A bit of help with research (missing aircraft)?

[Avimimus]

Hello everyone,

 

I would like to make a comprehensive list of the aircraft that are missing from the existing theatres announced. Note: This thread is for existing theatres - not new maps/theatres! I'll likely create another thread for that in a few weeks.

 

Some of these aircraft wouldn't make worthwhile additions, but it is still interesting when comparing the simulation to history to see what is missing. That said, some aircraft might justify release as part of special 'tenth anniversary editions' someday. Anyway, this should be fun!

 

Aircraft will be classified into the following categories:
- Stationed within the map or stationed in an off-map airfield (but operating over map)
- Stationed within the campaign's time period or operational over the map at another time.

 

Where it is possible information on the units we should give that information as well!

 

Overview

 

Moscow:

 

Missing variants:

Pe-3

Li-2

Ju-87B/R

 

Missing fighters:

I-153

P-40B/C

Macchi C.200 

 

Missing attackers:

I-153

Hs-123 

 

Missing medium bombers:

SB-2

Do-17 (withdrawn part way through)

 

Missing support and recon:

Fw-189A-1 (Present with 2(F)/11 from November 1941 on-wards, would have been on or near the map).

Hs-126?

 

 

Stalingrad:

 

Missing variants:

Pe-3

Li-2

Ju-87B/R

P-40B/C?

 

Missing fighters:

Macchi C.200

IAR-80

 

Missing attackers:

IAR81A grupul 6 vînatoare/bopi (esc. 61 and 62) winter of 41-42

Su-2 (only 135 BAP and 52 BAP?) 

Hs-123 

 

Missing medium bombers:

270BAD/10GBAP (SB, DB-3/Il4)

271NBAD (SB, DB-3, R-5)

 

Missing recon and support:

Fw-189

Hs-126 (Phased out in 1941-1942)

Ju-86 (small numbers as part of the airlift?)

 

 

Kuban:

 

Missing variants:

Pe-3

Li-2

LaGG-3 (late)

A-20G-1?

Yak-7A?

 

Missing Fighters:

IAR81 Escadrila 43 of grupul 3 (Kerch Straits 1942)

 

Missing attackers:

Su-2 (at least 270 BAD seems to have still been in the area)

Hs-123

 

Missing medium bombers:

Il-4/DB3F
?230SHAD/805 ShAP (SB)

 

Missing recon and support:

Ar-196

Fw-189

Do-17 (glider tug)

??Hs-126 (Phased out in 1941-1942. Mainly a glider tug)??

 

 

Velikiye Luki (1942-1943):

 

Missing medium bombers:

Il-4/DB3F
Tu-2? (at the end of the battle?)

 

 

Kursk:

 

Missing variants:

Ju-87D5? (at the end of the battle?)

Bf-110G (late)?

 

 

Bodenplatte:

 

Missing variants:

Fw-190A9

Bf-109G10

Bf-109G-14/AS

Spitfire XII

P-38J

A-20J/K/Boston V

 

Missing medium bombers::

A-26 (386th and 391st)

 

Missing recon and support:

Auster (Spotter)

Grasshopper (Spotter)

 

Normandy (1943-1944):

 

Missing variants:

Bf-109G-14/AS

Spitfire XII

P-38J/F/G/H?

P-47C

 

Missing medium bombers:

Do-217 (mainly over the eastern part of the map, missing variant info)

Ju-188 (mainly over the eastern part of the map, missing variant info)

Ju-88S (mainly over the eastern part of the map)

 

Missing recon and support:

Auster (Spotter)

Grasshopper (Spotter)

 

Normandy (1942-1943):

 

Missing variants:

Typhoon Mk.I (early)
Spit IXc (early)

Spitfire Vb (LF variant); Spitfire Vc (F and LF variant)

Mustang Mk.I (cannon armed P-51)
A-20 Boston III, Boston IV (NF)

Fw-190A4

 

Missing attackers:

Beaufighter Mk 1C, Beaufighter Mk VIF (NF)
Whirlwind (until 1943)

 

Missing medium bombers:

Do-217E
Wellington (major night bomber, and coastal patrol)

Missing recon and support:

Blenheim IV, Defiant, Walrus

 

 

Normandy (1939-1941):

 

[Will be discussed later, as it would require an almost entirely new plane-set (whereas Normandy in 1942-1943 already has a lot of aircraft modeled if collector planes are counted e.g. Fw-190A3, Bf-109F, Hurricane IIb/IIc).]

Edited June 30, 2021 by Avimimus

[Avimimus]

Heavy bombers (can't be modeled properly due to technical issues):
He-177 (Stalingrad, Normandy)
B-17 (BoBP, Normandy)
B-24 (BoBP)
Halifax (BoBP)
Lancaster (BoBP, Normandy day raids)
Pe-8 (Stationed at Moscow but not flying missions over it. Used at Kursk?)

TB3
Fw-200?

 

To research

 

Russian Aircraft of uncertain dispositions but likely in one of the above theatres:
DB-3/Il-4 (Still relevant for Moscow? Production disruptions mean that there as a low point in 1941...?)
SB-2 (This was the most numerous bomber, but many were caught on the ground in the first few days. I wonder how much attrition had taken place by 1942? Where were they deployed?).
Yak-4 (Many were retained near Leningrad, but others were on the Southern Front as late as 1943... having trouble placing them with certainty on either the Stalingrad or Kuban maps... German records are a bit spotty on this).

Su-2 (Were these at Kuban?)

Kharkiv KhAI-5/Neman R-10 (Some remained in secondary roles near Leningrad late in the war. I'm uncertain how many were in combat elsewhere though).

I-15

R-Z

MBR-2

 

Anglo/American aircraft of uncertain dispositions but likely in one of the above theatres:
Beaufighter Mk. VIC

Avenger
 

Axis Aircraft of uncertain dispositions but likely in one of the above theatres:
Bv-138 (SAGr.125 appears in some OOBs for Stalingrad, but the lists of bases only go as far east as Varna/Constanza and Sevastopol? Anyone have Black Cross Red Star Vol. 3?)

Ju 86P (Withdrawn by May 1943)

Fw-58 (used as a night bomber)

Go-244

Fi-156

Edited September 18, 2020 by Avimimus

[[DBS]Browning]

Yak and Mig and IL2 sub variants are missing from some theatres. Especially from Moscow.

[Eisenfaustus]

Ju87b2 for Moscow 

And Bf109g10 for Bodenplatte 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Eisenfaustus

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, [DBS]Browning said:

Yak and Mig and IL2 sub variants are missing from some theatres. Especially from Moscow.

 

Would that be some of the Yak-7 variants (7A; 7B late with Yak-9 style canopy)? ...and the Mig-1/Mig-3 (early)?

 

We're also missing a number of LaGG variants, correct? Both early series and later series with slats?

[357th_KW]

The A-26 was used by the 9th Air Force starting in October of 1944.  Two groups, the 386th and 391st were eventually based on our map in April of 1945 at A-92 and Y-29 respectively.  Later model A-20s (G,J, & K) all saw use with the 9th AF as well and would be applicable for both Normandy and Bodenplatte.

 

An earlier model P-38J would make a lot of sense for both 8th and 9th AF use in Normandy as well as early on in Bodenplatte.

 

On the German side the Bf109G-6/AS and G-14/AS were both important and widely used sub variants for Normandy and Bodenplatte respectively.

[ww2fighter20]

I made my own list through the last 2 years from my own research but also from posts by forummembers, often by members that know there history like Lukeff, Davesteu, BlackSix, enz, I am not sure from who is what though.

Aircraft are likely missing from the list, many of these would be transport/recon or other duties which aren’t represented in the game like nightfighters with radar.

I put an ? after aircraft I am not sure if they where on the map or at all nearby during the campaign, but I might also have some mistakes for the rest so feel free to correct me.

 

Moscow:

USSR:

- I-15

- I-15Bis

- I-153

- I-16 Early

- LaGG-3 Early

- Mig-3 Early

- P-40B/C

- Yak-1 Early

- Pe-3

- Su-2

- DB-3 Early

- DB-3F/IL-4

- SB-2 (Early and Late?)

- Yer-2 Early

- C-47

- Li-2

- AR-2?

- TB-3?

- R-5? (Recon)

- R-10? (Recon)

- R-Z? (Recon)

AXIS:

- Bf110 Early (C/D?)

- Hs123

- Ju87B-2

- Mc200

- Do17Z

- He111H-2/4

- Ju88A-5

- Fi156

- Hs126

- Fw189?

Stalingrad:

USSR:

- I-153

- LaGG-3-35

- Yak-1B Early

- Yak-7B Early

- Pe-3

- Su-2

- Boston III (DB-7B)

- DB-3F/IL-4

- C-47

- Li-2

- P-40B/C?

- P-40F?

- AR-2?

- B-25?

- SB-2?

- TB-3?

- R-5? (Recon)

- R-10? (Recon)

- R-Z? (Recon)

AXIS:

- Bf110F-2

- Hs123

- Ju87B-2

- Mc200

- Ju88A-5

- Blenheim MkI (Romanian)

- Do17 (Romanian)

- IAR-37 (Romanian)

- IAR-39 (Romanian)

- IAR-80 (Romanian)

- IAR-81 (Romanian)

- IAR JRS-79/SM-79 (Romanian)

- P.23B (Romanian)

- Potez 633 (Romanian)

- RWD-13 (Romanian)

- Fi156

- Fw189

- Hs126

- Fw200 (Airlift)

- He177 (Airlift)

- Ju86 (Airlift)

- Ju90 (Airlift)

- Ju290 (Airlift)

Kuban:

USSR:

- I-153

- LaGG-3-35

- LaGG-3-66

- La-5F

- P-39D-2

- P-39K-2

- P-39M-1

- P-39N-0

- P-40F

- P-40K

- Su-2

- A-20C (Torpedo)

- Boston III (DB-7B)

- DB-3F/IL-4

- Pe-2 Late

- Tu-2

- C-47

- Li-2

- MBR-2

- A-20G?

- Ar-2?

- Catalina/PBY?

- Pe-3?

- R-5? (Recon)

- R-10? (Recon)

- R-Z? (Recon)

AXIS:

- Hs123

- Ju87D-5

- Ju88A-5

- Ju52 Float

- Fi156

- Fw189

- Hs126

- Bf110F-2?

- Do217J?

- Ju87B-2?

- Ju88A-5?

- Ar196?

- He115?

- IAR-80/81? (Romanian)

- Other Romanian?

 

Normandy:

Allies:

- Beaufighter

- Gloster Meteor

- Seafire F/L.III 

- Spitfire L.Vb

- Spitfire IXc

- Typhoon IB Early

- P-38J-10/15 (Also with Droopsnoot)

- P-47D-15

- P-51D-5

- P-61A/B

- Avenger I/II

- Boston III (DB-7B)

- Boston IIIA (A-20C)

- A-20G-20/25

- A-20J/Boston IV

- B-26B

- Mitchell II (B-25D)

- Swordfish I/II/III

- C-47

- Short Stirling (Transport/Glider Transport/Paratrooper)

- Piper Cub

- Westland Lysander

- Hurricane IV?

AXIS:

- Bf109G-6AS

- Fw190A-7

- Ju87D-7/8

- Do217M-1

- He177 (Airfields outside the map)

- Ju88A-5

- Ju88A-17

- Ju88S-1

- Ju188A-2

- Ju188E-2

- Fi156

- Do217K?

- Fw189?

- Hs126?

Bodenplatte/Rheinland:

Allies:

- Gloster Meteor

- Mosquito NF

- Spitfire IXc

- P-38J-10/15 (Also with Droopsnoot)

- P-51D-5

- P-61A/B

- Boston III (DB-7B)

- Boston IIIA (A-20C)

- A-20G-20/25 (Airfields just outside the map)

- A-20J/Boston IV (Airfields just outside the map)

- A-26B (Airfields just outside the map)

- B-26B (Airfields just outside the map)

- Mitchell II (B-25D)

- Swordfish III (Airfields just outside the map)

- Wellington XIII (Coastal Command)

- C-47

- Short Stirling (Airfields outside the map) (Transport/Glider Transport/Paratrooper)

- Piper Cub

- Westland Lysander

- P-47D-15?

- P-47M-1?

- Mitchell III? (B-25J)

AXIS:

- Bf109G-14AS

- Bf109G-10

- Fw190A-9

- Ju-87D-7/8

- He111H-20 (Airfields outside the map) (V1 Carrier)

- Ju88S (Airfields outside the map)

[DD_Crash]

That should keep them busy

[Lusekofte]

I be happy if I got the DO 17

[41Sqn_Skipper]

On 9/4/2020 at 7:41 PM, Avimimus said:

 

Normandy (1943-1944):
....

 

Normandy (1942-1943)

....

 

Spitfire Vb (LF variant)

Spitfire Vc (F and LF variant)

Spitfire XII

[SCG_Faerber]

Macchi 200 should be moscow

[Avimimus]

  

1 hour ago, ww2fighter20 said:

I made my own list through the last 2 years from my own research but also from posts by forummembers, often by members that know there history like Lukeff, Davesteu, BlackSix, enz, I am not sure from who is what though.

 

Aircraft are likely missing from the list, many of these would be transport/recon or other duties which aren’t represented in the game like nightfighters with radar.

 

I put an ? after aircraft I am not sure if they where on the map or at all nearby during the campaign, but I might also have some mistakes for the rest so feel free to correct me.

 

...I'll take some time to integrate that list - I'm a bit intimidated but I appreciate the work.  I'll probably have to do some formatting split things into "new mainframes" vs. "subvariants"... just to keep things easy to read.

 

Also, if anyone can disprove a few of these aircraft... it'd shorten the list and make it less terrifying! ?

 

Everything else has been updated I think.

 

Any information on what aircraft were numerous (vs. operational in very small numbers) might also be valuable. One of the issues, though, is that sometimes aircraft that were produced in very large numbers only appeared in small numbers during the battle in question (e.g. most P-63 were used in the Pacific or the Russian Far East with only one or two groups reportedly finding their way to the push towards Berlin in '45). On the other hand, sometimes a small number of aircraft have an outsized effect. But it is good to distinguish between a few prototypes being tested versus hundreds of aircraft being used.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Avimimus

[357th_KW]

I also wanted to mention the British Auster and the US Grasshopper.  Both were used extensively throughout the Normandy and Bodenplatte periods as artillery spotters, and Luftwaffe fighters were often sent on sweeps specifically to target these aircraft.  

[EAF19_Marsh]

No Spit XIIs at Bodenplatten - not sure they ever left the UK at all, tbh.

[Avimimus]

14 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

No Spit XIIs at Bodenplatten - not sure they ever left the UK at all, tbh.

 

Glad I got that right!

 

One of the challenges with the Soviet aircraft is figuring out how quickly they declined in service. The I-153 and I-15 remained in ground-attack duties for a surprisingly long time, and it seems some remaining examples of the Kharkiv KhAI-5/Neman R-10 may have been used near Lenningrad for a time. But aircraft like the Yak-4 may have largely disappeared, as is the case with the Sukhoi Su-2 which faced attrition and wasn't being replaced with new aircraft. The SB-2 made up most of the bomber force in 1940 but would have been available in much smaller numbers after most were destroyed on the ground or suffered attrition in the open months... so questions like "How many SB-2 were available at Moscow?" become very relevant.

 

By the way... Does anyone have production numbers for Dornier 217 variants?

 

Stepped canopy:
E1 94 (1941)
E2 185 (1942)
E3/E4 258
E5 101
=605 as (some E5 were converted airframes from earlier variants)?

 

Unstepped canopy:
K1 220?
K2 730?
M1 438

 

Also, numbers for the Ju-88S would be of interest (compared to the 188).

Edited September 8, 2020 by Avimimus

[FoxbatRU]

Fw.189

[41Sqn_Skipper]

1 hour ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

No Spit XIIs at Bodenplatten - not sure they ever left the UK at all, tbh.

 

They were only used until September 1944 and only from UK airfields. 

 

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, FoxbatRU said:

Fw.189

 

Which theatre/map? I'm assuming they were used in Moscow, Stalingrad, and Kuban?

[FoxbatRU]

2 минуты назад, Avimimus сказал:

Which theatre/map? I'm assuming they were used in Moscow, Stalingrad, and Kuban?

I suppose so. At first they were not near Moscow (BoM), but in the end they began to appear.

[Y-29.Silky]

The Allies need a heavy bomber.

[Avimimus]

5 minutes ago, Y-29.Silky said:

The Allies need a heavy bomber.

 

This isn't exactly a wishlist thread though - more focused on awakening the nerds... what this thread could do with is information on when and where the bombers were etc. There are a bunch of aircraft I'd like (especially if profitability and technical hurdles didn't exist)... but I'm trying to keep the subjective out of this thread until we've got the history sorted out more.

 

27 minutes ago, FoxbatRU said:

I suppose so. At first they were not near Moscow (BoM), but in the end they began to appear.

 

I gather the Hs-126 would have been used? Was the Hs-126 still in use as an observer during Kuban - or had it been phased out?

Edited September 8, 2020 by Avimimus

[migmadmarine]

Don't forget the hellcat mk.I, martlet and Avenger from the FAA in normandy

[[DBS]Browning]

The Cierva C.30 may have been flying radar calibration sorties in Normandy's time frame also.

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

What about the aircraft in the channel before 1942?

When we get the Normandy map there is the possibility for earlier variants of the planes we already have, like Bf 109, Spitfire, Hurricane, He 111, Ju 88 etc.

Also Wellington and Blenheim as additional planes. 
 

You could pretty much cover from before the Battle of Britain up to after the Normandy invasion using the map (with slight variations for the years) and plane sets.

Maybe sell the BoB era planes as an aircraft pack (as a smaller DLC or Collector Planes match ups).
 

Or is it being left out to avoid an overlap with CloD? Or is it because the interest is lower for these earlier planes?

Edited September 9, 2020 by 9./JG52_J-HAT

[Heliopause]

The Albacore in use with Sqn 119  operating from the continent ( the Albacore being replaced early 1945 by the ....... Swordfish)

[EAF19_Marsh]

9 minutes ago, 9./JG52_J-HAT said:

What about the aircraft in the channel before 1942?

 

Certainly a potential side-route, but possibly restricted by what appears to be a gentleman's agreement with the Blitz team.

 

Appreciate that there is little likely revenue in such a project, but adding a couple of collectors' aircraft in the Fairy Battle and maybe 1 / 2 French tyopes would be amazing for both BoBp and BoN maps

[FoxbatRU]

09.09.2020 в 01:53, Avimimus сказал:

I gather the Hs-126 would have been used? Was the Hs-126 still in use as an observer during Kuban - or had it been phased out?

At least one plane from the II./LLG1 was shot down in the Kuban on March 19, 1943. Probably they could have stayed even later (for towing gliders).

 

But then you also need to add the DFS.230 and Go.242.

 

[Hirachi]

Don't forget the Me-210 and the Me-410.

[Elem]

3 minutes ago, 336th_Hirachi said:

Don't forget the Me-210 and the Me-410.

The 410 is coming with Normandy so it is not forgotten.

[forktailedflyer7]

We have 2 Velikiye Luki maps now so we might as well include that as a theater since we are including Kursch.

 

I know that VL was one of the first times the Tu-2 was deployed.  

 

Yeah it turns out that the first Tu-2 anywhere was deployed there in Nov 1942

Edited September 13, 2020 by dprumph33

[Avimimus]

On 9/9/2020 at 2:00 AM, migmadmarine said:

Don't forget the hellcat mk.I, martlet and Avenger from the FAA in normandy

 

Were they operated from land? I've deliberately left out ship launched aircraft and some coastal patrol aircraft (technical difficulties, like heavy bombers). Some land-based TBF Avengers should be active in 1944 on the Normandy map as a submarine hunter on the southern approaches to England I think...

[migmadmarine]

I know the TBFs are, not sure about the hellcats/martlets/seafires. 

[Avimimus]

On 9/9/2020 at 3:46 AM, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Certainly a potential side-route, but possibly restricted by what appears to be a gentleman's agreement with the Blitz team.

 

Appreciate that there is little likely revenue in such a project, but adding a couple of collectors' aircraft in the Fairy Battle and maybe 1 / 2 French tyopes would be amazing for both BoBp and BoN maps

 

 

Off-topic but...  

Edited September 11, 2020 by Avimimus

[EAF19_Marsh]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

 

 

Off-topic but...  

 

I am trying to make (slowly and with only self-taught understanding of the mission builder) a BoF campaign centred on the Army Group B attacks on the Dyle Line and towards Namur before the famous Sedan battles. I was looking at using our P-40s as H-75s, LaGG-3s as Me.406s and Pe-2s for the Potez. Obviously not perfect (though we do get a Hurri). BoBp map has quite a lot of the 1940 campaign area, with BoN adding much of the rest. Clearly a very low priority, but some French collector aircraft together with 1940 German variants would make great use of the existing terrain as a small add-on pack.

 

AFAIK the BoF has never really been covered which is a great shame.

Edited September 11, 2020 by EAF19_Marsh

[CUJO_1970]

Normandy is really missing P-47C and P-38F/G/H.

 

 

[RNAS10_Oliver]

11 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

Were they operated from land? I've deliberately left out ship launched aircraft and some coastal patrol aircraft (technical difficulties, like heavy bombers). Some land-based TBF Avengers should be active in 1944 on the Normandy map as a submarine hunter on the southern approaches to England I think...

The answer is no. The Martlets and Hellcats keep being brought up as suggestions for Battle of Normandy aircraft. These were aboard the three escort carriers that participated (Tracker, Emperor, Pursuer). But quite apart from them being carrier borne during the operation theres the issue that they were not used anywhere we have in game. The carriers and their aircraft were some 130 miles further west than Lands End. The in game Normandy map would need to be pushed westwards twice the size to even get Lands End in.

[migmadmarine]

The TBFs?

[Avimimus]

22 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

The TBFs?

 

Stationed in England I think... hunting submarines... alongside Hudsons, Wellingtons and other coastal-command aircraft.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Avimimus

[RNAS10_Oliver]

Do you mean the Avenger? Yes there were Avengers within the timeframe and area that Battle of Normandy is covering. These (Mark I and Mark II) were operating from shore bases. Also possible for shore based with the Fleet Air Arm in the area and timeframe for Battle of Normandy are Seafire L.III,  Seafire F.III, Spitfire L.Vb, Swordfish I and Swordfish III.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Oliver88

[SYN_Luftwaffles]

On 9/8/2020 at 5:48 PM, Y-29.Silky said:

The Allies need a heavy bomber.

I was literally saying the same today. Then I realized that mapmakers would just lock the loadouts like they do the 2800 kg bombs on the He 111. If that's the case, then there's no incentive to make or fly a heavy bomber as there isn't incentive to fly the He111, now.