Am I the only one who doesn't really like VR?

[SharpeXB]

17 minutes ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

 

I already said my opinion above and that is nothing to do with suggestion that point being  is IRL you would not be able to do this.

Another way would be something like darken the screen if attempting a rear look , something like currently in game to simulate the difficulty in looking back under high g load.

That would be artificial and people would hate it. You’re just trying to bring others down to your handicap in a VR headset. Again it’s your hardware choice. Try backing up your car some day and see how it’s possible to look behind you when you aren’t wearing a VR scuba mask.  

[=RS=Stix_09]

23 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That would be artificial and people would hate it. You’re just trying to bring others down to your handicap in a VR headset. Again it’s your hardware choice. Try backing up your car some day and see how it’s possible to look behind you when you aren’t wearing a VR scuba mask.  

 

You really should read previous posts...

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/64803-am-i-the-only-one-who-doesnt-really-like-vr/?do=findComment&comment=1005540

ive had my say so have you , enuff said

[BornToBattle]

Now VR tech with the VR gloves on would be awesome. I think the devs here mentioned that way back when in one of their interviews as a wishlist of theirs. You’d literally see the switch or say flap lever and be able to reach it and operate it as you would in real life.

 

But to answer the OP’s original question, no. Haven’t given up on VR and in fact given it’s negative traits (especially in IL-2 with having to commit and remember actions committed to the keyboard instead of clickable cockpit) for me still doesn't outweigh the immersion level. I held out for the longest time before buying the old original Rift since I was so sold on my 42” 4K monitor and the graphical enhancements IL-2 continually brought on. But the first time I slipped the Rift on and felt like I wanted to slide across my seat some while banking the Spitfire I was sold. 

 

You do have some valid points though sir and I can relate to them. Kind of like “I say pah-tay-toe you say pah-tah-toe” sorta thing. To each his own when it comes to weighing things out. I’m just hooked on flying with VR to the point my pre-order for the new G2 is in. 
 

I accepted the fact a long time ago that I’ll never be able to get my PPL let alone anything further out from that, so VR is the closest experience I’ll ever get to being a pilot let alone fly these rare birds IRL.

Edited October 12, 2020 by BornToBattle

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, BornToBattle said:

Now VR tech with the VR gloves on would be awesome. I think the devs here mentioned that way back when in one of their interviews as a wishlist of theirs. You’d literally see the switch or say flap lever and be able to reach it and operate it as you would in real life.

You might be mistaken because 1CGS has repeatedly stated that clickable cockpits will never be a feature in this sim. 

[BornToBattle]

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You might be mistaken because 1CGS has repeatedly stated that clickable cockpits will never be a feature in this sim. 

This was in February 2019. From a interview segment with SHAMROCKONEFIVE...

 

VR has become a selling point for serious combat simulators like IL-2. What do you see in the future for VR?

Jason: “I predict higher res units, but difficulties with framerates. I hope, hope, hope there are some tricks we can use to boost framerates at higher resolutions.” 

Daniel: “As I’ve said above – for VR it is very important to have wider field of view which will allow you to full-use of peripheral vision. Also, virtual gloves technology is a great perspective.”

https://stormbirds.blog/2019/02/06/part-1-an-interview-with-jason-williams-and-daniel-tuseev-il-2-great-battles-series/

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by BornToBattle

[SharpeXB]

9 hours ago, BornToBattle said:

This was in February 2019. From a interview segment with SHAMROCKONEFIVE...

 

VR has become a selling point for serious combat simulators like IL-2. What do you see in the future for VR?

Jason: “I predict higher res units, but difficulties with framerates. I hope, hope, hope there are some tricks we can use to boost framerates at higher resolutions.” 

Daniel: “As I’ve said above – for VR it is very important to have wider field of view which will allow you to full-use of peripheral vision. Also, virtual gloves technology is a great perspective.”

https://stormbirds.blog/2019/02/06/part-1-an-interview-with-jason-williams-and-daniel-tuseev-il-2-great-battles-series/

Clickable cockpits are still way out of reach for this series. DCS for example has 6 WWII aircraft and those take almost two years each to develop, IL-2 can make an entire theater along with a dozen aircraft in the same period. IL-2 has, what? 50 aircraft? So clickable cockpits are just infeasible for a sim like this. Don’t fool yourself, click pit aircraft along with their full systems are very expensive. 

Plus click pits in WWII are really just used to start the aircraft. Once that’s done you’ll hardly use them. And most DCS players don’t even startup their aircraft, probably 3/4 of them just use the auto-start keys. It’s so funny people in this sim ask for this feature when players in the game that has it don’t use it. 
Then VR gloves don't really work, check the discussion in DCS.

Finally the VR fad itself is probably dying so 1CGS shouldn’t put tremendous effort into this unless it has staying power. 

[HunDread]

17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Finally the VR fad itself is probably dying

 

You're in a mood for a fight again huh?

 

Other than this I agree with your points on clickable cockpits and VR gloves. I couldn't care less for this feature and would probably not use it if it was implemented.

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, HunDread said:

 

You're in a mood for a fight again huh?

So I’m not optimistic when it comes to VR. ?

The the biggest flight sim launch in history didn’t even plan to have VR, that’s not an encouraging sign. 

You also don’t see any of the headset makers going fully “next gen”, the only new headset is the Reverb G2, everyone else including Oculus has bailed out of PCVR it seems. 

[Dagwoodyt]

20 minutes ago, HunDread said:

 

You're in a mood for a fight again huh?

 

Other than this I agree with your points on clickable cockpits and VR gloves. I couldn't care less for this feature and would probably not use it if it was implemented.

I don't see the benefit of clickable cockpits for flatscreen or VR. For flatscreen there is often a conflict with TIR in which TIR loses its' mind if I look too far down or to the side in the cockpit. It is easier to use VoiceAttack for some features such as supercharger and manual landing gear controls. Even where controls are reachable without TIR conflict clickable controls seem crude vs. operating via controller levers.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Dagwoodyt

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I don't see the benefit of clickable cockpits for flatscreen or VR.

Clickable cockpits definitely have a use in more complex aircraft and for “study sim” type games where having lots of aircraft isn’t a priority. But for WWII and for a “combat” game that needs many opposing aircraft, click pits are infeasible. . 

[HunDread]

30 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So I’m not optimistic when it comes to VR. ?

The the biggest flight sim launch in history didn’t even plan to have VR, that’s not an encouraging sign. 

You also don’t see any of the headset makers going fully “next gen”, the only new headset is the Reverb G2, everyone else including Oculus has bailed out of PCVR it seems. 

 

To be fair, I couldn't care less for the biggest flight sim in history either

[messsucher]

Not interested of clickable cockpits. Sure they are cool and fun when cruising alone or sitting on an airfield, but that's about it in WW1/2 game.

[Ribbon]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

So I’m not optimistic when it comes to VR. ?

The the biggest flight sim launch in history didn’t even plan to have VR, that’s not an encouraging sign. 

You also don’t see any of the headset makers going fully “next gen”, the only new headset is the Reverb G2, everyone else including Oculus has bailed out of PCVR it seems. 

And yet you are here in VR section, being quite active and frequent warrior on VR subjects ??

 

"The biggest flight sim in history" maybe didn't include it on launch becouse it barely run it at 45fps with 2080ti on 1080p monitor.

However later they said VR implementation is in the works.

Second, all other modern driving, space and flight sims go for VR support....it become standard for seated games.

Not to mention popular AAA games like fallout new vegas, Skyrim and some others that got VR support while many others AAA being developed from the start with VR implementation.

Third, only Oculus (now facebook) dropped pure PCVR and opted for all-in-one Quest2 that also runs good on pc via link cable, aiming to provide afordable product for wast majority.

No other VR companies bailed PCVR!

 

I don't know reasons why are you so heated on VR subject but seems VR is your obsession!?

Edited October 13, 2020 by =VARP=Ribbon

[BornToBattle]

Simply stated what he Daniel had said without trying to hack it apart and dissect it. Personally I could care less if IL2 had clickable cockpits as I wasn’t looking for yet another thread dissolving into that debate yet again.
 

I knew I had seen or read it somewheres, hence my evidence. Whether you like VR or not is irrelevant.

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by BornToBattle

[dburne]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

So I’m not optimistic when it comes to VR. ?

The the biggest flight sim launch in history didn’t even plan to have VR, that’s not an encouraging sign. 

You also don’t see any of the headset makers going fully “next gen”, the only new headset is the Reverb G2, everyone else including Oculus has bailed out of PCVR it seems. 

 

I would beg to differ, obviously you are very much interested and enthralled with VR as you spend so much time in the VR forum for IL-2.

You can't get away from it.

The "biggest flight sim in history" is hard at work implementing VR which should be available around the Reverb G2 ( a new device) shipping. 

 

Go ahead, you know you want to - place that Reverb G2 order. The water has been tested and is fine. Just ask MS lol.

Edited October 13, 2020 by dburne

[SharpeXB]

28 minutes ago, HunDread said:

 

To be fair, I couldn't care less for the biggest flight sim in history either

Seriously?! This is the biggest boost the genre could ever hope for. It’s actually #4 on the PC game sales chart! Yes a flight simulator is now the game everyone wants. It’s outselling Red Dead Redemption 2 and Doom or whatever. It’s causing shortages and price hikes of PC flight controllers. And all those millions of buyers will certainly check out the combat flight sims too. And for VR it might well be the killer app that this tech has been waiting for. If only MSFS had actually been designed for VR which it wasn’t. Microsoft didn’t even consider it to be a thing. Xbox has no VR headset at all. Now they‘are trying to put VR into MSFS and if it works? And delivers a quality experience? Then VR gets a gigantic boost. There will have to be some super magical increase in performance for that to happen though. MSFS is the new Crysis and asking it to run in VR will be daunting. 

[Creep]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Finally the VR fad itself is probably dying so 1CGS shouldn’t put tremendous effort into this unless it has staying power. 

ok boomer

[SharpeXB]

19 minutes ago, =VARP=Ribbon said:

And yet you are here in VR section, being quite active and frequent warrior on VR subjects ??

 

I know... tech train wrecks are just compelling to follow. Like HD DVD and 3D TVs... ?

[Ribbon]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

I know... tech train wrecks are just compelling to follow. Like HD DVD and 3D TVs... ?

You don't have money for VR or you can't use it from health reasons or motion sickness?

[SharpeXB]

20 minutes ago, =VARP=Ribbon said:

 

"The biggest flight sim in history" maybe didn't include it on launch becouse it barely run it at 45fps with 2080ti on 1080p monitor.

That’s certainly the case with performance. I can’t see how this will run in VR

But their initial direction on VR wasn’t due to performance challenges, they simply didn’t see it as something their customers wanted. 

[HunDread]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Seriously?! This is the biggest boost the genre could ever hope for. It’s actually #4 on the PC game sales chart! Yes a flight simulator is now the game everyone wants. It’s outselling Red Dead Redemption 2 and Doom or whatever. It’s causing shortages and price hikes of PC flight controllers. And all those millions of buyers will certainly check out the combat flight sims too. And for VR it might well be the killer app that this tech has been waiting for. If only MSFS had actually been designed for VR which it wasn’t. Microsoft didn’t even consider it to be a thing. Xbox has no VR headset at all. Now they‘are trying to put VR into MSFS and if it works? And delivers a quality experience? Then VR gets a gigantic boost. There will have to be some super magical increase in performance for that to happen though. MSFS is the new Crysis and asking it to run in VR will be daunting. 

 

Seriously. (Sorry)

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, =VARP=Ribbon said:

You don't have money for VR or you can't use it from health reasons or motion sickness?

Oh I can buy anything I want for gaming. Price isn’t an object. I’ve tried the headsets and my impression on motions sickness was that I didn’t feel any. 
Although a great way to make your clients barf is put them in a conference room and let them watch the screen. ?

[messsucher]

VR set has become part of my setup like a monitor, mouse, controller.

[simfan2015]

I am still playing this sim on a 43" monitor ... however ...

I am quite sure the HP Reverb G2 will be as easy to buy as the ... RTX 3080/3090 ... meaning, IMHO, the VR headset will be sold out for months (just like the Valve Index ...).

Killer Apps such as Alex and now Star Wars : Squadrons and ... FS2020 of course, work wonders !

The Performance problems as well as the headset weight and other issues will be sorted out in a few years.

VR is no 3D TV ... for sims I would gladly trade my 4K monitor for a PIMAX 8K ! 

[SharpeXB]

21 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

Killer Apps such as Alex and now Star Wars : Squadrons and ... FS2020 of course, work wonders !

Ok.. what statistics would support that conclusion?
Look at an affordable headset like the PSVR. Yes it’s sold about 5 million units but considering that there are a hundred million PS4s out there, that’s an attach rate of only 5%. The Kinect had an attachment rate of 32% and still flopped. 
For PC VR it’s not the cost of the headset which is much of an obstacle although it’s still too high, it’s the cost of the PC to run it. Hence the fact that the largest selling device is the Quest.

But so far there has been no killer app that compels buyers to drop such cash on VR. The games are just dull. Sure IL-2 is great but this is a tiny niche game. And the lineup of VR games consisted of really dumb stuff like Office Simulator.
Now if a big title like MSFS is the sort of thing that finally makes customers say oh $#@& I gotta have that! Ok now that’s a big deal

If only the Xbox has an XBVR or something. And if the game actually runs in VR on something less than the most powerful machine anyone can afford. 
But that’s not the case.  If you’re Microsoft, how do you see this as anything else but another Kinect?

Edited October 13, 2020 by SharpeXB

[dburne]

There have been several killer apps.

Your argument is so 2016.

Stop living in the past, it is not healthy.

Neither is getting yourself worked up over something you have no interest in.

Edited October 13, 2020 by dburne

[Dagwoodyt]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Clickable cockpits definitely have a use in more complex aircraft and for “study sim” type games where having lots of aircraft isn’t a priority. But for WWII and for a “combat” game that needs many opposing aircraft, click pits are infeasible. . 

For flatscreen in Blitz use I find TIR conflicts to be very annoying when activating various cockpit controls so I use VoiceAttack to bypass "click" controls. Even where there is no conflict with TIR "click" controls are so finicky as to detract from immersion. I don't see how there would be a benefit to using  "click" control in VR.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Dagwoodyt

[simfan2015]

57 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

For PC VR it’s not the cost of the headset which is much of an obstacle although it’s still too high, it’s the cost of the PC to run it.

I do agree with most of your arguments, including the above.

But I do believe both PC hardware as well as VR headsets (or wharever it evolves into, glasses, googles, brain implants ...) will overcome most problems you mentioned in the not so near future.

VR / AR is the future ... I have no doubt about it.

Even if VR / AR as we know it today would vanish it will surely re-appear in later in one (hardware/software) form or the other.

People love immersive gaming and that is what VR seems to offer even today and who knows what the next technological revolution may bring !?

I never doubted that VR introduction would take a while and come in ups and downs, but in the end I believe *all* gaming will be VR/AR enabled !

Edited October 13, 2020 by simfan2015

[SharpeXB]

13 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

People love immersive gaming and that is what VR seems to offer even today

Do they? How does a 5% attach rate lead you to that conclusion? Or 2% of Steam users having VR hardware? I get it that this particular game is fun for some people in VR but the overall picture doesn’t look encouraging. 
Now if MSFS makes VR work in a quality way. And I mean a quality experience with no gut wrenching frame rates, poor graphics and artifacts. 
That’s a big deal for the tech. But it would have to be big enough to convince MS that yet another add-on for the Xbox would succeed where so far they’ve all failed like the Kinect and HD DVD player. 

[messsucher]

1 hour ago, Dagwoodyt said:

For flatscreen in Blitz use I find TIR conflicts to be very annoying when activating various cockpit controls so I use VoiceAttack to bypass "click" controls. Even where there is no conflict with TIR "click" controls are so finicky as to detract from immersion. I don't see how there would be a benefit to using  "click" control in VR.

 

Pretty much this. I have lighthouses which are yelled to be bad and hated, but I love them. Was very easy to setup and get stunning tracking. No more TrackIR hiccups, EVER!

[HunDread]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Do they? How does a 5% attach rate lead you to that conclusion? Or 2% of Steam users having VR hardware? I get it that this particular game is fun for some people in VR but the overall picture doesn’t look encouraging. 
Now if MSFS makes VR work in a quality way. And I mean a quality experience with no gut wrenching frame rates, poor graphics and artifacts. 
That’s a big deal for the tech. But it would have to be big enough to convince MS that yet another add-on for the Xbox would succeed where so far they’ve all failed like the Kinect and HD DVD player. 

 

Based on your method of reading statistic 4K gaming is dying.

 

[simfan2015]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

How does a 5% attach rate lead you to that conclusion? Or 2% of Steam users having VR hardware? 

The reason for the still low rate of VR users is what you mentioned ... VR not yet ready, not all games have it ... yet, and the PC config price for entry is stellar.

But none of this means it is going to vanish now or any day !

If people think they may need it and once commodities mature and become affordable they *will* get it ... think about cars, airco's, color television .... PCs and VR !? 

[SharpeXB]

40 minutes ago, HunDread said:

Based on your method of reading statistic 4K gaming is dying.

4K isn’t a special format or an add-on to a game console. 

41 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

The reason for the still low rate of VR users is what you mentioned ... VR not yet ready, not all games have it ...

It’s impossible to design a game to perform perfectly in both 2D and VR. Since VR is roughly 3x as demanding. You’d either have to limit the 2D version or limit the 3D version. Then there’s a whole range of other playability issues. So only games specifically designed for VR are going to be ideal for it. With 2% of the market share you’ve got a chicken and egg dilemma for anyone making VR content. 

45 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

think about cars, airco's, color television .... PCs and VR !? 

Or HD DVD, the Kinect, mini discs, 3D TVs, Laserdiscs, Sega Virtual Boy...

Edited October 13, 2020 by SharpeXB

[RedRider]

I don't understand how anyone can not like VR.

 

Don't like the performance? That's understandable.

Don't like the visual fidelilty? That's understandable.

Don't like the cost to max it out? That's understandable.

But not liking it because you just don't enjoy stereoscopic gaming and the massive increase in immersion brought with 1-1 head tracking? That's absurd.

 

FS2020 will disappoint in VR if you are expecting the same visuals as what's currently provided w/monitor display. But I don't care, I want to be "in" the cockpit! 

[Alonzo]

18 hours ago, BornToBattle said:

Jason: “I predict higher res units, but difficulties with framerates. I hope, hope, hope there are some tricks we can use to boost framerates at higher resolutions.”

 

Single-pass stereo. DX12 or Vulcan to better utilize multithreaded CPUs. Killer graphics cards which can crank more pixels.

 

Regarding FS2020, that thing is a bit of a trainwreck from a technical perspective. I'm not going to directly address he-who-loves-to-troll but the fact that it didn't have VR at launch says absolutely nothing about the future of VR, it just speaks to two things: the development and optimization roadmap for that title (can't get much better than 60 FPS due to hot-thread bottleneck) and the mainstream flight sim community. That community has been building physical simulators for a long time. Commercial flight sims do not have VR, they have gigantic moving cabinets with full-scale dials and switches. VR just hasn't intersected very well with GA flying, that's the reason FS2020 didn't include it at launch.

 

Please everyone, stop feeding the troll. He's a regular here, spouts a bunch of ill-informed crap and watches as we all try to argue how wonderful VR is. VR stands on its own. The vast majority of people who have tried it think it's amazing. The internet is a big place, you can find flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers, conspiracy nuts, and people who think VR is a 'fad'. I don't engage with flat-earthers, it's patently a waste of time.

[TWC_NINja]

17 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

VR stands on its own. The vast majority of people who have tried it think it's amazing. The internet is a big place, you can find flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers, conspiracy nuts, and people who think VR is a 'fad'. I don't engage with flat-earthers, it's patently a waste of time.

 

? Couldn't agree more...

[SharpeXB]

You’re hilarious ^
The thread title asks “Am I the only one who doesn't really like VR?” So it’s asking for something other than all positive responses. It’s not trolling to respond to a thread topic. 

 

I’m not saying I don’t “like” it. I just don’t think it has a future or will ever perform well in these sims. I’ll be happy to get proved wrong. Then maybe I’ll try it. 

51 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

DX12 or Vulcan to better utilize multithreaded CPUs. .

Dreaming... hey let’s see if DX12 triples the CPU performance of MSFS. Because I’m getting like 24fps at JFK at even the lowest settings. 

[dburne]

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You’re hilarious ^
The thread title asks “Am I the only one who doesn't really like VR?” So it’s asking for something other than all positive responses. It’s not trolling to respond to a thread topic. 

 

I’m not saying I don’t “like” it. I just don’t think it has a future or will ever perform well in these sims. I’ll be happy to get proved wrong. Then maybe I’ll try it. 

 

Suggest you consider what your definition of "proven wrong" is regarding a sim performing well in VR.

 

I know my system performs quite well on a monitor. Why? Because I have done it.

I know my system performs quite well in VR. Why? Because I have done it.

 

There are many reasons why one may not care for VR and prefer monitor. Same as there are many reasons why VR users might not care for using the 

monitor after going for VR. 

 

What is a bit hypocritical is when a user that has not flown the sim in VR for any length of time and does not own a headset  to say VR for flight sims is not good and will not perform well.

You and I have discussed previously on more than one occasion how my rig does with IL-2 Great Battles so am not going there again.

The only way one knows if VR is for them is to take the plunge and get a headset, and put a little time into it and actually try it with the games they like to play.

I am still spending around 20 hours or so a week gaming in VR and loving every minute of it. At the same time I have much respect for those that do give it and decide it is

not currently for them.

 

Even with how far it has come so far, VR is still obviously not for everyone. But it is for enough that is is supported and supported quite well.

And big name titles are still coming out with VR support.

 

 

[SharpeXB]

55 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

the fact that it didn't have VR at launch says absolutely nothing about the future of VR

It says a lot

If MSFS can support VR well then it’s about the most gigantic boost this tech could get. It would move VR from niche games right up to the top of the chart!

The reason it wasn’t supported at launch has nothing to do with cockpit builders ? this isn’t a professional cockpit simulator, it’s an Xbox game (which yeah will eventually get pro use I’m sure)

“It honestly wasn't our plan, but we are listening, and we heard it, so we will try our darnedest to make it happen” was what they had to say

The most likely reason is that VR isn’t supported in the Xbox because they don’t see as being worthwhile (yet?)

https://www.windowscentral.com/will-xbox-series-x-support-virtual-reality-vr

[Alonzo]

19 minutes ago, dburne said:

What is a bit hypocritical is when a user that has not flown the sim in VR for any length of time and does not own a headset  to say VR for flight sims is not good and will not perform well.

 

You know, Don, something a wise farmer once said is appropriate here: Never wrestle a pig. You just get muddy and the pig enjoys it.