Tempest ripping wings off is not realistic

[Cpt_Siddy]

So please can you either fix the stabilizer authority or structure. Thank you.

[Talisman]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

So please can you either fix the stabilizer authority or structure. Thank you.

 

Hi Cpt_Siddy,

 

Just a short note to say that I am surprised by your post, as I can't remember the last time I ripped a wing off and I am a Tempest V fan

My squad mates also fly the Tempest and I can't remember anyone saying they have a problem with wings ripping off.  Mind you, my memory is not so good, lol.

 

I try to keep away from the the max dive speed, 540 mph if memory serves me right.  Is your wing breaking with bombs on?  I don't use bombs with the Tempest so don't have much experience of carrying them.  Also, I use a force feedback joystick (MSFF2), so perhaps that is helping me.  Good luck.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[CountZero]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

So please can you either fix the stabilizer authority or structure. Thank you.

If they plan to fix anything it will probably come with Typhoon some time in spring 2021 when they somehow discover new data.

 

I could not fined anything on net that shows that real ww2 ppilots of tempest were droping like flys when intercepting enemys, like its posible in game where fast interceptor is most fragile in that job.

But in real world enemy could not just delphin around in their airplanes like they usealy do when enemy is on 6 as it seams is main defencive move in video games like this, somehow pilots can do big -G and then +G with not big side effects for long time, so Tempest with either broken wings structor damage or broken elevator autority at high speeds is easy to be detach to dirt from your 6 just by going in high speed and do delphin moves.

 

Something is clearly broken, and my bet is on autority of elevators, but problem would not be so visable as now if they fix delphin up down and give it harsh penalty to better simulate what you can not do in real life if you have human pilot and not superhumans as we have in game that can with no problem go from -3G to +4G in 1s for many times.

 

[Cpt_Siddy]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

 

 

Something is clearly broken, and my bet is on autority of elevators, but problem would not be so visable as now if they fix delphin up down and give it harsh penalty to better simulate what you can not do in real life if you have human pilot and not superhumans as we have in game that can with no problem go from -3G to +4G in 1s for many times.

 

 

 

You can do that in every plane, its just Tempest rips its wing off. I much rather not see this happen at all, spit and 190 are especially notorious offenders in here, but they wont disintegrate when pulling off super human stick forces. 

[CountZero]

On 8/12/2020 at 1:20 PM, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

You can do that in every plane, its just Tempest rips its wing off. I much rather not see this happen at all, spit and 190 are especially notorious offenders in here, but they wont disintegrate when pulling off super human stick forces. 

Delphin move is effective, more then trying to outturn or scissors enemy, yes all airplanes can do it and its most offten moves you see online, big + is when you have Tempest on 6 then you can laugh at him also after you do the delphin and he trys to aim and by by wing lol

 

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by CountZero

[[FAC]Ghost129er]

21 minutes ago, CountZero said:

Delphin move

 

I'm sorry, what move..? Literally just getting photos of Dolphins. Like dive and pull up or..? Cause I need to test this lmao

[CountZero]

18 minutes ago, [FAC]Ghost129er said:

 

I'm sorry, what move..? Literally just getting photos of Dolphins. Like dive and pull up or..? Cause I need to test this lmao

Yes going up down fast (dont need to be in dive ) when enemy is on your 6, you dont get any sideeffects for long time ( even when they added wobbly view that happends after long time its not harsh) and with bad net game has your even lagging for enemy, he can hit you only by luck and you get guy on your 6 extrem frustrated and usealy make easy overshoot as hes not focused.

Edited August 14, 2020 by CountZero

[[FAC]Ghost129er]

7 minutes ago, CountZero said:

with bad net game has your even lagging for enemy, he can hit you only by luck

(My opponents are extremely lucky mind you... -rage- Whoops better not say anything because apparently it's all just me.)
Thanks for the explanation
 

Edited August 14, 2020 by [FAC]Ghost129er

[CountZero]

quick search for example, shows on slow speed, on higher speed its also more effective:

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by CountZero

[Cpt_Siddy]

That's your standard evasive seizure flying, i see that style mentioned by 95% of ww2 Aces. 

 

Very historic and common in Multiplayer.

[von_Tom]

 

I only rip the wings off if I increase the wing loading massively in a sudden movement.  Think diving with bombs, dropping then pulling straight up.  The maximum load is 12G and I think that is easy to do at speed even if only momentarily.  I haven't done it for a long time, including during combat.

 

Try whatever you were doing with a G meter active.

 

It might be the stabiliser authority that is too good at such a speed, but it doesn't seem that unrealistic to me (no I've never flown a Tempest in real life or any other WWII aircraft).

 

von Tom

[SAS_Storebror]

3 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

That's your standard evasive seizure flying, i see that style mentioned by 95% of ww2 Aces. 

 

Very historic and common in Multiplayer.

Lol? Lol.

You're saying that historically planes and pilots were deyfing physics?

Tell us more. Maybe some quotes of your 95% of WW2 aces which can backup your stance.

 

Mike

[SAS_Storebror]

Oh well... in that case sorry for having missed on the sarcasm... dammit, I love sarcasm but I hate it when I don't get it ?

Thanks for waking me up 

 

Mike

[Blackhawk_FR]

On 8/12/2020 at 9:34 AM, Cpt_Siddy said:

So please can you either fix the stabilizer authority or structure. Thank you.

 

I would rather say stop pulling like a retard (not against you  ) at high speed. You will avoid taking +10G and so, rip your wing off.

[Cpt_Siddy]

1 hour ago, JG300_Faucon said:

 

I would rather say stop pulling like a retard (not against you  ) at high speed. You will avoid taking +10G and so, rip your wing off.

 

 

When you are in a pursuit flight, and see a 109 to pull >9000 negative G, then pull right back up with force of thousands suns with no negative effect, while you lose your wing for trying to keep your aim at the target with ~20 MPH more speed.... yeah, nah.

 

Its the same disease as when the spit lost it vertical stab, a small flick on the rudder and badabim badabum rudder is yeeted at mach 5. 

There is issue with instantaneous loading somewhere and while it is not as retarded as losing vertical stab while in steady climb on spit, it still sucks and needs to be fixed... or pointed to a source documentation of this being an actual issue with Tempest. 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[Black-Witch]

On 8/12/2020 at 8:34 AM, Cpt_Siddy said:

So please can you either fix the stabilizer authority or structure. Thank you.

 

I agree Cpt_Siddy,

 

I mostly fly 109's and Tempests, the Tempest looses a wing doing a simple maneuver using the elevator and yet the 109 doesn't, doing exactly the same maneuver.

 

It doesn't happen in the Spitfire either, and that has a more "sensitive" elevator as well.

 

It's wrong.

 

This seems to happen when the Tempest gets above about 360 mph (580kmh).

 

I've never read of a Tempest losing a wing, Typhoons loosing tails, yes.

 

 

[ZachariasX]

15 minutes ago, Black-Witch said:

I've never read of a Tempest losing a wing, Typhoons loosing tails, yes.

Look how many g‘s you are pulling when the wing come off and then think what yould be the max. g that those people you were reading about could have been pulling at best.

[Blackhawk_FR]

109K4, 

max G load: 10.5G

Impossible to reach more than 9.5G (even by using lot of trim at high speed)

 

109E7,

max G load: 11G

Impossible to reach more than 10G

 

Spitfire MkIX,

max G load: 12.5G

Possible to reach more than 10G and rip the wing off

 

Tempest MkV

max G load: 14G

Easy to reach up to 14G at high speed due to the very high elevator authority, wing rip off

 

 

Just understand that depending on the planes (and their elevator authority), it's more or less easy to reach high Gs, and so rip the wing off. 

So remember that with Tempest: don't pull your stick like a retard. 

Question is: Probably that the number of G when the wing break off should be a bit random. 

But as the accelerometer doesn't go over 10, we can't tell if the Tempest's wing rip off everytime at 14G, or if it's sometimes 13.5, 14, 14.5, 15, ... 

Edited August 15, 2020 by JG300_Faucon

[cardboard_killer]

I love the tempest; it's a dream to fly. I hardly ever rip the wings off, but I do break the engine sometimes when I grab the wrong control and mess with rpm instead of throttle (or more often both). It's hard to beat at the lower altitudes.

[Black-Witch]

19 hours ago, JG300_Faucon said:

109K4, 

max G load: 10.5G

Impossible to reach more than 9.5G (even by using lot of trim at high speed)

Question is: Probably that the number of G when the wing break off should be a bit random. 

But as the accelerometer doesn't go over 10, we can't tell if the Tempest's wing rip off everytime at 14G, or if it's sometimes 13.5, 14, 14.5, 15, ... 

I don’t pull hard on the stick, that’s what’s wrong, the wing breaks when I’m not blacked out and not pulling hard. 
 

Tacview shows G load. 

[CountZero]

If it was so easy to over G Tempest wings in real life like its in game, then there would be big fat warning on its cockpit or manuals to pilots.

There is a reason for test flights, to see whats posible in airplane and what should not be done, no where i see any talk about how easy was to pull high Gs in Tempest that it was so danagerous for pilot that they were warned not to do it, like we have in game where its so easy to just rip wings on high speed, not even going in blackout. Me thinks game got it wrong big time.

And its not like this is some slow ass airplane , it was used as fricking interceptor so they were flying at high speeds, pulling high Gs easy...

 

 

Spec say 12G is max for tempest, in game G indicator go only to 10G even though they have room to display 15G in that indicator they added, tacview G are wrong as said by game devs when asked by players on russian forum about to high Gs with no blackouts and used tacview to back up claims, so i go by what game G meter shows and devs decided to display just to 10G insted 15G even though most airplanes max G is abow 10 G, gold move lol

 

I never rip wings in Spit, so i just test and i pull 10+G more then 20 times and wings stick, was it 10.1 or 13.1 G i dont know as G meter in game only shows up to 10G, in Tempest i go in 10G+ indicator wings brake easy, again if it was this easy to do it in real life it would be noticed somwhere, and it would have reutation of pilot killer. 

Edited August 16, 2020 by CountZero

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

I never rip wings in Spit, so i just test and i pull 10+G more then 20 times and wings stick, was it 10.1 or 13.1 G i dont know as G meter in game only shows up to 10G, in Tempest i go in 10G+ indicator wings brake easy, again if it was this easy to do it in real life it would be noticed somwhere, and it would have reutation of pilot killer. 

You'd never do 10 g in the Spit even tough you probably could get close to that number, depending on circumstances. You'd be careful how much hurt you give yourself.

 

How about you pull a bit less on your stick? You can destroy most airplanes by moving the stick to the extremes.

 

And yes, in the real aircraft, there generally is a "big fat red label" saying don't do this. It is the yellow arc on the speedometer on most aircraft. With fighters, you give them more tolerance and there is less tendency stating the obvious in vintage designs, but the message is and was always the same from the times of Louis Blériot on. "Don't do full stick deflections at high speed". This applies also when you think you must do it. Even jets have stick limiters.

 

"Wing come off" is the complaint, but what do you want to have done about that? An awful elevator arrangement like the 109 that allows you to fly like an oaf? Or wings stay on up to 20g?

[cardboard_killer]

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

An awful elevator arrangement like the 109 that allows you to fly like an oaf?

 

Hey, I resemble that remark!

[HR_Zunzun]

4 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

You'd never do 10 g in the Spit even tough you probably could get close to that number, depending on circumstances. You'd be careful how much hurt you give yourself.

 

How about you pull a bit less on your stick? You can destroy most airplanes by moving the stick to the extremes.

 

And yes, in the real aircraft, there generally is a "big fat red label" saying don't do this. It is the yellow arc on the speedometer on most aircraft. With fighters, you give them more tolerance and there is less tendency stating the obvious in vintage designs, but the message is and was always the same from the times of Louis Blériot on. "Don't do full stick deflections at high speed". This applies also when you think you must do it. Even jets have stick limiters.

 

"Wing come off" is the complaint, but what do you want to have done about that? An awful elevator arrangement like the 109 that allows you to fly like an oaf? Or wings stay on up to 20g?

While I agree with the structural limits and how they are achieved in real life, I also think that what happens in the sim is that you can apply those loads in an unrealistic way. Many times (in planes with good elevator authority) you just need to flicker your wrist in your home joystick and that will translate into a movement in the plane that most likely would require a grunting two hands pull.

I do not know if will be easy to change the translation movement ratio between our home joystick and sim plane one without creation other problems but if the real planes would shed off wings at the alarming rate we can do it in the same they would have been grounded. Is not a question of knowing how to do gentle pulls is that the difference between a sound pull and a wings ripping one is just at a wrist flicker distance. In my opinion, that never would have been accepted into service.

[Blackhawk_FR]

7 hours ago, Black-Witch said:

the wing breaks when I’m not blacked out and not pulling hard. 

 

If you pull instant high Gs, even more than 10G, your pilot will still black out after few seconds. 
Tempest has such a high elevator authority that you don't need to pull so hard to reach 14G. 

 

If you say your wing break with less than 14G, I think we are not talking about the same game. 

[Black-Witch]

57 minutes ago, JG300_Faucon said:

 

If you pull instant high Gs, even more than 10G, your pilot will still black out after few seconds. 
Tempest has such a high elevator authority that you don't need to pull so hard to reach 14G. 

 

If you say your wing break with less than 14G, I think we are not talking about the same game. 

 

The game is the problem, this only affects the Tempest, I fly no different in any plane. This game error has been known since the day the Tempest was realesed.

[Blackhawk_FR]

1 hour ago, Black-Witch said:

The game is the problem, this only affects the Tempest, I fly no different in any plane.

 

Here is what I understand from your message:

You fly every aircrafts the same way ("I fly no different in any plane"). 

Well, THIS IS the problem to me. Tempest requires to be more careful on the elevator inputs at high speeds. 

 

Did you tried some pull out tests in single player and checking the accelerometer in the same time? You will see how fast and easy you can reach very high Gs.

 

It is possible to break Spitfire's wings also (it's harder though). 

[Cpt_Siddy]

Faucon, go home, its not your ultralight airobatics kite that you fly, its a big, heavy, fully fledged WW2 fighter. There's a thing called inertia and air stream. 

 

If you can, with a muscle strengthen of a mere mortal, rip its wings off then there WOULD ABSOLUTELY BE a warning placard written with letters AS BIG AS A CAT: DON'T PULL TOO TOO HARD AT SPEED BEYOND X. 

These planes used to do a strafing runs at ground targets, when pilot see tracers, they pull, hard. 

There should absolutely be SOME accounts of someone pulling his wing off now and then. Even if witnessed by others... 

 

So i ask again, what is the basis of this? Documentation or after action reports? Remember, we don't have a Terminator siting in a cockpit, but a mere human. Even  if it is theoretically possible to do so assuming Arnold is sitting in there, but what about a mere human? 

 

 

meanwhile, your average 109 ace 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[Aurora_Stealth]

Cpt_Siddy respectfully, pilots would have in real life been trained and slowly familiarised to know these critical parameters before being shoved into combat and pushing things to their extreme limits.

 

In some cases, yes - placards are provided - several of the US aircraft and some of the Soviet types have this information easily accessible but its not a universal standard.

 

Often this was learned through reading a pilots manual, and the slow process of familiarisation, training and sharing of experience by pilots - once you have the basic limitations down you can usually detect when you are approaching the limits through the sounds and strains in the airframe.

 

It's much harder to appreciate this in a game, so being more specced up on an aircraft's background info before hand can help overcome this.

 

One way to prevent this happening in-game, if you fly this aircraft a lot at extreme speed - is to reduce your control sensitivity (perhaps in pitch) to avoid over stressing - as the control sensitivity is fairly generic, you can optimise sensitivity a lot for an individual aircraft but you have to change for different aircraft to get the sweet spot sometimes. Either way you have to be mindful of airspeed. Some of this is muscle memory, you give as much pull as it "usually" takes which can be a recipe for disaster at extreme speeds - even if you did it with another aircraft.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Aurora_Stealth

[Cpt_Siddy]

1 hour ago, Aurora_Stealth said:

Cpt_Siddy respectfully, pilots would have in real life been trained and slowly familiarised 

 

 

I wanna see that training camp that familiarizes you to incoming tracers...

 

Never mind, found it... its in the class of "look carefully, everyone, im going to do this only once" 

 

 

 

 

War had plenty of opportunities to someone somewhere shait themselves, pull hard and yank a wing or two off. I really want to see any hint of that happening.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[Aurora_Stealth]

Okay so you're another unpleasant and unreasonable personality who can only understand black and white. X Ignore User.

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

its a big, heavy, fully fledged WW2 fighter.

I guess, just for people who thought like that and were not event shy of giving champions advice about their game, Grumman made the outer 40 inches of the Bearcats wings detachable in a way that they do break off if 7.5 g are exceeded. And yet still some lament Tempest wings coming off at 14 g.

Edited August 17, 2020 by ZachariasX

[Cpt_Siddy]

32 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

I guess, just for people who thought like that and were not event shy of giving champions advice about their game, Grumman made the outer 40 inches of the Bearcats wings detachable in a way that they do break off if 7.5 g are exceeded. And yet still some lament Tempest wings coming off at 14 g.

 

Listen, either you are trolling or not understanding that air stream stiffens up the controls to the point where pulling 14 g instantaneous is not humanly possible.

 

There is no way a normal human being can pull such forces, or if there is, i bloody want to see some documentation of it happening on tempest.

[ZachariasX]

3 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Listen, either you are trolling or not understanding that air stream stiffens up the controls to the point where pulling 14 g instantaneous is not humanly possible.

That would depend on the elevator. I have no idea how much you can pull exactly. and I am not making statements on what is possible. Maybe it is, maybe it is not. You are making an exact statement of what is not possible. Just because you are convinced of something cannot be does not relive you from the burden of proof. So show the data when making such a statement. The devs must have made a decision based upon data. I‘d wonder what that looked like.

 

In the meantime, just not using maximum stick deflections at highest speeds works for me. But I guess mileage varies.

[Cpt_Siddy]

A plane that was widely used as a ground attacker would have had issues of people pulling stick to break off. 

 

There is exactly zilch instances that i have been able to find where anyone mentioned *anyone* pulling off a wing when exiting from dive.

 

And trust me, when tracers start flying, people start panicking. 

 

What on earth give you the impression that this is possible, and not just another overlooked instantaneous overload bug this game has suffered before, too? 

 

All i am asking is the documentation of this problem existing, ever. 

You know, like the documented issues with TAIL RIPPING OFF and ENGINE FIRES this plane this, and Typhoon had.  

1 hour ago, Aurora_Stealth said:

Okay so you're another unpleasant and unreasonable personality who can only understand black and white. X Ignore User.

 

Okay, you are one of those people who consider that superhuman instantaneous stick forces our pilots are capable of, is ok? 

 

Equally as productive comment from you, good day to you, sir.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[HR_Zunzun]

57 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

That would depend on the elevator. I have no idea how much you can pull exactly. and I am not making statements on what is possible. Maybe it is, maybe it is not. You are making an exact statement of what is not possible. Just because you are convinced of something cannot be does not relive you from the burden of proof. So show the data when making such a statement. The devs must have made a decision based upon data. I‘d wonder what that looked like.

 

In the meantime, just not using maximum stick deflections at highest speeds works for me. But I guess mileage varies.

 

How much force do you need to apply to pull  your home warthog, saitek.... to its end? 4-8 pounds. Actually, I can use almost just a finger in my warthog (with 10cm extension).

For a 14g pull, I must use in my joystick....let´s say 10 pounds (probably much less). That is a 0.7pounds/G. I think that a plane with these extremely light controls would have been considered suicidal to fly and grounded.

[unreasonable]

The Spitfire Va elevator force was measured by the US: 

 

"The elevator control was found to be powerful enough to develop either the maximum lift coefficient or the allowable load factor at any speed."

 

"Inasmuch as the elevator mass unbalance under statlc conditions gave a force of 4.0 pounds on the stick, it is apparent that the stick force required in accelerated flight came almost entirely from the statlcally unbalanced elevator. Practically no stick force would be required in turns if the elevator were mass balanced."

 

Not a Tempest - no idea how different that was, but British designers were clearly able and willing to make fighters with elevators that could generate very high g loads with only light-moderate stick forces. 

 

Of course, real pilots can feel the gs and use that to control their stick inputs, while we cannot, but realistically no one can sell a game in which you have to be able realistic loads on the stick, or gaming HOTAS which could tolerate these loads.  

 

 https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a801513.pdf

 

 

[Black-Witch]

If it was as simple as the wing coming off at 14G by pulling hard on the stick, then the wing coming off wouldn't be an issue as it is easily explained...but, that isn't the case with the Il-2 GB Tempest.

 

The wing breaks at 5G!

 

I waited for yesterdays patch, in the vain hope it might get fixed..no, so I made a film of it happening.

 

Here are some screenshots of the wing coming off from Tacview, in Tacview you can see more accurate G data. the wing coming off is when the "cube" appears, after that all control is lost.

 

This was an offline quick mission where I did a shallow dive, it seems you have to be above ~360mph, 580kmh, and it occurs when there is some "porpoising", some positive and negative G maneuvers. The sort of maneuvers needed to stay with a "bunting" 109.

 

There is no "warning" of a wing breaking, and in the case below, as usual, it's not exactly clear WHY it breaks just when it did. You can see from the clock that this happens over a couple of seconds.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Black-Witch

[Blackhawk_FR]

10 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Listen, either you are trolling or not understanding that air stream stiffens up the controls to the point where pulling 14 g instantaneous is not humanly possible.

 

9 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

A plane that was widely used as a ground attacker would have had issues of people pulling stick to break off. 

 

14 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

If you can, with a muscle strengthen of a mere mortal, rip its wings off then there WOULD ABSOLUTELY BE a warning placard written with letters AS BIG AS A CAT: DON'T PULL TOO TOO HARD AT SPEED BEYOND X. 

 

 

14 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

So i ask again, what is the basis of this? Documentation or after action reports?

 

You are so fun. You are saying a lot of things without proving anything, and after you ask others for datas. 

 

1 hour ago, Black-Witch said:

Here are some screenshots of the wing coming off from Tacview, in Tacview you can see more accurate G data.

 

Tacview is known to be quite inaccurate for Gs. 

And, are you sure you didn't pull 14G before? We can see a very steep pull on the trajectory just before, which may weakened your wing. 

 

There is a simple way to confirm or not that your wing can break at 5G: Take a Tempest offline, and make a continuous 5G turn, by monitoring the in game accelerometer, which is accurate. Or make severals dive pull outs at 10G, and then check again if you wing break at 5. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by JG300_Faucon

[Black-Witch]

1 hour ago, JG300_Faucon said:

 

And, are you sure you didn't pull 14G before? 

 

Yes, read my post again, it's quite clear.