the next meeting.

Are you guys using Zoom now?

[JG7_X-Man]

1 hour ago, ROCKET_KNUT said:

Not misleading at all. I get it: Since the american .50 cals are useless, the soviet 12.7mm should be shit too. ?

 That made me laugh out loud! That's one way of putting it! I am joking! LOL

 

All I am saying is this; if we don't have an issue with bomber armament which is essentially the same round as the .50 cal.

Something isn't correct! One or the other has to be off.

[Avimimus]

8 minutes ago, CountZero said:

more like = 40/60 0.50 cal rounds ?

 

HE ammo is so OP after 4.005 that is comical, so yes there needs to be look at what go wrong so bad after it.

 

The larger HE charges in the UB and Mg-131 certainly have an effect.

 

However, there is also the issue of convergence... with all 0.50 cals converging on one spot (which isn't historical in many cases). Whereas the UB and MG-131 are mounted in the fuselage... so less likely to miss entirely due to firing at the wrong range.

 

It would be nice if there were hard-coded 'historical convergence' options in the menu. That way one wouldn't have to update the GUI much but would be able to offer the more complex convergence patterns used on American fighters and on the Fw-190...

[CountZero]

Just now, Avimimus said:

 

The larger HE charges in the UB and Mg-131 certainly have an effect.

 

However, there is also the issue of convergence... with all 0.50 cals converging on one spot (which isn't historical in many cases). Whereas the UB and MG-131 are mounted in the fuselage... so less likely to miss entirely due to firing at the wrong range.

 

It would be nice if there were hard-coded 'historical convergence' options in the menu. That way one wouldn't have to update the GUI much but would be able to offer the more complex convergence patterns used on American fighters and on the Fw-190...

I know i know we need to learn to aim, no problems   ?

[-SF-Disarray]

2 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

The larger HE charges in the UB and Mg-131 certainly have an effect.

 

However, there is also the issue of convergence... with all 0.50 cals converging on one spot (which isn't historical in many cases). Whereas the UB and MG-131 are mounted in the fuselage... so less likely to miss entirely due to firing at the wrong range.

 

It would be nice if there were hard-coded 'historical convergence' options in the menu. That way one wouldn't have to update the GUI much but would be able to offer the more complex convergence patterns used on American fighters and on the Fw-190...

 

Convergence isn't at play as much as you'd think. I've done testing using the P-39, the Yak-7 and the 109-g14. All have guns of similar caliber and all of them are mounted in a similar way, in the nose and they all only have 2 guns. The cannons were not used. The only difference between these guns in the game, in real terms, is .8 and 1.8 grams of high explosive filler respectively. The guns from the Yak and 109 have an immediately observable effect on target with a short burst. The guns on the P-39 have no appreciable effect on the target plane with a similarly short burst. In one test the entire magazine of the P-39's HMGs was emptied into the target, with only a few rounds missing the target, and the target still had a wing though it was missing the flap. For what it is worth, these rounds were fired from at or very near the convergence range.