Flash Card issue with Bf-109 E7 - leads to engine destruction

[Warmoer]

I fired up the full mission builder to get the chance to practice start ups. I added a Bf-109 E7 Tropic, cold. I follow the flash card which recommends starting the aircraft with propeller in manual mode with the prop indicator in the 12:00 o'clock position; the requires the prop lever to be in the down position. All goes well until the final point on the list that states to set the propeller pitch to 'Auto' once 300 km/h has been achieved. Once this is done however, the automatic prop rpm setting is well above the red line with an ata of 1.2 or less, resulting in the destruction of the engine about a minute after take-off. This is with water and oil radiators full open, and never exceeding an ata of 1.2.

I have since worked out that I need to manually adjust the prop rpm to the red line before engaging automatic prop. The automatic propeller system will now govern the pitch correctly and not destroy the engine in the process. I don't know how accurate this is, but it works for me. The problem is that the Flash Card instructions result in a guaranteed destruction of the engine. Did I missing something, or is there a prop management step missing from the Flash Card?

[ATAG_Ezzie]

4 minutes ago, Warmoer said:

I fired up the full mission builder to get the chance to practice start ups. I added a Bf-109 E7 Tropic, cold. I follow the flash card which recommends starting the aircraft with propeller in manual mode with the prop indicator in the 12:00 o'clock position; the requires the prop lever to be in the down position. All goes well until the final point on the list that states to set the propeller pitch to 'Auto' once 300 km/h has been achieved. Once this is done however, the automatic prop rpm setting is well above the red line with an ata of 1.2 or less, resulting in the destruction of the engine about a minute after take-off. This is with water and oil radiators full open, and never exceeding an ata of 1.2.

I have since worked out that I need to manually adjust the prop rpm to the red line before engaging automatic prop. The automatic propeller system will now govern the pitch correctly and not destroy the engine in the process. I don't know how accurate this is, but it works for me. The problem is that the Flash Card instructions result in a guaranteed destruction of the engine. Did I missing something, or is there a prop management step missing from the Flash Card?

Hi Warmoer,

 

Thanks for the feedback.  I'm from the flashcard team and we'll take a look at this. This is from the F-2 flashcard and i think - but need to consult with the team - that a similar instruction should be in the E-7.

 

'Reduce prop pitch to at least 1130 on clock (4) and then set to ‘Auto’ mode. Ensure pitch changes with changing throttle setting.'

 

Thanks for letting us know.

 

Ezzie

[Warmoer]

Thanks Ezzie; I did not even check the other 109 variants ?

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

The automatic mode on 109/110 seems to be very keen to keep rpm on the high side. If I use continuous power(D on gauges) the rpm easily goes to 30min or higher setting. No idea how the reduction gears have been modelled though. Different values for engines used on 109 and 110, at least with DB601 series. 

[ATAG_Ezzie]

5 hours ago, Warmoer said:

Thanks Ezzie; I did not even check the other 109 variants ?

Hi again Warmoer,

 

Our flashcard team has taken a look and several of them have followed the procedure as outlined in the flashcard and it worked fine for them. So we arent sure what was happening but it seems you have it sorted now. We'll keep an eye out for any others who may have similar issues though.

 

If you have any other issues pls let us know.

 

Thanks

 

Ezzie

[Warmoer]

Hi Ezzie,

 

I am finding this all very strange, and this is something I will need to test more. I experienced this issue in a single player mission that I built with the Full Mission Builder. I will see if I can reproduce it, and if so I will submit my mission file to the dev team. 

I logged into a multiplayer session last night (Tobruk) and spawned the E7 Tropical again. The startup went perfect this time and interestingly, the automatic propeller control seemed to work as it should (by not over-revving the propeller). I was gently climbing out with an ata and rpm well below the redline, with oil and water radiators fully open, and the aircraft started shaking and vibrating like crazy. I tried to troubleshoot the issue; temperatures were ok, nothing appeared to be in the red, but it felt like the engine was going to blow up. I quit the mission out of frustration and left the server as I could not work out what was going wrong. This was the second time that I took up the E7 Tropical in a multiplayer session, and the exact same thing happened the first time - the engine packed up shortly after take-off.

 

I will see if I can reproduce this.

[ATAG_Ezzie]

44 minutes ago, Warmoer said:

Hi Ezzie,

 

I am finding this all very strange, and this is something I will need to test more. I experienced this issue in a single player mission that I built with the Full Mission Builder. I will see if I can reproduce it, and if so I will submit my mission file to the dev team. 

I logged into a multiplayer session last night (Tobruk) and spawned the E7 Tropical again. The startup went perfect this time and interestingly, the automatic propeller control seemed to work as it should (by not over-revving the propeller). I was gently climbing out with an ata and rpm well below the redline, with oil and water radiators fully open, and the aircraft started shaking and vibrating like crazy. I tried to troubleshoot the issue; temperatures were ok, nothing appeared to be in the red, but it felt like the engine was going to blow up. I quit the mission out of frustration and left the server as I could not work out what was going wrong. This was the second time that I took up the E7 Tropical in a multiplayer session, and the exact same thing happened the first time - the engine packed up shortly after take-off.

 

I will see if I can reproduce this.

Hi Warmoer,

 

Sorry to hear you are still having issues.  Off the top of my head i dont have any obvious answers to what might have been happening.  if you can replicate it and report back that would be good.

 

To aid in trouble shooting I'm going to ask some 'dumb' questions and pls dont take offense and think I'm insulting your expertise - I just need to rule out some possible causes.

 

(a) Is there any chance you were shot by someone you didnt see and didnt realise you were under attack. I've seen this happen online - I've shot a cpuple of people when they were miles behind the front line and they thought it was an aircraft bug and didnt realise they'd been shot till they saw the server message.  Again pls dont take offense - just trying to rule out things

 

(b) Are you 100% the oil and water rads were open?  I dont fly the 109 but i know that in the past there has sometimes been confusion about fully open v fully closed.  Again just being thorough by asking this question.

 

(c) If your propeller gets damaged the engine will shake and often you wont get any damage message displayed.  Is there any chance you may have nicked your prop somehow, or maybe a bullet went thru it?

 

(d) Can you recall what your engine oil / water temps were when you checked they were OK?

 

(e) Do you have an info window set up that displays aircraft damage messages?  If you dont then it might be worth setting one up to see what damage messages you might get, noting that not all damages are reported.

 

(f) Can you recall what speed you were flying when the vibration happened?

 

I fly the 110 and while flying online this weekend have had similar occasions where i was flying along and then all of a sudden one of my engines started to vibrate badly.  After the second time i concluded that i had let the temps get too high for only a briefest bit of time (ie in between my scans) and that was all it took.  I fly with my rads at 50% and oil temp just a tad above 100 and my water temps around 95-96.  If i keep my airspreed above 350 km/hr these setting work but if my airspeed drops below ~ 300-350 km/hr (such as when doing hard turns down low)  the oil / water heat up really quickly and i suspect that is what happened in my case this weekend.

 

If you can replicate experience and or have answers to the above pls post here and we''ll take a look at them and see if we can figure it out.

 

Ezzie

[ITAF_Airone1989]

Did you checked that the gear was up?

109 require a double "gear up" input, if you missed one could be the reason for shaking right after takeoff

[Indianer]

Could an open airfilter maybe result in engine destruction/shaking after takeoff?

Edited August 16, 2020 by Indianer

[Robert_Molders]

@Warmoer

 

I'm one of the Beta testers. Please do as indicated below, thanks:

 

1- Record  a track in which the issue is showing up

 

2- Send to me the recorded track file ( Here is the link to my ATAG forum profile: https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/member.php?u=10162 if needed )

Send a personal message to me with the title " E-7 Trop Issue ". I will reply with my e-mail address so you can send me easily the file/s of interest.

 

3- I'll share it with the other Beta Testers so we can check if you are doing something possibly wrong and doing so we can provide you a more quick help/feedback.

 

Salute!

Edited August 16, 2020 by SKG_210_Belial