Map question: are all roads in this game lined with trees?

[WokeUpDead]

I don't think I recall seeing a road in this game that didn't have trees on both sides. You'd think we were flying over some picturesque French countryside and not over Russian plains. Is there a game design reason for this, like to make strafing vehicles harder? Can we have some variety, some roads without trees next to them?

 

This would also make it easier to land on roads, which could add some interesting elements for mission designers, like for example landing a U2 on a road in a designated zone to drop off a saboteur; or landing on a road when out of gas and getting a smaller penalty for ditching an intact plane.

[69th_chuter]

 

Yeah, there are a lot of roads without trees ...

[40plus]

Historically accurate from what I gather

[ShamrockOneFive]

Accurate to the region (and many others) where you have flat terrain and blowing snow. The trees act as a wind and snow break and that diminishes the chances that your road becomes completely overtaken by snowdrifts.

 

They still do that in the modern day.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Volgograd,+Volgograd+Oblast,+Russia/@48.6498917,43.0516044,691m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x41053375b85b7667:0x880d179cce57da41!8m2!3d48.708048!4d44.5133034

[WokeUpDead]

17 minutes ago, chuter said:

 

Yeah, there are a lot of roads without trees ...

 

I could be wrong and I'm at my work computer now so I'll fly around and check later, but going from memory I don't ever recall strafing roads without having to pull out for trees, and I can never find a road without trees to land my damaged plane.

 

 

1 minute ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Accurate to the region (and many others) where you have flat terrain and blowing snow. The trees act as a wind and snow break and that diminishes the chances that your road becomes completely overtaken by snowdrifts.

 

They still do that in the modern day.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Volgograd,+Volgograd+Oblast,+Russia/@48.6498917,43.0516044,691m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x41053375b85b7667:0x880d179cce57da41!8m2!3d48.708048!4d44.5133034

 

Sure, maybe on most roads, but on all of them? (again, assuming I'm not making a fool out of myself here by overlooking many treeless roads in the game). Here's that same road near Volgograd (Stalingrad), about 50km west from the spot you chose: https://goo.gl/maps/jzXHjZUJXqbUcz9Q9

[ShamrockOneFive]

18 minutes ago, WokeUpDead said:

 

I could be wrong and I'm at my work computer now so I'll fly around and check later, but going from memory I don't ever recall strafing roads without having to pull out for trees, and I can never find a road without trees to land my damaged plane.

 

 

 

Sure, maybe on most roads, but on all of them? (again, assuming I'm not making a fool out of myself here by overlooking many treeless roads in the game). Here's that same road near Volgograd (Stalingrad), about 50km west from the spot you chose: https://goo.gl/maps/jzXHjZUJXqbUcz9Q9

 

They do make sure there's trees and shrubs and bush near pretty much all roads around here. Doesn't strike me as odd.

Edited August 28, 2020 by ShamrockOneFive

[[CPT]Crunch]

Up here in the northern great plains we only put tree rows among the fields, to catch snow and prevent erosion.  Worst snow plugged roads are along hill cuts and tree groves.  You put snow fence and tree belts several dozens of yards or more away from and before the ditches if you want to catch it to prevent it from plugging the tracks and roads.  We have strict laws that require land owners to cut the grass on the shoulders and ditches, and keep them tree and shrub free.  But than we get real wind and snow, not just on occasion. 

 

I might buy that reasoning if they put the trees only on the windward side, otherwise the reasoning contradicts itself.  You can't have trees on both sides of the road, with the claim they collect snow and prevent it from filling the road, since only one side could do it predominant wind dependent. 

[Jaegermeister]

There are some, are you referring to any particular map?

 

Maybe they just aren't where you want them to be.

 

 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

5 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Accurate to the region (and many others) where you have flat terrain and blowing snow.

Are you sure? I've researched the area a bit for a couple of tank missions I'm writing, and if you look at the photos the Germans took on their advance to Stalingrad, there aren't any trees in sight until they reach the very suburbs. Death of the Leaping Horseman by Jason D. Mark is a great source with lots of pictures, if you're interested. Or just search Wikimedia Commons for e.g. "Russland-Süd". A couple of examples from the latter source:

 

Quite a wide view, but not a single tree to be seen

What seems to be telegraph poles along a road. Again, no trees.

What seems to be some kind of dirt road (hard to tell though, it may simply be the tracks of countless of Panzers that went before). No trees in sight.

A treeless village, probably in the Kalmyk steppes.

A Kalmyk(?) woman leading a span of camels along a seemingly treeless road.

 

There's also a photo in Death of the Leaping Horseman of a captured Soviet armoured train near Basargino 20km west of Stalingrad. There's not a single tree to be seen anywhere near the railway, while in-game both the same railway and the roads that flank it are lined with trees. That proves that at least some of the roads near Stalingrad are wrongly lined with trees in-game.

Edited August 29, 2020 by AEthelraedUnraed

[[CPT]Crunch]

Probably a land ownership issue more than a planned effort.  If the state owns all the right of way and there's little to no private ownership of land, who's going to bother to clean out the scrub growing in the ditches and road right of way, nobody. 

[WokeUpDead]

4 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

There are some, are you referring to any particular map?

 

Maybe they just aren't where you want them to be.

 

 

 

I couldn't find any on the Stalingrad map, I'd expect some roads without trees there because it's flat plains everywhere. Most roads appear to be without trees when they are far away, I even see forests behind them and no trees by the road. But then when I get close, trees start appearing on both sides of the road.

[Feathered_IV]

3 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

 

 

Quite a wide view, but not a single tree to be seen

What seems to be telegraph poles along a road. Again, no trees.

What seems to be some kind of dirt road (hard to tell though, it may simply be the tracks of countless of Panzers that went before). No trees in sight.

A treeless village, probably in the Kalmyk steppes.

A Kalmyk(?) woman leading a span of camels along a seemingly treeless road.

Crikey.  Pretty tough trying to be a partisan out there. 

[69th_chuter]

 

Kuban map, 0422 region.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

5 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Probably a land ownership issue more than a planned effort.  If the state owns all the right of way and there's little to no private ownership of land, who's going to bother to clean out the scrub growing in the ditches and road right of way, nobody. 

From Wikipedia:

Quote

In physical geography, a steppe (Russian: степь, IPA: [stʲepʲ]) is an ecoregion characterized by grassland plains without trees apart from those near rivers and lakes.

There aren't any trees because they don't grow there except near water. Period.

 

I'm not a fan of communism myself, but you can't blame everything on them and just assume that because something is different from where you live, it's because of them.

 

1 hour ago, chuter said:

Kuban map, 0422 region.

Yes, there are roads without trees in game, also on the Stalingrad map (e.g. the road+railway southwest of Kuzmichi airfield). Which is why I don't understand why they didn't draw most roads without trees.

[Uufflakke]

Years ago we had the same discussion about roads lined up along roads.

Can't remember though what the general consensus was.

Searching for the discussion is like a needle in a haystack*.

 

*Haystacks! That is what we need as an object. A simple way to suggest human activity on maps.

Just like on the IL2:1946 Slovakia map.

 

 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

Just now, Uufflakke said:

Years ago we had the same discussion about roads lined up along roads.

Can't remember though what the general consensus was.

Searching for the discussion is like a needle in a haystack*.

Is this the one? https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/31538-stalingrad-area-from-the-air-or-so-many-durn-trees/

 

 

The consensus seems to be that yes, there are too many trees, but it makes the map more interesting.

Now we're a couple of years ahead and we've got lots of maps to choose from, I doubt that argument is still valid. I personally don't think so. Ceterum censeo arbores esse delendam.

 

Just now, Uufflakke said:

*Haystacks! That is what we need as an object. A simple way to suggest human activity on maps.

Just like on the IL2:1946 Slovakia map.

There is a haystack object ?

(although admittedly the two smaller haystacks on the right belong to an object group and are regrettably not available stand-alone ?)

 

[[CPT]Crunch]

5 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

From Wikipedia:

There aren't any trees because they don't grow there except near water. Period.

 

I'm not a fan of communism myself, but you can't blame everything on them and just assume that because something is different from where you live, it's because of them.

 

Yes, there are roads without trees in game, also on the Stalingrad map (e.g. the road+railway southwest of Kuzmichi airfield). Which is why I don't understand why they didn't draw most roads without trees.

It has nothing to do with communism, some land just isn't viable for production, so no one takes care of it, especially the state when it can't tax anyone over it.

[WokeUpDead]

12 hours ago, chuter said:

 

Kuban map, 0422 region.

 

Ah, yes, there's one. OK, so it is possible to have them.

[Yogiflight]

Funny thing is, the trees you have aside these roads are directly at the roads, but when you see roads through forrests, the distance of the trees at the one side of the road to the trees at the other side of the road is about 20meters. IRL the trees are next to the road, too. Same for railroads through forrests.

And, yes, in the Russian Steppe there should be many more roads without trees aside of them. This is more something near towns. It surely was different in the Moscow area, with forrests all over the area, or even the Kuban area in the cultivated regions. But even here in the areas without agriculture, the roads surely didn't have trees aside, like on the pic above.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I don't know about how it works today in Europe, but in the US trees directly along the side of the roads are generally removed as the safety hazard that they are.  It was not so 40 to 50 years ago and earlier.  Trees within a few feet of the roadside were quite normal, especially in the eastern US, and from what I remember in Britain and France.  So in areas where forests are common, yes, the trees should be there.  On the Russian steppe, I don't think so.

 

Somewhere in Ohio, in the very early days of the motorcar.   From a lecture I gave on how the Automobile changed the leisure time habits of the US.

Edited August 30, 2020 by BlitzPig_EL

[Bremspropeller]

Avenues ("Allee") are still very, very common for B-roads in Germany.

 

There's actually a rather well known scenic route, connecting the Baltic Sea with Lake Constance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Avenue_Road

 

[unreasonable]

On the Soviet maps at least, given two mud seasons a year and the need for armies to move large amounts of supplies down earth roads, if there were trees by the side of the road in otherwise little forested areas when the armies moved in, I doubt they would be there for long. They would be used for corduroy on the worst patches.

 

  

Edited August 30, 2020 by unreasonable

[sevenless]

9 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Avenues ("Allee") are still very, very common for B-roads in Germany.

 

There's actually a rather well known scenic route, connecting the Baltic Sea with Lake Constance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Avenue_Road

 

 

Right. And it was common, and in many regions it still is common, to plant fruit trees on both sides of the roads. All of the kind of apple, pear, cherry, plums and mirabelle trees were most frequent back then.

[DD_Arthur]

Walk down any country road in the UK and if you have a poke around in the hedge you’ll find the stump of a large tree every fifty metres or so.  We used to do the avenue of trees thing but in 1945,  to assist with the massive post war reconstruction we were faced with the government offered £10 per trunk to farmers to hack down their trees.  That tenner represented around two weeks average wage at the time.   Bye bye trees?

[AEthelraedUnraed]

6 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

On the Soviet maps at least, given two mud seasons a year and the need for armies to move large amounts of supplies down earth roads, if there were trees by the side of the road in otherwise little forested areas when the armies moved in, I doubt they would be there for long. They would be used for corduroy on the worst patches. 

After the surrounding of Stalingrad the Germans in the steppes had to drive to the city to scavenge the ruins for wood from destroyed furniture to use as fuel.

 

Kinda breaks immersion if you fly near Stalingrad in December 1942 and there's enough wood to build a whole damn Eiffel tower with.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Interesting to see how the bocage is modelled in BoN. Not just trees, but giant medieval hedges.