Engine Durability (A-20, Pe-2s)

[Roland_HUNter]

 

Pe-2 was a little bit surprising.

 

 

[Cpt_Siddy]

Now you know how most allied pilots feel when shooting 109 from dead 6. 

Also, what you are shooting at is not the engine but a wheel and wheel well... 

[SAS_Storebror]

Totally agree with the OP, since the MG131 has mixed AP/HE belt, you would expect the AP shells to travel through the nacelle and cause catastrophic damage to vital parts of the engine's aggregates which are usually mounted on it's back, as well as the engine mount, supply tubes etc.

I think what we're seeing here is just another representation of the general AP ammo ineffectivity we have since patch 4.005.

The HE bullets shred the trailing wing edge (flaps) and whatever is on the aft of the nacelle, but that's it.

And the AP bullets do what they do on all US planes too: Nothing.

And that clearly isn't right.

 

Mike

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Well the inline engines where known to fail quicker than radial engines in most cases but thats a bit extreme yeah, the amount of MG131 the engine of the A-20 takes in the first vid is just ridiculous.

 

I'd like to see a more evolved DM for engines. Seems to me like most of the time its all black or all white. It either works just fine or totally fails after catching on fire. Theres few 'in between' states. I do see the 'first engine damaged' message sometimes but I dont even feel the loss of power? 

 

Also, about coolant and oil leaks, it would be great to see engines gradually losing power instead of working perfectly fine at emergency power for a long while until completelt stopping in a matter of one second. At least from times to times depending on the size of the leak and the overall damage the engine/radiator took.

 

Just throwing a few ideas around, I think the engines DM should be more evolved.

[Cpt_Siddy]

But he is not shooting engines, he is shooting Wheel wells behind the engine...

 

I bet the wheel structure hit boxes, that are made of sturdy tuff, are eating all the machine gun bullets. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[Roland_HUNter]

13 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

But he is not shooting engines, he is shooting Wheel wells behind the engine...

 

I bet the wheel structure hit boxes, that are made of sturdy tuff, are eating all the machine gun bullets. 

Sry sir, but what do you think, what is dropping from the engine at 0:12, bomb?
You are right, its hitting the wheel, but when its gone, it should hit the engine. And I don't think the wheel should stop many -many 13 mm rounds.

[357th_KW]

 

Watch from the timestamp and note the extensive MG151 strikes to the back of many of the engines (and from a 110G2 with at least 2 and most likely 4 x MG151 firing here).  And yet all are still running, and the plane is hardly even leaking any fluids by the end of this attack.  There's a reason why the Luftwaffe kept increasingly moving to bigger and bigger weapons throughout the war and had settled on at least one, or more often multiple 30mms as the right setup for anti-bomber work by the end of the war.

 

Watching German gun camera footage makes the current rendition of 20mms in IL2 look like something out of an action movie.

[Retnek]

Some bombers (later) in WW2 had an armoured fire-wall behind the the engine. I guess that wall was able to stop 7.x mm-bullets, maybe 13 mm. But I doubt it resisted more powerful AP-bullets.

 

- what kind of fire-wall the A-20 model B had? Afaik no armour - so all kind of bullets (after shredding wheels etc) should hit the engine.

- for the Pe-2 I wasn't able to find any details about the wall behind the engine.

 

- the oil-cooler of the Il-2 was well armoured. Given it is modelled the (AI-)pilot is closing the cowling's - what kind of ammo (13 mm AP f.e.) was needed to cut through the closed backward cowling?

[CountZero]

nah, what problem, just learn to aim ?

or maybe its netproblems, just play SP all is ok.

Edited September 10, 2020 by CountZero

[Cpt_Siddy]

7 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Sry sir, but what do you think, what is dropping from the engine at 0:12, bomb?
You are right, its hitting the wheel, but when its gone, it should hit the engine. And I don't think the wheel should stop many -many 13 mm rounds.

 

Maybe its netcode issues then, or perhaps you need to learn to aim at the actual engines and not the wheels. 

 

The angle you are shooting from, the dead 6, makes the bullets collide with every hit box on the way before the engine hitbox, and bu that time the bullets have lost most of their energy or deflected away. 

 

Try attacking the engine from above, and shoot the actual engine, and you will see that MG's and cannons work juuuust fine. 

[Roland_HUNter]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

Maybe its netcode issues then, or perhaps you need to learn to aim at the actual engines and not the wheels. 

 

The angle you are shooting from, the dead 6, makes the bullets collide with every hit box on the way before the engine hitbox, and bu that time the bullets have lost most of their energy or deflected away. 

 

Try attacking the engine from above, and shoot the actual engine, and you will see that MG's and cannons work juuuust fine. 

So you think an MG 131 what coud penetrate 17 mm of armor at 100 meter, will not enough to penetrate the whole thing into the engine? ? Naah.

8 hours ago, Retnek said:

the oil-cooler of the Il-2 was well armoured

It was 6 mm thick. MG 131 could penetrate it from 500 meter. the MG 151 from 1000m.
Mg-151 APHE could pen 19-17 mm at 100 meter. API could pen 24 mm at 100 meter.

[Cpt_Siddy]

7 minutes ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

So you think an MG 131 what coud penetrate 17 mm of armor at 100 meter, will not enough to penetrate the whole thing into the engine? ? Naah.

 

 

Nah, not me, the game and the netcode :^) 

 

Rest of us mortals have just learned to live with it and learned to aim. Not engaging 109 from dead 6 because your bullets will be eaten by its tail and such... 

[Roland_HUNter]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

Nah, not me, the game and the netcode :^) 

 

Rest of us mortals have just learned to live with it and learned to aim. Not engaging 109 from dead 6 because your bullets will be eaten by its tail and such... 

Ok. So if there is a chance to engage him from 6 because of dead gunner, you SHOULDN'T because the damage modell is not made for that. O k. Please do not say nonsenses like this. And I tested in SP mission there is no netcode error.

[Cpt_Siddy]

17 minutes ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

 And I tested in SP mission tehre is no netcode error.

 

Are you sure?  It might be between the chair and the screen. :^) 

 

And if Netcode is not issue, then i guess your gunnery skills need some honing :^)))))

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

Are you sure?  It might be between the chair and the screen. :^) 

 

And if Netcode is not issue, then i guess your gunnery skills need some honing :^)))))

50% of posible culprit is eliminated, so its 100% aim problem, on some airplanes to not waist ammo one needs to hit wingtips, similar solutions should be invastigated here, hit wingtips to damage engines, in any case aim needs to be improved all is ok.

[Roland_HUNter]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

Are you sure?  It might be between the chair and the screen. :^) 

 

And if Netcode is not issue, then i guess your gunnery skills need some honing :^)))))

I aimed directly on the engine holder, so I don't understand what kind of aim improvment are u talking about.

[SAS_Storebror]

He's not talking about improving aiming skills like you would in real life.

You need to forget about physics and aim like the game expects you to.

Or do something useful instead.

Your choice.

 

Mike 

[Retnek]

4 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Rest of us mortals have just learned to live with it and learned to aim. Not engaging 109 from dead 6 because your bullets will be eaten by its tail and such... 

Better is the enemy of good - if a part of a simulation isn't done good enough it's worth to point on it and ask for improvements. Coming in from below and aim for the oil-cooler of the IL-2 was the way the Luftwaffe pilots did it. Being successful the authentic way makes the difference between a game and a simulation.

[Cpt_Siddy]

12 minutes ago, Retnek said:

 game and a simulation.

 

I attained peace of mind by accepting that this is a game and now my blood pressure is nice and low. 

[Retnek]

19 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

I attained peace of mind by accepting that this is a game and now my blood pressure is nice and low. 

Overstretched expectations ... the golden youth. I'm quite satisfied with what we got with Il-2 GB until now. But it would be an error not to ask for more - they are able to!

[Cpt_Siddy]

59 minutes ago, Retnek said:

Overstretched expectations ... the golden youth. I'm quite satisfied with what we got with Il-2 GB until now. But it would be an error not to ask for more - they are able to!

 

The golden shower? What? 

 

Man, i started my simming with A-10 Cuba... actually, i flown some earlier things too but i don't remember their name.

 

 

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

We know already the 13mm in the 109s do not have any any AP, it's all HE

[CountZero]

5 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

We know already the 13mm in the 109s do not have any any AP, it's all HE

 

It has AP and HE mix , but AP in this game is more like PP after 4.005

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

5 hours ago, CountZero said:

 

It has AP and HE mix , but AP in this game is more like PP after 4.005

 

No, it doesnt have them. Its been like this since the G-6 came out, same for the G-14 and K-4. The He 111 H-16 top turret does have AP in the belt 

 

 

[CountZero]

2 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

No, it doesnt have them. Its been like this since the G-6 came out, same for the G-14 and K-4. The He 111 H-16 top turret does have AP in the belt 

 

 

I check game files for 109s with them and they have AP and HE for it:

DefaultAmmunition=0

// Зарядка стрелкового оружия

[GunAmmunition=0]    // 100 бронебойных и 200 осколочно-фугасных пуль 13х64 (к пулемету MG 131)
    ExpendableMass = 25.0
    ResidualMass = 0.0
    MaxMisFiresInMagazine=0
    MaxRoundsInMagazine=300
    RoundsInMagazine=300
    ReservedMagazines=0
    AmountRoundsWithOneTracer=4    // каждая 4-я пуля с трассером
    TracerIdx=0
    object0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_13x64_HE.txt"
    object0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_13x64_AP.txt"
    object0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_13x64_HE.txt"
    target0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_13x64_HE.bin"
    target0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_13x64_AP.bin"
    target0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_13x64_HE.bin"
    BushConfig = "LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Trash/Batch_case12-20mm.txt"

 

BUT after your 2nd post i again check and see they probably have bug, from what i know they should be using object0 object1 object2 for HE AP HE if thats the plan , how its now it looks like only object 0 for all 3 and maybe thats why there is problem with belt being HEAPHE but only HE, i see same is on 190A8 and D9 files with 131, do they also have only HE?

 

It should look like this

    object0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_13x64_HE.txt"
    object1="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_13x64_AP.txt"
    object2="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_13x64_HE.txt"
    target0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_13x64_HE.bin"
    target1="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_13x64_AP.bin"
    target2="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_13x64_HE.bin"

[357th_KW]

Might be worth submitting that as a bug report.

[CountZero]

5 minutes ago, KW_1979 said:

Might be worth submitting that as a bug report.

Nah, and to half their ammo belt, now they have full ammo bellt of good ammo, no AP no problems, no wonder i was able to gt so many 51s when i tested how many 13mm only from 109 can down when all belt is HE.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

 maybe thats why there is problem with belt being HEAPHE but only HE, i see same is on 190A8 and D9 files with 131, do they also have only HE?

 

Yep, the Fw 190 A-8 and D-9 also have a pure HE belt in game:

[Roland_HUNter]

17 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

Yep, the Fw 190 A-8 and D-9 also have a pure HE belt in game:

So, its a bugg, no?

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

On 9/9/2020 at 1:04 PM, Cpt_Siddy said:

But he is not shooting engines, he is shooting Wheel wells behind the engine...

 

I bet the wheel structure hit boxes, that are made of sturdy tuff, are eating all the machine gun bullets. 

 

On 9/10/2020 at 2:22 AM, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Sry sir, but what do you think, what is dropping from the engine at 0:12, bomb?
 

 

The back of each engine  for the Pe-2 has a bomb bay that can hold a 100kg bomb.  For a 10 x 100kg bombs setup, there are 4 under the wings, 4 in the center bomb bay and 1 behind each engine - for a total of 10.    

 

I'm kind of surprised that direct hits on the bomb behind the engine doesn't have a chance to explode the bomb - or at least I've never seen it happen.

 

That's definitely a tire dropping from the A-20, however.

Edited September 13, 2020 by 69th_Mobile_BBQ

[Cpt_Siddy]

11 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

 

 

The back of each engine  for the Pe-2 has a bomb bay that can hold a 100kg bomb.  For a 10 x 100kg bombs setup, there are 4 under the wings, 4 in the center bomb bay and 1 behind each engine - for a total of 10.    

 

I'm kind of surprised that direct hits on the bomb behind the engine doesn't have a chance to explode the bomb - or at least I've never seen it happen.

 

That's definitely a tire dropping from the A-20, however.

 

 

There is no bombs in wheel well. 

 

The 10x 100 configuration has 2x2 on wings and 6x in fuselage bombay. 

 

The wheel well and wheal structure is just eating most of the bullets and HE fragments before it reaches an engine components from the MG's 

Cannons have more oomph so they blow trough most of the structure. 

 

/edit

 

oh, there is one bomb behind wheel well, well what do you know. More meat to safeguard against nasty AP. 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

16 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

There is no bombs in wheel well. 

 

The 10x 100 configuration has 2x2 on wings and 6x in fuselage bombay. 

 

The wheel well and wheal structure is just eating most of the bullets and HE fragments before it reaches an engine components from the MG's 

Cannons have more oomph so they blow trough most of the structure. 

There is a single bomb behind the wheel well in a separate compartment, the fuselage bomb bay can only fit four bombs.

Edited September 14, 2020 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

There is no bombs in wheel well. 

 

The 10x 100 configuration has 2x2 on wings and 6x in fuselage bombay. 

 

The wheel well and wheal structure is just eating most of the bullets and HE fragments before it reaches an engine components from the MG's 

Cannons have more oomph so they blow trough most of the structure. 

 

I would have thought the same thing but, I did check the external views before I commented.  

 

As far as the wheels go, I doubt there's much in the likes of any air-to-air use gun/cannon that can "blow through" a steel tire hub edge-to-edge.  If hitting from the side, then of course.  

More likely, if the tire and hub where hit by a heavy cannon, it would either detach the hub-and-gear assembly causing it all to fall away, or it would mangle the whole thing so badly, it might be jammed inside the gear bay and not be able to be lowered.  

 

[Cpt_Siddy]

9 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

 

I would have thought the same thing but, I did check the external views before I commented.  

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, so there is, well, that more meat to guard against bullets. 

 

The point is, 30mm HE ammo are with contact fuse, so they will blow the wing off before they will blow the engine. And AP will be deflected or absorbed by all the stuff in the way.   Shooting at wheel well just wont work because how all the hit boxes in the way like to eat AP bullets and HE fragments. 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[SAS_Storebror]

3 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

AP will be deflected or absorbed by all the stuff in the way.

Shooting at wheel well just wont work because how all the hit boxes in the way like to eat AP bullets and HE fragments.

That's a bit of the "reality vs. game" battle again.

In reality, AP ammo would absolutely make it's way through the wheel well eventually.

Not necessarily the first bullet, and maybe not no.2 and no.3 either, but if you put a solid burst in the well, a couple of bullets will definitely find their way to vital components of the engine.

 

In this game however there seem to be big massive all-filling hitboxes each and everywhere, and quite like the magic "bullet-sponge" at the tail of the 109 (which seems to have a size equal to a medium size building) there seems to be such a "black hole" hitbox in the wheel wells as well.

 

Mike

[Cpt_Siddy]

Out of curiosity, can someone do this test with P-38 with its AP .50 cals? 

[Roland_HUNter]

33 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Out of curiosity, can someone do this test with P-38 with its AP .50 cals? 

 

Same thing is possible with MG17, true the engine need a lots of hit from 7.92 AP but that is realistic.
So I guess the MG-131 really don't have AP in the game at the moment.

[Cpt_Siddy]

Yeah, seems that AP do work, and the wheel wells and the stuff in there is just absorbing all the HE fragments. 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[SAS_Storebror]

11 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

I guess the MG-131 really don't have AP in the game at the moment.

 

From the extracted GTP archives it's clearly visible that the MG 131 is intended to have 2+1 HE+AP belting, however it looks indeed like the object reference is wrong when all "GunAmmunition" lines for that weapon reference the same "object0" instead of increasing object indices ("object0", "object1", "object2") like for any other weapon.

Affected planes are:

• Bf 109 G-6 (MG 131 = HE only due to "object0" bug)
• Bf 109 G-14 (MG 131 = HE only due to "object0" bug)
• Bf 109 K-4 (MG 131 = HE only due to "object0" bug)
• Fw 190 A-8 (MG 131 = HE only due to "object0" bug)
• Fw 190 D-9 (MG 131 = HE only due to "object0" bug)
• Mc.202 (12.7mm Breda-Safat = AP only due to "object0" bug)

The last line (Mc.202 = AP only) also explains why the Macchi gets defused so much in online dogfights:

It's sturdy, it turns well, it should basically be a beginner's dream quite like the 109 F-4, however... due to the complete absence of AP effectivity in fighter vs. fighter combat since the dreaded 4.005 update, the Macchi is left with useless guns only, unless you pick the wing cannons, which in turn have little ammo and cause a massive penalty on both drag and maneouverability.

 

Mike