wtornado Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 (edited) I am an experienced 1c simmer now.I have learnt the ways of the sim pilot. No editor that is user friendly no money.I am sick of the omelette before the egg concept hell I live in Canada with government pulling this all the time. And that isn't even counting the offline players that make missions for themselves. Edited May 16, 2014 by WTornado 5
1./JG42Nephris Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 I see future incompatibilities between missions created in the FMB "as is" and the real FMB Pointless. Changes to mission formats happened in RoF aswell and worked without probs.
CrazySchmidt Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 So what do you suggest they drop from the release to make time to develop the FMB, the single player campaign perhaps? Or they could put the release back a few months maybe. Or they could do what they have promised to do and produce a new user friendly FMB after the game is released. I'm not suggesting anything other than the fact that they have seriously underestimated the importance of user autonomy for mission building. CS. 1
1./JG42Nephris Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Why developing a new FMB. The fmb as it is , is fine enough, the users are just not willing to get themselves sit down a few hours to learn hanlding the editor. E.g Vanderstock released great video tutorial. Redoing that stuff piece by piece is more tha nenough to learn the basics. Right now the Release Candidate lacks of an iportant feature. Speaking about a feature which will be released after the release day sounds to me like promising valueble stocks.
KodiakJac Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 To this point (for me anyway) they have been right on track, but to to realize that potentially the FMB (development model) from the original IL2 Sturmovik (or similar) might not be carried forward in the initial release was a very real indication for me that 777 studios were not seeing it as through the eyes of the IL2 fans. Mission building autonomy is the foundation of IL2's success, if you're a fan you know this already! Are any of you 777 guys actual IL2 fans? This is well said and hits the nail on the head. I was stunned to see the FMB suddenly become a back burner project when it has been the heart of IL-2 in the past. It's like buying the Hershey brand and no longer making chocolate...it's a big deal and thus the reaction from the community. 1
Dakpilot Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Well I guess they could release a great FMB everyone would be happy with, just we would have no game or great FM to use with it..for a much longer time, See what has been produced so far as an alpha, and have some patience people act like the devs are a bunch of 12 year olds with no experience , credit to them for some of the panic drivel they must have wade through to get some semblance of good feedback, lol Cheers Dakpilot 1
Mmaruda Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 You seem to forget option 3: release the FMB they have got and deliver an improved one whenever it is ready! This! Seriously, the FMB from RoF is hardly user friendly, but people make missions in it and don't complain. Not having any editor at launch would be huge mistake and a problem for the community - some of us require some sort of editor to make missions for MP. Not everyone is into dogfight servers. I also think, that this time around, the community will try harder with the FMB. IL-2 has a great many talented followers, modders and mission maker alike, who will not give up, just becasue the FMB is complicated.
andyw248 Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Just noticed this discussion... I've used the Mission Editor in RoF since it came out. With the manual that it came with, and with Vanderstok's tutorials on youtube I actually found it easy to use (which is why I never complained about it). Like some other posters here I have created a number of single player missions for RoF, just to simulate scenarios that I had read about or wanted to try out. The ability to assign all kinds of properties to planes (e.g. airspeed if you want to fly in formation with them) and other vehicles allows for a lot of variety that the QMB does not offer. I would be excited if we could get just the counterpart of the RoF Mission Editor. 1
LBR=H-Ostermann Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 I'd be happy with an ME, whatever the format. The editor has become a traditional part of many flight sims, I can't recall the first time it was incorporated in a flight sim, maybe CFS? However... There's some that think the developers must cater to the original IL2 crowd (of which I'm one) but isn't it really the object of a new sim to appeal to whomever is interested? It may be the IL2 franchise but it's under new management (777).
Bearcat Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 Why do people keep lingering on that statement and ignoring the ones after it? I´m NOT 'people' I´m NOT 'lingering' I´m NOT ignoring anything!! What is it with you?! The mentioned Statement is Posted Yesterday, 05:11 so what else is there, did I miss anything? Apparently you did.. We do hear you asking for the MB. We will give it to players when it's ready. We can't make it possible sooner that it's planned (even extra money wouldn't help much since it's about vacant specialists, not about paying more to the existing ones) Startrekmike, please, don't you worry. What I'm doing here now is trying to calm ppl down by saying obvious things that some of them do not hear for some mysterious reason. MB will be given to players in future. So why are you worried that much? Let's imagine that it was not about the MB but about multiplayer. And you were telling us how come the MP mode is not available yet? And I would keep telling you that we'll give MP in future. Same story here. So it would be more useful to discuss MB features, for instance, but not us not giving it to everyone right now. Furthermore we don't have BOS mission builder, only ROF builder. Guys, Just a quick note. A separate standalone ME is possible to make by a third party. We always thought someone from the ROF community would come along and do it, but no one ever did and our discussions with talented people who could have possibly provided that went nowhere. We found this to be odd since simmers are such a motivated and creative crowd. Maybe it was because it was WWI and not WWII? Not sure, but Pat Wilson and others have proven that a lot can be done with our current ME scripts if they are matched up to some kind of GUI. Based on our experience with ROF, we have no indication this will change with BOS. So it would probably be up to us to make a new ME. Now we know what you guys want is a 2D/3D integrated system with the GUI etc. similar to the old Sturmovik ME. For us to do that takes time and quite a bit of money. With the time and budget constraints we were facing when we took on this project it was decided to make a working product first and then see what else we can do. At launch you will have the QMB and the Career system that will generate a lot of missions for you to fly. Yes, some users will want to make their own complex custom missions, we understand that, but we need to get through the initial release first. As a compromise we are going to work with some folks we already have a relationship with so they can provide some extra mission content for the community. As Loft stated and I stated this is a compromise we are going to implement this summer for a wide variety of reasons already discussed. My suggestion to everyone interested in this topic is to just be patient and fly BOS to it's fullest extent and enjoy what we have built so far. We've come a long way in a short time. To get completely hung up on this one topic is not really helping the cause right now. Jason What is it with me? I am getting tired of seeing adults acting like children over an issue that will be resolved at some point. This is similar to the folks who were loosing their minds a few months back and threatening to drop the sim and get a refund... because the initial early access was limited in scope. Where are they now? I would be willing to bet that 9 out of 10 of them are enjoying BoS and waiting with baited breath for the 190 to be released.. You are not the only person lingering on the single statement about the mission builder that several have quoted, however since there are more than one.. more than just you harping on this issue, hence I used the term people. Just because I quoted your post I obviously was not referring solely to you. Do you understand what is with me now or do I need to break out a chart or something for you to understand. You also need to check your PMs. 1
Bearcat Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 BC and FlyingNutcase, Hi guys how are you doing? I'm good, but don't drop in as often these days. I'm kinda waiting to see what will happen with the finished product before I decide whether I will be onboard or not with this new IL2 offering. It certainly is looking very nice, though the quality of the FMB will be a key point to watch for me. Cheers guys, CS. From my understanding the issue is not the quality of the FMB .. it will be the same as the RoF FMB.. it is just a bit cumbersome to use at the moment.. from what I have read.. but not impossible to learn and certainly not impossible to tweak however based on Jason's post quoted again below.. I understand where they are coming from and wholeheartedly agree... Just as when the initial limited early access was announced.. yeah it was not the thing everyone hoped for .. but it was what was best for the team to do what they are trying to do.. This is the same deal. Guys, Just a quick note. A separate standalone ME is possible to make by a third party. We always thought someone from the ROF community would come along and do it, but no one ever did and our discussions with talented people who could have possibly provided that went nowhere. We found this to be odd since simmers are such a motivated and creative crowd. Maybe it was because it was WWI and not WWII? Not sure, but Pat Wilson and others have proven that a lot can be done with our current ME scripts if they are matched up to some kind of GUI. Based on our experience with ROF, we have no indication this will change with BOS. So it would probably be up to us to make a new ME. Now we know what you guys want is a 2D/3D integrated system with the GUI etc. similar to the old Sturmovik ME. For us to do that takes time and quite a bit of money. With the time and budget constraints we were facing when we took on this project it was decided to make a working product first and then see what else we can do. At launch you will have the QMB and the Career system that will generate a lot of missions for you to fly. Yes, some users will want to make their own complex custom missions, we understand that, but we need to get through the initial release first. As a compromise we are going to work with some folks we already have a relationship with so they can provide some extra mission content for the community. As Loft stated and I stated this is a compromise we are going to implement this summer for a wide variety of reasons already discussed. My suggestion to everyone interested in this topic is to just be patient and fly BOS to it's fullest extent and enjoy what we have built so far. We've come a long way in a short time. To get completely hung up on this one topic is not really helping the cause right now. Jason Perhaps there are some folks out there who have experience in doing something like this.. other than those we know.. and perhaps they will take up the task as a labor of love .. I don't know.. If I knew how to and had the time I certainly would give it a go.. This development studio (777) is the best I have seen in recent years for developing classic fighter type sim projects whether it be WWI or WWII, the realism/immersion factor from environmental and mechanical rendering is profound in RoF and is what gave me absolute confidence that 777 studios could produce an absolutely stunning and robust WWII flight sim product i.e. a new version of my beloved IL2 Sturmovik! When the news was revealed that 777 would be carrying the il2 torch, I was extremely pleased knowing that they would do the product proud. As to date from what I have seen from the weekly updates, it looks absolutely stunning and I have wondered many times if perhaps I should have joined the early access program. To this point (for me anyway) they have been right on track, but to to realize that potentially the FMB (development model) from the original IL2 Sturmovik (or similar) might not be carried forward in the initial release was a very real indication for me that 777 studios were not seeing it as through the eyes of the IL2 fans. Mission building autonomy is the foundation of IL2's success, if you're a fan you know this already! Are any of you 777 guys actual IL2 fans? or are you all just doing the best you can to understand the fans perspective because it's what's on your job sheets? It's a simple question, not an attack. I don't envy any of you and good luck. CS. This is what we all need to keep in mind... and I am sure that some of them are IL2 fans.. or did you forget where the 777 actually comes from? .. and by the way... it is not too late for you to join the early access.. So what do you suggest they drop from the release to make time to develop the FMB, the single player campaign perhaps? Or they could put the release back a few months maybe. Or they could do what they have promised to do and produce a new user friendly FMB after the game is released. They have kept their word for the most part.. albeit they had to change some plans as bit but that is understandable.. no plan of this magnitude goes exactly according to the script.. so we all need to just calm down and have a little faith.. You seem to forget option 3: release the FMB they have got and deliver an improved one whenever it is ready! Isn't that what they will do? When it is ready.. From my understanding it will be released as the RoF MB made for BoS.. but they will obviously have to rework somethings just for the different sim alone which of course they have not done because they are too busy trying to finish the sim. I'm not suggesting anything other than the fact that they have seriously underestimated the importance of user autonomy for mission building. CS. Perhaps initially .. but after this reaction bear in mind that it has been stated that the ME will be released.. when it is ready. I would prefer to have the finished sim by September with a more fully realized ME 6 months later than to have to wait another 6 months for the sim to be released with the ME... but hey.. that's me. From what I have been told the worst thing about the RoF ME is that is is not as user friendly but it is just as powerful and actually more powerful than the FMB in IL2 it just does not have a GUI .... yet.. and it is not set up for BoS .... yet.... it is still the RoF ME.. because they have been working feverishly on BoS.... to meet their stated goals as close to "on time" and "on budget" as possible .... I can see it now... We already have folks saying... "It's spring.. where is it?" Can you imagine the torches and pitchforks if this thing gets delayed any further than it has? Cows would be dropping all over the place.. 1
Bassly Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 I am getting tired of seeing adults acting like children over an issue that will be resolved at some point. Spot on. Good to see that someone has guts to explain this simple issue word by word, which seems to be somehow impossible to understand and yet I wonder will there still be someone who feels need to complain.
KodiakJac Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 Spot on. Good to see that someone has guts to explain this simple issue word by word, which seems to be somehow impossible to understand and yet I wonder will there still be someone who feels need to complain. I don't see it that way. After looking a little more closely at Mission4Today (one of 3 sites with active IL-2 players and community generated content still being added daily) I found over 500 single player campaigns (each being 10 to over 100 missions in length) and over 1300 single player missions and multi-player coop missions posted with over half a million downloads just in those three categories alone. This is the foundation and heart of IL-2. I'm guessing that 99.9% of those players are excited about BoS and hopeful it will be the successor to IL-2 1946/CloD offering the same style of gameplay. When we see that will not be the case at initial release it is disappointing. I play on MP dogfight servers very little and I'm guessing there is some crossover, but many players prefer one style over the other. My personal concern is that 777/1C won't get a feel for the total market by releasing a version without a FMB at initial release. Are we acting like children when a segment of the market is saying they won't be buying BoS until it offers the style of gameplay they enjoy? I'm a guinea pig for my friends in buying BoS and none will be buying BoS until it includes a FMB, I know that for sure in talking to them. Are they acting like children by not purchasing a game that doesn't offer the style of gameplay they enjoy? I don't think so. Instead, this is honest feedback from a segment of the market expressing their concerns and buying plans. 3
Bassly Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) I don't see it that way. After looking a little more closely at Mission4Today (one of 3 sites with active IL-2 players and community generated content still being added daily) I found over 500 single player campaigns (each being 10 to over 100 missions in length) and over 1300 single player missions and multi-player coop missions posted with over half a million downloads just in those three categories alone. This is the foundation and heart of IL-2. I'm guessing that 99.9% of those players are excited about BoS and hopeful it will be the successor to IL-2 1946/CloD offering the same style of gameplay. When we see that will not be the case at initial release it is disappointing. I play on MP dogfight servers very little and I'm guessing there is some crossover, but many players prefer one style over the other. My personal concern is that 777/1C won't get a feel for the total market by releasing a version without a FMB at initial release. Are we acting like children when a segment of the market is saying they won't be buying BoS until it offers the style of gameplay they enjoy? I'm a guinea pig for my friends in buying BoS and none will be buying BoS until it includes a FMB, I know that for sure in talking to them. Are they acting like children by not purchasing a game that doesn't offer the style of gameplay they enjoy? I don't think so. Instead, this is honest feedback from a segment of the market expressing their concerns and buying plans. There will be a FMB for everyone eventually, I'm sure your friends can wait for it? If 777/1C says there won't be FMB at game realease there wont be and I'm pretty sure, if there will be a FMB before game release you will notice it. No doubt they do understand the loss for not releasing FMB in time for everyone. Thing is, what does constant complaining, threatening to not buy the game/leaving or any similar act change? Nothing, simply nothing. You really think saying "I'm not going to play with you" will change their work phase? Instead of discussing something useful as Zak politely asked, most choose the opposite way, ignore all the further explanations and start the mimimi barrage. I'll just quote once more in case you completely skipped Bearcats post: So it would be more useful to discuss MB features, for instance, but not us not giving it to everyone right now. Furthermore we don't have BOS mission builder, only ROF builder. Well, you still want to continue repeating or discuss something useful? Edited May 17, 2014 by Bassly 1
Panzerlang Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 I'm wondering how many servers will be up offering anything other than air-quake dogfights if there are insufficient numbers of people with the FMB who would create missions offering more. 1
Bassly Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 I'm wondering how many servers will be up offering anything other than air-quake dogfights if there are insufficient numbers of people with the FMB who would create missions offering more. Few or none.
Dakpilot Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 It is all moot, the devs are aware. they have a plan, they are sticking to the plan. the fmb will be available as soon as is possible and that will not change, as has been said multiple times. Limited early access: Panic! I wuz cheated!....etc old history move along The trees whirl about and will make you sick...old history panic over The game engine will only support a few moving vehicles etc.It is useless for big missions!! ......http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/6470-boswar-testing-tonight-2100-cet/ panic over Maybe when the game is nearer 85% some angst is acceptable Cheers Dakpilot
Bearcat Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 I don't see it that way. After looking a little more closely at Mission4Today (one of 3 sites with active IL-2 players and community generated content still being added daily) I found over 500 single player campaigns (each being 10 to over 100 missions in length) and over 1300 single player missions and multi-player coop missions posted with over half a million downloads just in those three categories alone. This is the foundation and heart of IL-2. I'm guessing that 99.9% of those players are excited about BoS and hopeful it will be the successor to IL-2 1946/CloD offering the same style of gameplay. When we see that will not be the case at initial release it is disappointing. I play on MP dogfight servers very little and I'm guessing there is some crossover, but many players prefer one style over the other. My personal concern is that 777/1C won't get a feel for the total market by releasing a version without a FMB at initial release. Are we acting like children when a segment of the market is saying they won't be buying BoS until it offers the style of gameplay they enjoy? I'm a guinea pig for my friends in buying BoS and none will be buying BoS until it includes a FMB, I know that for sure in talking to them. Are they acting like children by not purchasing a game that doesn't offer the style of gameplay they enjoy? I don't think so. Instead, this is honest feedback from a segment of the market expressing their concerns and buying plans. Then it's their loss... they like you and everyone else crying about this non issue need to just suck it up and get over it.. This thread is done. All that can be said has been.
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