Developer Diary 258 - Discussion

[Bernard_IV]

Berlin Express skin plz.

[sevenless]

Quote

We are currently preparing version 4.009 for release, the process is not easy, but we hope for its successful completion very soon. 

 

Yes! Perhaps as early as next week? Wonderfull!

[esk_pedja]

So what will be the speed, in sim, of the early Mustang version - the engine Packard-Merlin V-1650-3, with 100 octane fuel ?   ?  If it is not a secret ?

( 0m or 2000m altitude km/h )

 

...just trying to estimate - is it too fast for any dogfight with Luftwaffe fighters in late43 ?

 

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by esk_pedja

[LukeFF]

19 minutes ago, esk_pedja said:

just trying to estimate - is it too fast for any dogfight with Luftwaffe fighters in late43 ?

 

What in the world do you mean by that?

[CountZero]

Hes asking if its faster at 0-2km then 109G2,4,G6s or 190A5,6,8 he will probably be DF, will z germans have a chance ugenst it down low.

[dburne]

Sounding great! Looking forward to another P-51 in my stable.

[ADorante]

3 hours ago, mattebubben said:

Where is my Hurri though?

 

[Jason_Williams]

2 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

 

They said API would come with the fuel systems rework, so assuming that's coming sooner than the P51 B we should see it?

Umm... not in the way you are thinking. 
 

Jason

[Jade_Monkey]

7 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

Umm... not in the way you are thinking. 
 

Jason

Well, I'm all ears

[Gambit21]

Just shut up - you had me at malcolm  hood.

[Irishratticus72]

The 51B is pretty much Eddie Murphy in "Raw". 

The 51D is pretty much Eddie Murphy in "Shrek". 

In my opinion of course... ? 

[esk_pedja]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

What in the world do you mean by that?

 

See the post below by CountZero... I mean if the earliest Mustang is 20-30 km/h faster than any German fighter at 2000m, it will be difficult to counter it by Luftwaffe planes...

What is so strange if I'm curious about it...? New plane is both for flying and fighting against it... it's no brainer.

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by esk_pedja

[LukeFF]

34 minutes ago, esk_pedja said:

What is so strange if I'm curious about it...?

 

Because of this idea that a plane is "too fast" to fight against, and therefore it's pointless to fly against it as a German, etc. 

 

I'm sure the Luftwaffe would have loved to not face P-51s in the last years of the war but hey, they didn't really have that option.

[Diggun]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

Hes asking if its faster at 0-2km then 109G2,4,G6s or 190A5,6,8 he will probably be DF, will z germans have a chance ugenst it down low.

But, like, early war EF the chermans have speed advantages at these alts against all the Russian stuff. I still get me the odd kill again them in my i16, mig, yak 1,or p-40 though. Especially on servers that actually implement a little known real life phenomena called 'weather', though, admittedly, there are fewer of these than there should be. 

 

Absolute speed is hugely overstated in this forum as a decisive factor in a fight. 

[esk_pedja]

14 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Because of this idea that a plane is "too fast" to fight against, and therefore it's pointless to fly against it as a German, etc. 

 

I'm sure the Luftwaffe would have loved to not face P-51s in the last years of the war but hey, they didn't really have that option.

 

Between pointless and difficult is a huge difference... do not put "pointless" in my mouth. 

 

I'm not concerned what Luftwaffe would have loved... I would love to have as much fun as possible in new DLC.

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

4 hours ago, PainGod85 said:

Empirical data does not support this at all.

P-51B, V-1650-7 engine, 67" MAP:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p51b-24777.html
 

Speed at SL: 361.5 mph

At low blower critical altitude, 10.300 ft: 409.0 mph

 

P-51D, same engine and settings:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p51d-15342.html
 

Speed at SL: 375 mph

At low blower critical altitude, 10.000 ft: 417 mph

 

This shows the P-51D, running the same engine with the same boost and turning the same prop as being faster than the P-51B, with both fitted with wing racks. This is with the P-51B only having four guns with ports covered, and having been stripped of paint whereas the P-51D report only specifies it was flown with full ammunition, implying the full six gun armament, and no mention whether its gun ports had been covered, or its skin stripped of paint.

 

Your own sources kind of contradict you.

Kinda.

 

Take a look at the HP numbers at SL.

The D series has BHP of 1630 at SL whereas the B series has only 1580 available.

Either the 1650-7 underwent some sort of change in the meantime (intercooler or anything else supercharger related perhaps?) or they did not use the same engine setup.

Another possibility is that the 51B was using the -3 engine, though that would have had more power at SL IIRC.

 

Anyway, had the D series had the same HP it would have been a bit slower I guess.

Edited August 14, 2020 by So_ein_Feuerball

[Beazil]

Well, excitedly, we should know the answers to alot of these questions soon enough.  To add some colour (that is TOO how you spell it!) to the discussion, can some 'Stang pilot help educate the masses (like me) as to the general strengths of the Mustang vs your typical late war fare?  Thanks in advance.

[Bernard_IV]

These two are must haves in the game.  We really should have Bud Anderson's Old Crow in the game. Great guy and still goes around doing speeches.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Bernard_IV

[Legioneod]

27 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Well, excitedly, we should know the answers to alot of these questions soon enough.  To add some colour (that is TOO how you spell it!) to the discussion, can some 'Stang pilot help educate the masses (like me) as to the general strengths of the Mustang vs your typical late war fare?  Thanks in advance.

Jack of all trades master of none is pretty much how I look at it, it does everything well enough and has little trouble dealing with 109s or 190s. Easiest allied aircraft to fly imo besides the Tempest.

[Bernard_IV]

This one is also incredible.

[FeuerFliegen]

5 minutes ago, Bernard_IV said:

This one is also incredible.

 

Nice picture... looks like there is a man in a black suit standing in the grass in the reflection just in front of the empennage.

[pilotpierre]

??

[Soto_Cinematics]

5 hours ago, =SK=Kopecky_ said:

This is all cool stuff, but honestly whats going on with the Hurricane? ?

 

Probably coming with the next update I bet

[=FI=Blue2]

38 minutes ago, Bernard_IV said:

These two are must haves in the game.  We really should have Bud Anderson's Old Crow in the game. Great guy and still goes around doing speeches.

Could not agree more, he's a total class act.  Incredibly humble, wonderful guy.  Met him in Alaska in ~'94 when he visited my unit, and left a HUGE impression on a bunch of us young'uns.

I hope his is one of the official skins.

 

Han and company, thanks as always.  You guys never disappoint!

[Jaegermeister]

37 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

can some 'Stang pilot help educate the masses (like me) as to the general strengths of the Mustang vs your typical late war fare?  Thanks in advance.

 

Positives from memory, some will dispute, go ahead...

• It could carry 2 500# bombs or 2 drop tanks
• It could escort bombers all the way to the target area unlike the P-47s
• It was as fast or faster than anything at the time ('43, '44)
• It could operate up to 20,000 ft without losing performance
• It could out turn the current crop of 109s and 190s at high speed 
• At low speed, it wasn't the best, but it could hold it's own with the FW190
• They were available in large numbers

Negatives;

• Only 4 .50 cal machine guns
• The guns jammed if you fired them in a high G turn. They fixed that with electric feed motors
• Mediocre visibility from the cockpit. The Malcolm hood helped
• Unstable until you burned half the fuel from the main fuselage tank
• Your butt hurt after flying for 6 hours sitting on a parachute and a dinghy

[BraveSirRobin]

9 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

• Your butt hurt after flying for 6 hours sitting on a parachute and a dinghy

 

That's probably a negative for any aircraft.

[Jaegermeister]

Just now, BraveSirRobin said:

 

That's probably a negative for any aircraft.

 

No doubt

[Rjel]

51 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Jack of all trades master of none is pretty much how I look at it, it does everything well enough and has little trouble dealing with 109s or 190s. Easiest allied aircraft to fly imo besides the Tempest.

Without side tracking the thread, if the Mustang was what you describe, what other fighter had all the qualities of a P-51, only to a higher standard? 

[Gambit21]

20 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

It was as fast or faster than anything at the time

 

Everything I heard at Reno last year from seemingly unbiased sources was that even the D was the most slippery thing in the air at the time.

The long term success of the Mustang, modified and otherwise at the races speaks to this truth I think.

 

I'm sure there were some other close contenders. The owner of the P-63 that I talked with at length said it was as fast as the Mustang down low (wasn't evident in the race) but that's what he said.

 

I haven't seen it happen so much on these boards, but back in the day during the heyday of the old sim it was popular to disparage the Mustang, I think because of it's overall popularity.

 

[Legioneod]

5 minutes ago, Rjel said:

Without side tracking the thread, if the Mustang was what you describe, what other fighter had all the qualities of a P-51, only to a higher standard? 

It does everything I need it to do pretty well. It can climb, dive, turn, and roll. Other aircraft can do some of these things better (190 can outroll it, 109s can turn better depending on the situation/speed, P-47 can dive and maybe zoom better, etc.).

 

I don't consider the P-51 to be superior in any one category but it was decent in all of them imo. It's a good all rounder imo, and I can adapt to nearly any situation. In aircraft like the P-47 I have to fly in a very specific way.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Legioneod

[=SqSq=Civilprotection]

27 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

Unstable until you burned half the fuel from the main fuselage tank

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the 85 gallon fuselage tank was introduced at the same time as the p-51D. Maybe some late B/C production blocks had it?

[LukeFF]

13 minutes ago, =SqSq=Civilprotection said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the 85 gallon fuselage tank was introduced at the same time as the p-51D. Maybe some late B/C production blocks had it?

 

It was installed starting with the B-5.

[Jaegermeister]

11 hours ago, =SqSq=Civilprotection said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the 85 gallon fuselage tank was introduced at the same time as the p-51D. Maybe some late B/C production blocks had it?

 

“The new Mustang quickly began to appear on other fronts. In February 1944, P-51Bs began flowing into USAAF 14th Air Force units in Burma, and in April, P-51Bs and Mustang IIIs began to arrive at USAAF and RAF squadrons in Italy.”....

 

“As P-51Bs flew into combat, the deficiencies of the type were identified and gradually dealt with....

 

Another problem was that, even with drop tanks, the Mustang still didn't have enough range to escort Eighth AF bombers all the way to Berlin and back. The USAAF had been testing a potential long-range fighter, the Fisher XP-75, that had proven unsatisfactory, and needed something immediately that could do the job. USAAF Colonel Mark Bradley, who had been in charge of testing the XP-75, told NAA's Dutch Kindelberger that there was some empty space in the rear fuselage of the Mustang, and that another fuel tank should to be put there. NAA engineers devised a 322-liter (85 US gallon) tank that fit between the pilot's seat and the radio. The new tank gave the Mustang the necessary range, solving one problem, if at the expense of creating another. The new fuel tank was added without concern for its effect on the Mustang's center of gravity. With a full fuel load, getting the fighter off the runway was downright dangerous, and the aircraft was only marginally controllable for the first hour or so that it took to drain the tank.

 

That had to do, there was a war on and something was needed right away, so the third tank was fitted to late-production P-51Bs. The British also made their own contribution to the range problem in the form of a new drop tank that accommodated 409 liters (108 US gallons) and which was made of plastic-impregnated paper. That sounds a little crazy, particularly since the fuel would rot the tank if left in it for more than eight hours. However, the paper drop tanks were perfectly effective, and were lighter and cheaper than metal drop tanks. Dropping them over German territory also did not provide the enemy with aluminum they could scavenge for their own war effort. Production rates of the paper drop tanks eventually reached 24,000 a month.

 

— The North American P-51 Mustang by Greg Goebel
https://a.co/bCbIfkl

 

The ones with lower fuel capacity would probably have been used as airfield hacks, sent to ground attack squadrons, or sent to training squadrons as the newer ones became available with a longer range.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Jaegermeister

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, Jaegermeister said:

• The guns jammed if you fired them in a high G turn. They fixed that with electric feed motors

 

Now there is something to dream about... a feature we haven't often seen before in sims (and one which isn't planned to my knowledge). I'd love to have Mk-108 or MG-FF cannons jamming... have it as a consideration when assessing an armament.

 

4 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

Umm... not in the way you are thinking. 
 

Jason

 

Well... that is frustratingly cryptic  

Edited August 15, 2020 by Avimimus

[DBFlyguy]

Since today's DD was solely about the Mustang, figured it was about time to share this amazing youtube vid on this beautiful machine, can't wait till we get the B model to go right along with the D we currently have. 

 

 

[Freycinet]

Fantastic news!

 

Just finished reading the book about Edgar Schmued, the designer of the P-51:

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/9781560989943/MUSTANG-DESIGNER-Edgar-Schmued-P-51-1560989947/plp

 

Very nice read, tho it could have been a bit more technical. One nice tidbit: the main reason for putting the belly radiator so far back was that such a radiator will always disturb the laminar flow, but by putting it far back the laminar flow was disturbed much later than it would otherwise have been, thus creating less disruption. Clever and simple.

 

Also the way the belly radiator upper "lip" stands off the fuselage is very clever, again made to disturb the laminar flow as little as possible. A design feature that was later taken up in the F-16.

 

Who of you knew that Schmued also designed the F-5 Freedom Fighter? - When the generals saw it they commented that it was a real North American design, a hotrod in the vein of the P-51. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It's not a great image but early B is on the left and has no tank. Later B is on the right and the tank is installed.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

5 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

Umm... not in the way you are thinking. 
 

Jason

Looking forwards to the ammo rework  I hope it's not only about the late war API / API-T but also including the early war M1 Incendiary for the P-40/P-39 and incendiaries for the other guns in the sim (almost all of the in game german and soviet guns had either API or dedicated I as well)

[ACG_Smokejumper]

1 hour ago, Freycinet said:

 

Who of you knew that Schmued also designed the F-5 Freedom Fighter? - When the generals saw it they commented that it was a real North American design, a hotrod in the vein of the P-51. 

 

 

I had no idea! Nice.

 

Thanks for sharing. I love the F5 too.

[HBPencil]

The razorbacked 'stang sure is a good looking bird, and as I enjoy sitting the razorback P-47's cockpit more than the bubble top's I suspect I'll enjoy the P-51B/C's cockpit as well