The full mission builder discussion.

May 14, 2014

I clearly understand 777 stance on this and most important thing over all is commercial success. Just do want to state how much I enjoyed the FMB. Please first and foremost get out a great product, ( which looks to be going very well based on your Alpha build ) but just make sure FMB is up there on the priority list, as it does have a strong correlation to long term success.

May 14, 2014

I have been a host at IL2 for over 10 years and not once did I EVER run into that problem. The OPTION of being able to have them would make both, YOU and I happy as well as everyone else. Tick or untick the box and your problem and mine could be solved.

+1

May 14, 2014

The content of this topic concerns me greatly, without a good, user friendly and intuitive FMB this title will not be in my collection.

From personal experience with the original IL2, the ability to change small details in a mission even something as small as an approach angle by a few degrees, can change the feel of a mission dramatically, never mind the endless list of other small details that one might freely modify with a good FMB.

The ability to easily and intuitively create and modify missions is what has kept the original IL2 alive all these years, to lose this would be as if to no longer be carrying the IL2 torch.

CrazySchmidt.

May 14, 2014

Hey CS.. ! How are ya? Good to see you...

May 14, 2014

Personally I'd love to see the IL2 editor as an open source project. There are plenty of talented and motivated people in the community who would get their teeth into it and it would open the doors for extra functionality that certain people have an intense interest in, like randomization.

Getting 'stuck' with one dev team's interpretation of what a mission editor should provide seems kind of old school; there's no money in it so why not open up the maps and see what the community can come up with?

@Bearcat: Thx for the mention. :-)

@CrazySchmidt: Good to see you around still. ~

May 14, 2014

Please don't take this the wrong way. Please take this as a concern of someone who wants this game to survive and prosper.

Why do you guys in the development team are such control freaks?

Why do you need to control every aspect of our gaming experience? You want to control when, where and how we use skins. You want to control what skins we use and where we can unlock them. You want to control how, when and in what game mode we can unlock and use the load out options for the aircraft. Now you want to control who can use the mission builder?

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to do with this attempt to micromanage our gaming experience.

Nobody buys game to use them how somebody else wants. People buy games to have fun the way they want, in the time they have.

All you are doing with this is killing the possible future of this game.

When you put the IL2 in the name of the game, a lot of people, who don't follow the forums, expect certain freedoms they experienced with all the previous versions of Il-2.

You are not making this game attractive for many potential buyers if you try to control so many aspects of their gaming experience.

Remember. In the end this is a game, not a job. (This is also the reason why the powerful ROF mission builder is not liked by so many people).

I suppose you are speaking about MP?

If you want to uncontrol the control LOL in that mode play you'll pretty much will have to do that on your own server 'cause every serious server/missions like e.g. Syndicate/Vanderstock's or 69 Giap/Stenka's is about control from start to end with locks on this and that and almost everything, even skins ;O) while what does not have locks of their own may become so through mission parameters e.g. like what planes become available when depending the mission development.

Edited May 14, 2014 by West

May 15, 2014

BC and FlyingNutcase, Hi guys how are you doing?

I'm good, but don't drop in as often these days. I'm kinda waiting to see what will happen with the finished product before I decide whether I will be onboard or not with this new IL2 offering. It certainly is looking very nice, though the quality of the FMB will be a key point to watch for me.

Cheers guys,

CS.

May 15, 2014

Guys,

Just a quick note. A separate standalone ME is possible to make by a third party. We always thought someone from the ROF community would come along and do it, but no one ever did and our discussions with talented people who could have possibly provided that went nowhere. We found this to be odd since simmers are such a motivated and creative crowd. Maybe it was because it was WWI and not WWII? Not sure, but Pat Wilson and others have proven that a lot can be done with our current ME scripts if they are matched up to some kind of GUI. Based on our experience with ROF, we have no indication this will change with BOS. So it would probably be up to us to make a new ME.

Now we know what you guys want is a 2D/3D integrated system with the GUI etc. similar to the old Sturmovik ME. For us to do that takes time and quite a bit of money. With the time and budget constraints we were facing when we took on this project it was decided to make a working product first and then see what else we can do.

At launch you will have the QMB and the Career system that will generate a lot of missions for you to fly. Yes, some users will want to make their own complex custom missions, we understand that, but we need to get through the initial release first. As a compromise we are going to work with some folks we already have a relationship with so they can provide some extra mission content for the community. As Loft stated and I stated this is a compromise we are going to implement this summer for a wide variety of reasons already discussed.

My suggestion to everyone interested in this topic is to just be patient and fly BOS to it's fullest extent and enjoy what we have built so far. We've come a long way in a short time. To get completely hung up on this one topic is not really helping the cause right now.

Jason

May 15, 2014

Thanks again for posting on the subject. If I may ask, could you please try extending your relationship to ShamrockOneFive (IceFire)? He's not only one of the best and most active mission/campaign makers in Il-2, but also one of the nicest people I've met on the Il-2 boards. I'd guess we'd all win if you did.

May 15, 2014

Thank you for the information Jason.

At the risk of sounding blunt, this topic is important to a lot of people here and for pretty good reason, you will be hard pressed to find a group that plays a flight sim together that does not make it's own missions built for it's own specific purposes (player count, mission style, etc), the big servers like Syndicate, New wings and others are only the tip of a iceberg in that regard and while I think we are all okay with the idea of waiting for something that WILL come, waiting and hoping for something that MIGHT come is a different story all together and changes things as a whole.

I won't lie, I had always assumed that a editor was part of the deal, part of that $95 I spent and considering the fact that every sim (including ROF) that has been released in the last 10 years or so has had a editor built in, you will forgive the assumption, you will also forgive my worry as a editor is a very important part of a flight sim, more specifically, the editor is what gives the sim longer legs, it gives it staying power.

The idea that a few will have access to it is a little confusing, I mean, are we talking about having them take requests? Will groups be able to post a request on the forums for a mission that matches their specific needs or are we talking about a few "one size fits all" missions that everyone will have ot use since there will be no other way to make multiplayer content?

There is no doubt that this forum and those in it probably represent the more devoted end of the flight sim spectrum and I fully understand that we are not the primary audience, heck, I even agree that we as a market alone can't sustain a product but at the same time, as we have learned from the situation with 'Microsoft Flight', it is important to not close out that core audience entirely, there is a balance to be found and providing a mission editor is part of that balance.

Now, as others (and myself) have said, there are ways you could release the editor publicly while still making it clear that there is not going to be any support (at least not at the moment), it would not be terribly difficult (or even costly) to just put the editor on the website as a optional download, place a disclaimer in front of it (and even have that same disclaimer pop up every time you start the editor if need be) and let those that actually want to use it to have access while not burdening anyone who does not need it with it's presence on their machines.

So, finally, in order to really clarify what I am saying here and what I think a lot of us in this thread are saying is that we understand, we know that it won't be the IL-2 1946 editor, we know it won't be the DCS editor or the Cliffs of Dover editor, there are folks that would like something easier but as a whole, the general point we are all trying to make is that we need a editor in general, it could be complicated, easy, it does not matter, we just need something to go on, something that will allow anyone who needs it to make missions for themselves, to provide the specific experience that they desire.

Which brings me to the question that I have been kinda dancing around this whole thread,

What is the official word here? I mean, is 777/1C's position that there WILL be a public release of the editor at some point in the near future after the release of the game or is it something that is still up in the air? Should we even be getting our hopes up on this?

I don't mean to sound negative but this is a big issue and perhaps it deserves to be clearly laid out to help us refine our expectations.

May 15, 2014

I hope 777/1C sells a gazillion copies of BoS when the final product is released. If it doesn't sell like hotcakes it will be because it is missing a FMB and I hope they will recognize that. As BoS stands now (without a FMB) they won't get squad sales or many single player sales. Maybe those two groups together are still a minority of customers with the majority being MP dogfight players...I don't know. But speaking for myself as a single player there is nothing to do in BoS right now. I don't want goals of earning a skin or weapon, I want goals of completing long complex missions and campaigns. I want to participate in the siege of Stalingrad and I'm afraid that's only going to happen through 3rd party campaigns.

MP dogfighting, QMB, grinding for gold all makes me worry that BoS has been aimed at the arcade crowd all along. A new and better WarThunder. I don't play WarThunder. I play IL-2 1946 and CloD single player campaigns. I was hoping BoS would be the next generation of those games.

May 15, 2014

If it doesn't sell like hotcakes it will be because it is missing a FMB and I hope they will recognize that. As BoS stands now (without a FMB) they won't get squad sales or many single player sales.

You really think that majority of single player guys care about full mission builder?

I want goals of completing long complex missions and campaigns. I want to participate in the siege of Stalingrad and I'm afraid that's only going to happen through 3rd party campaigns.

Based on what? Single player campaigns have been announced to be one of the major features of BoS. Maybe devs are not capable of delivering those, but there is absolutely no evidence indicating that. On the other hand, scenarios we had earlier indicated that they are capable.

MP dogfighting, QMB, grinding for gold all makes me worry that BoS has been aimed at the arcade crowd all along. A new and better WarThunder.

Wow. Just wow.

May 15, 2014

Guys,

Just a quick note. A separate standalone ME is possible to make by a third party. We always thought someone from the ROF community would come along and do it, but no one ever did and our discussions with talented people who could have possibly provided that went nowhere. We found this to be odd since simmers are such a motivated and creative crowd. Maybe it was because it was WWI and not WWII? Not sure, but Pat Wilson and others have proven that a lot can be done with our current ME scripts if they are matched up to some kind of GUI. Based on our experience with ROF, we have no indication this will change with BOS. So it would probably be up to us to make a new ME.

Just open-source what you have so far. Many folks will want to look what they can do with that

This way only those will get ME who will walk through the git pulling, compiling and building. Maybe some of them will even contribute.

May 15, 2014

You really think that majority of single player guys care about full mission builder?

Based on what? Single player campaigns have been announced to be one of the major features of BoS. Maybe devs are not capable of delivering those, but there is absolutely no evidence indicating that. On the other hand, scenarios we had earlier indicated that they are capable.

Wow. Just wow.

Thanks, Mprhead. And another thing is that the Campaign hasn't been shown yet - this is where you'll join siege of Stalingrad and so on. It's "a bit" early to complain, Bucksnort.

May 15, 2014

Escribo en castellano porque me resulta más fácil expresarme, por lo cual pido disculpa si ofendo a alguien por ello.

Yo también creí, que el ME era parte del importe a pagar, esta creencia reside cuando se generó la discusión del modo cooperativo a la cual los desarrolladores dijeron que no iba a haber, pero que se podrían crear misiones cooperativa con el modo dogfigth del ME. Por lo tanto supuse, que él ME del ROF iba a ser readecuado para el BOS.

Una campaña de un solo jugador, o servidores públicos no me va a generar la satisfacción que requiero de un simulador. Porque se preguntaran? En la primera no vuelo con mis camaradas, en la segunda cada quien va por su lado y ni mencionar el idioma. No quiero decir con esto que el producto sea malo, sino que el nivel de satisfacción que me venía generando ya no es el mismo. Lamento que no se haya aclarado las cosas en tiempo y forma, ya que la verdad no hubiese comprado el producto si sabía que no iba a poseer un ME.

Disculpen

May 15, 2014

How much cash would it take for you guys to be able to commit to a new FMB? ie. Is it feasible to have a fundraising/kick starter drive to raise the cash?

I was thinking the same thing.

May 15, 2014

Guys,

Just a quick note. A separate standalone ME is possible to make by a third party. We always thought someone from the ROF community would come along and do it, but no one ever did and our discussions with talented people who could have possibly provided that went nowhere. We found this to be odd since simmers are such a motivated and creative crowd. Maybe it was because it was WWI and not WWII? Not sure, but Pat Wilson and others have proven that a lot can be done with our current ME scripts if they are matched up to some kind of GUI. Based on our experience with ROF, we have no indication this will change with BOS. So it would probably be up to us to make a new ME.

Now we know what you guys want is a 2D/3D integrated system with the GUI etc. similar to the old Sturmovik ME. For us to do that takes time and quite a bit of money. With the time and budget constraints we were facing when we took on this project it was decided to make a working product first and then see what else we can do.

At launch you will have the QMB and the Career system that will generate a lot of missions for you to fly. Yes, some users will want to make their own complex custom missions, we understand that, but we need to get through the initial release first. As a compromise we are going to work with some folks we already have a relationship with so they can provide some extra mission content for the community. As Loft stated and I stated this is a compromise we are going to implement this summer for a wide variety of reasons already discussed.

My suggestion to everyone interested in this topic is to just be patient and fly BOS to it's fullest extent and enjoy what we have built so far. We've come a long way in a short time. To get completely hung up on this one topic is not really helping the cause right now.

Jason

I suspect that that may be part of it.. (WWI vs WWII) and it is also one reason why I keep dropping hints at guys like CS & UberD. Mission Mate and the UQMG were not made using source code.. they just used what was available. The IL2 style FMB has become all the rage now because we are used to it and it has been around for so long but remember, when IL2 was first launched a lot of folks thought the FMB was too complicated.. and did not use it.. That is why we got the UberQuickMissionGenerator and later Mission Mate in the first place and they did a fantastic job of filling in the gaps as far as making the FMB more user friendly. To this day I still use MM and the UQMG even added a spawn feature.. where you could have a spawn feature as in after you shot down the last plane a new wave would spawn.. Sort of like what we have in the BoS QMB now.. It is also why Flying Nutcase made what I think was the first really good FMB tutorial.. A talented coder or a small team of coders with the time and energy and Teamspeak could do some wonderful things with the ME as it is but there are not a lot of folks who know how to use it yet. We need to be patient and we need to get our hands on the final release.. so a lot of the angst over this is just a waste of time for now because we do not even have the final product yet.

Thank you for the information Jason.

At the risk of sounding blunt, this topic is important to a lot of people here and for pretty good reason, you will be hard pressed to find a group that plays a flight sim together that does not make it's own missions built for it's own specific purposes (player count, mission style, etc), the big servers like Syndicate, New wings and others are only the tip of a iceberg in that regard and while I think we are all okay with the idea of waiting for something that WILL come, waiting and hoping for something that MIGHT come is a different story all together and changes things as a whole.

I won't lie, I had always assumed that a editor was part of the deal, part of that $95 I spent and considering the fact that every sim (including ROF) that has been released in the last 10 years or so has had a editor built in, you will forgive the assumption, you will also forgive my worry as a editor is a very important part of a flight sim, more specifically, the editor is what gives the sim longer legs, it gives it staying power.

The idea that a few will have access to it is a little confusing, I mean, are we talking about having them take requests? Will groups be able to post a request on the forums for a mission that matches their specific needs or are we talking about a few "one size fits all" missions that everyone will have ot use since there will be no other way to make multiplayer content?

There is no doubt that this forum and those in it probably represent the more devoted end of the flight sim spectrum and I fully understand that we are not the primary audience, heck, I even agree that we as a market alone can't sustain a product but at the same time, as we have learned from the situation with 'Microsoft Flight', it is important to not close out that core audience entirely, there is a balance to be found and providing a mission editor is part of that balance.

Now, as others (and myself) have said, there are ways you could release the editor publicly while still making it clear that there is not going to be any support (at least not at the moment), it would not be terribly difficult (or even costly) to just put the editor on the website as a optional download, place a disclaimer in front of it (and even have that same disclaimer pop up every time you start the editor if need be) and let those that actually want to use it to have access while not burdening anyone who does not need it with it's presence on their machines.

So, finally, in order to really clarify what I am saying here and what I think a lot of us in this thread are saying is that we understand, we know that it won't be the IL-2 1946 editor, we know it won't be the DCS editor or the Cliffs of Dover editor, there are folks that would like something easier but as a whole, the general point we are all trying to make is that we need a editor in general, it could be complicated, easy, it does not matter, we just need something to go on, something that will allow anyone who needs it to make missions for themselves, to provide the specific experience that they desire.

Which brings me to the question that I have been kinda dancing around this whole thread,

What is the official word here? I mean, is 777/1C's position that there WILL be a public release of the editor at some point in the near future after the release of the game or is it something that is still up in the air? Should we even be getting our hopes up on this?

I don't mean to sound negative but this is a big issue and perhaps it deserves to be clearly laid out to help us refine our expectations.

I think a lot of guys are misunderstanding things... Zak has already said that the ME will be released...

We do hear you asking for the MB. We will give it to players when it's ready. We can't make it possible sooner that it's planned (even extra money wouldn't help much since it's about vacant specialists, not about paying more to the existing ones)

Startrekmike, please, don't you worry. What I'm doing here now is trying to calm ppl down by saying obvious things that some of them do not hear for some mysterious reason. MB will be given to players in future. So why are you worried that much? Let's imagine that it was not about the MB but about multiplayer. And you were telling us how come the MP mode is not available yet? And I would keep telling you that we'll give MP in future.

Same story here.

So it would be more useful to discuss MB features, for instance, but not us not giving it to everyone right now. Furthermore we don't have BOS mission builder, only ROF builder.

but it is not a simple GUI based editor.. I think people are assuming that there will be no editor.. From my understanding that is not the case.. I think that at this point too many folks are getting way too excited about this... I also think that considering the fact that Zak has already said that it will be the RoF editor.. perhaps folks should begin to consider what that editor can do .. and then consider some of the things in my first post.. I am sure that CS and UD are not the only coders around here.. but perhaps if a willing and capable community member or members working together.. took the reigns to spearhead some like a MM/UQMG 2D type of interface for BoS who knows what would come of it.. They could get on a TS server and just hash it out.. decide who will do what and send stuff back and forth so no one person was doing all the work but the creative talents of al;l of them could be fully utilized.. We need to remember that IL2 was great not just because it was a great product .. but because of the community.. No body told or asked the creators of MM, The UQMG, VAC, IL2 STAB, IL2 Mat Manager, The MLR, IL2 Joy, Bag The Hun, Bombers Calc, The Coop Generator, IL2 Manager, The DCG.. and countless other fantastic community member created utilities to do what they did.. They saw a need and said.. "Hmmmmmm I can fix that... " and they did. Flying Nutcase made his FMB tutorial because he knew how to use it and wanted to share... That is the same sense of community we need to create and foster here .. The devs are doing their jobs... They are trying their damndest to create the best WWII aerial combat experience they can.. We as a community need to step up to the plate and consider where IL2 would have been if it was not for the community.. and act accordingly where we can. The devs have a plan.. and they are sticking to it for the reasons I just stated.. so asking them to deviate from their plan will only be counter productive.. We need to be patient.. We need to see what we have .. and taste what is on the plate before we get too overly concerned about the meal .. It is still in the kitchen and we have only nibbled on samples.. but the main course is not done yet. Those of us who can ... should consider it. This is the 21st century and if musicians can compile a CD over the internet without ever coming together in a studio.. surely some of the folks in this community who love this thing we do and have the skills can figure out a way to combine those skills to create some of the same kind of magic that was done in IL2. If one person can do it on his own then great.. but if it needs a small team .. it is doable. It is just a matter of having the time and the will. If I could do it and I had the time I would attempt it myself.. From my understanding of the RoF ME it is actually more powerful and versatile than the one in IL2.. So those who know the editor can share what they know with those who have the desire and know how to understand it and get a ball rolling...

We have become spoiled by IL2 .. but we all need to step back and remember it was not always this easy in IL2 .. It became easy through a process that took time and a lot of creativity on the part of people like us .. who just loved what they did and took it upon themselves to make a difference.

I hope 777/1C sells a gazillion copies of BoS when the final product is released. If it doesn't sell like hotcakes it will be because it is missing a FMB and I hope they will recognize that. As BoS stands now (without a FMB) they won't get squad sales or many single player sales. Maybe those two groups together are still a minority of customers with the majority being MP dogfight players...I don't know. But speaking for myself as a single player there is nothing to do in BoS right now. I don't want goals of earning a skin or weapon, I want goals of completing long complex missions and campaigns. I want to participate in the siege of Stalingrad and I'm afraid that's only going to happen through 3rd party campaigns.

MP dogfighting, QMB, grinding for gold all makes me worry that BoS has been aimed at the arcade crowd all along. A new and better WarThunder. I don't play WarThunder. I play IL-2 1946 and CloD single player campaigns. I was hoping BoS would be the next generation of those games.

............ Really?

Not even...

May 15, 2014

I suspect that that may be part of it.. (WWI vs WWII) and it is also one reason why I keep dropping hints at guys like CS & UberD. Mission Mate and the UQMG were not made using source code.. they just used what was available. The IL2 style FMB has become all the rage now because we are used to it and it has been around for so long but remember, when IL2 was first launched a lot of folks thought the FMB was too complicated.. and did not use it.. That is why we got the UberQuickMissionGenerator and later Mission Mate in the first place and they did a fantastic job of filling in the gaps as far as making the FMB more user friendly. To this day I still use MM and the UQMG even added a spawn feature.. where you could have a spawn feature as in after you shot down the last plane a new wave would spawn.. Sort of like what we have in the BoS QMB now.. It is also why Flying Nutcase made what I think was the first really good FMB tutorial.. A talented coder or a small team of coders with the time and energy and Teamspeak could do some wonderful things with the ME as it is but there are not a lot of folks who know how to use it yet. We need to be patient and we need to get our hands on the final release.. so a lot of the angst over this is just a waste of time for now because we do not even have the final product yet.

I think a lot of guys are misunderstanding things... Zak has already said that the ME will be released...

but it is not a simple GUI based editor.. I think people are assuming that there will be no editor.. From my understanding that is not the case.. I think that at this point too many folks are getting way too excited about this... I also think that considering the fact that Zak has already said that it will be the RoF editor.. perhaps folks should begin to consider what that editor can do .. and then consider some of the things in my first post.. I am sure that CS and UD are not the only coders around here.. but perhaps if a willing and capable community member or members working together.. took the reigns to spearhead some like a MM/UQMG 2D type of interface for BoS who knows what would come of it.. They could get on a TS server and just hash it out.. decide who will do what and send stuff back and forth so no one person was doing all the work but the creative talents of al;l of them could be fully utilized.. We need to remember that IL2 was great not just because it was a great product .. but because of the community.. No body told or asked the creators of MM, The UQMG, VAC, IL2 STAB, IL2 Mat Manager, The MLR, IL2 Joy, Bag The Hun, Bombers Calc, The Coop Generator, IL2 Manager, The DCG.. and countless other fantastic community member created utilities to do what they did.. They saw a need and said.. "Hmmmmmm I can fix that... " and they did. Flying Nutcase made his FMB tutorial because he knew how to use it and wanted to share... That is the same sense of community we need to create and foster here .. The devs are doing their jobs... They are trying their damndest to create the best WWII aerial combat experience they can.. We as a community need to step up to the plate and consider where IL2 would have been if it was not for the community.. and act accordingly where we can. The devs have a plan.. and they are sticking to it for the reasons I just stated.. so asking them to deviate from their plan will only be counter productive.. We need to be patient.. We need to see what we have .. and taste what is on the plate before we get too overly concerned about the meal .. It is still in the kitchen and we have only nibbled on samples.. but the main course is not done yet. Those of us who can ... should consider it. This is the 21st century and if musicians can compile a CD over the internet without ever coming together in a studio.. surely some of the folks in this community who love this thing we do and have the skills can figure out a way to combine those skills to create some of the same kind of magic that was done in IL2. If one person can do it on his own then great.. but if it needs a small team .. it is doable. It is just a matter of having the time and the will. If I could do it and I had the time I would attempt it myself.. From my understanding of the RoF ME it is actually more powerful and versatile than the one in IL2.. So those who know the editor can share what they know with those who have the desire and know how to understand it and get a ball rolling...

We have become spoiled by IL2 .. but we all need to step back and remember it was not always this easy in IL2 .. It became easy through a process that took time and a lot of creativity on the part of people like us .. who just loved what they did and took it upon themselves to make a difference.

............ Really?

Not even...

Bearcat, I am not trying to argue with you or seem obtuse so forgive me if it comes out that way but I feel that there are conflicting answers from the dev's in regards to the FMB issue, Zak says not to worry, that the editor will be coming and that it is simply a matter of some amount of time but Jason seems to be painting a much less certain view on the situation, that is why I am personally concerned, I have yet to see a post indicating that we will 100% be getting a editor released publicly but you may have seen something that I have not seen yet, if so, please point me in that direction.

Again, not trying to argue or be rude or anything, just pointing out why I am still posting on this thread.

May 15, 2014

Guys,

Just a quick note. A separate standalone ME is possible to make by a third party. We always thought someone from the ROF community would come along and do it, but no one ever did and our discussions with talented people who could have possibly provided that went nowhere. We found this to be odd since simmers are such a motivated and creative crowd. Maybe it was because it was WWI and not WWII? Not sure, but Pat Wilson and others have proven that a lot can be done with our current ME scripts if they are matched up to some kind of GUI. Based on our experience with ROF, we have no indication this will change with BOS. So it would probably be up to us to make a new ME.

Now we know what you guys want is a 2D/3D integrated system with the GUI etc. similar to the old Sturmovik ME. For us to do that takes time and quite a bit of money. With the time and budget constraints we were facing when we took on this project it was decided to make a working product first and then see what else we can do.

At launch you will have the QMB and the Career system that will generate a lot of missions for you to fly. Yes, some users will want to make their own complex custom missions, we understand that, but we need to get through the initial release first. As a compromise we are going to work with some folks we already have a relationship with so they can provide some extra mission content for the community. As Loft stated and I stated this is a compromise we are going to implement this summer for a wide variety of reasons already discussed.

My suggestion to everyone interested in this topic is to just be patient and fly BOS to it's fullest extent and enjoy what we have built so far. We've come a long way in a short time. To get completely hung up on this one topic is not really helping the cause right now.

Jason

Jason, it sound bad for me, because you already have one of the most powerfull editor that some of us has tested with RoF. I don't understand why don't you want to release it. You are fade up to read that it's a difficult tools. Ok, me too, but between paint and photoshop, what do you think the skinners use ?

And if you wait a few time to have an improve FMB, do you thing that an online squad will wait it ?

As a mission builder on RoF, i spend several hours on a mission, and sometimes, during the mission we find a problem. So if we don't have acces to the FMB, we have to wait that someone can debug the mission. All mission builder from a squad have a pool a mission which give the possibility to change if ther is a problem which can't be solve in a few minutes. In the case we don't have access to the FMB, a nice mission builder spend his weekend on my mission (i don't think that someone will spend many time for people he don't know, and build mission as soon he has free time for comunity, maybe several ), but when we run it, there is a problem, so the day we fly is out, and all the squad can go to bed. So, you can tell us, it's a WAF limitation.

For people who play only in multiplayer like me, if they don't have a personn in his squad who has an access to the FMB, it's a real handicap.

If you release the FMB like RoF, there will be some unhappy men (not me, for me it's one of the greatest strengh of BoS), but not releasing any FMB at the game release, and you will have more unhappy men. Have a look on that pool :

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/6461-do-you-want-fmb-full-mission-builder-be-released/

You can see that people want an FMB even if it's a difficult one.

Please do not do that mistake of not releasing a FMB at the game release.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Habu

May 15, 2014

You really think that majority of single player guys care about full mission builder?

Where else will a huge body of single player content come from? Guys sit and read books about WWII aviation and build single player campaigns in 1946 and CloD based on those books. The campaigns created this way are fantastic. It's not realistic to expect 1C to do that...it has to come from the community at large. And the process can't start without a FMB. That's all I'm saying.

The argument seems to be a fear of a negative buzz if BoS is released with a FMB that is too complicated. My fear is a worse negative buzz if BoS is released without one at all and loss of sales to those who frequent SAS1946, Mission4Today and AirWarFare.com Like I said earlier, maybe that group is a small segment of the market...I don't know. Mission4Today has about 400 single player campaigns at about 1000 downloads each (some campaigns it's much higher). That's 400,000 downloads at that one site. I don't know if that is a big number or a small number.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Bucksnort

May 15, 2014

Does anyone remember Flying Nutcase's FMB guide? Or Sturmovik Technica? This is what we will need. In the meantime ....

Those were happy days!

May 15, 2014

At launch you will have the QMB and the Career system that will generate a lot of missions for you to fly. Yes, some users will want to make their own complex custom missions, we understand that, but we need to get through the initial release first. As a compromise we are going to work with some folks we already have a relationship with so they can provide some extra mission content for the community. As Loft stated and I stated this is a compromise we are going to implement this summer for a wide variety of reasons already discussed.

Well, if we don't have the ability to serve up private sessions at launch, then it won't matter much to me; however...

Jason, I’ve read your explanation regarding why you’d choose to limit access to the FMB, but this path is still confusing. If the bulk of reason behind limiting access to the FMB from day 1 is the support problem and possibly some negative word-of-mouth, why not require a disclaimer and NDA with each download until you’re more comfortable about sharing it?

The call for a “Simpler Editor” is completely relative. I do not expect anything more than the tools that the devs use (well, in English would be cool). If that means all we’ll see is a modified RoF mission editor, then so be it. Those that desire to learn how to use it, will.

Please do not alienate your silent supporters like me. I have created and modified many, many missions for RoF since day 1 of the availability of its FMB and I continue to do so for a smallish group. This is the only reason I continue to play the game today, create missions for it and buy your DLC. Beyond a fairly trouble-free experience, in retrospect, the (available) RoF FMB is the primary reason we had continued our support of RoF over the years.

Do not judge the importance of having a FMB available by how much from the previous offering is publicly available. Despite how frequently I use the RoF FMB, I have no public offerings today. I know for a fact there are others like me who do not offer missions publicly because I see them played in private sessions.

If your goal is to have things produced by the FMB be available to the public, then that is an entirely new set of problems. Personally, I found the process of publicly offering missions overly time-consuming and seldom rewarding enough to sustain the effort. This was directly related to the time required to test missions, not the difficulty of manipulating things in the FMB.

Thanks for your consideration,

Tim (Gus)

May 15, 2014

Can we all stop quoting entire posts, please? Select the bits that relevant.

May 16, 2014

How much cash would it take for you guys to be able to commit to a new FMB? ie. Is it feasible to have a fundraising/kick starter drive to raise the cash?

I was thinking the same thing.

Yeah, me too!

I have no idea how many members of the community would be willing to chip in, but hey ... I'm in!

May 16, 2014

Bearcat, I am not trying to argue with you or seem obtuse so forgive me if it comes out that way but I feel that there are conflicting answers from the dev's in regards to the FMB issue, Zak says not to worry, that the editor will be coming and that it is simply a matter of some amount of time but Jason seems to be painting a much less certain view on the situation, that is why I am personally concerned, I have yet to see a post indicating that we will 100% be getting a editor released publicly but you may have seen something that I have not seen yet, if so, please point me in that direction.

Again, not trying to argue or be rude or anything, just pointing out why I am still posting on this thread.

I get that .. but getting all excited over something before we even know what it will be is like spending money before you get it.. Remember the angst over the early access.. ? The limited early access.. That's all over now... It seems to me sometimes like too many people around here get their shorts in a knot at the drop of a hat..

May 16, 2014

I don't know Bearcat, I mean, I am pretty flexible when it comes to flight sim related matters and it is very, very rare that I openly speak out against developers about anything really but this mission editor business is a pretty big deal and all I think many of us really want right now is a official word saying either "yes, it will happen and it is simply a matter of waiting" or "It may happen but we have not made any plans in that regard and it could not happen at all".

As far as I am personally concerned, I already have some friends in my group that have told me that this is not a game we will adopt if there is no editor, if there was to be one later, that might be a different story but until there is some sort of official confirmation on that, I can't help but have my doubts.

May 16, 2014

For myself and I'm sure a lot of people, flying public missions & campaigns is nice, and there are a lot of good ones, but making your own missions & campaigns for that specific scenario that you have in mind is a real creative release. When I got introduced to the FMB through the CO of a squadron I was in, it was like a whole world opened up and in a somewhat geeky way it was just so damned cool.

As Bearcat suggested, I couldn't help but share what I learned. And as Stiboo states, those were indeed happy days!

Edited May 16, 2014 by FlyingNutcase

May 16, 2014

For myself and I'm sure a lot of people, flying public missions & campaigns is nice, and there are a lot of good ones, but making your own missions & campaigns for that specific scenario that you have in mind is a real creative release.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

The highest mark of a truly great development is giving the end user the feeling that they themselves can be individually creative with the product.

CS.

Edited May 16, 2014 by CrazySchmidt

May 16, 2014

Guys,

Just a quick note. A separate standalone ME is possible to make by a third party. We always thought someone from the ROF community would come along and do it, but no one ever did and our discussions with talented people who could have possibly provided that went nowhere. We found this to be odd since simmers are such a motivated and creative crowd. Maybe it was because it was WWI and not WWII? Not sure, but Pat Wilson and others have proven that a lot can be done with our current ME scripts if they are matched up to some kind of GUI. Based on our experience with ROF, we have no indication this will change with BOS. So it would probably be up to us to make a new ME.

Now we know what you guys want is a 2D/3D integrated system with the GUI etc. similar to the old Sturmovik ME. For us to do that takes time and quite a bit of money. With the time and budget constraints we were facing when we took on this project it was decided to make a working product first and then see what else we can do.

At launch you will have the QMB and the Career system that will generate a lot of missions for you to fly. Yes, some users will want to make their own complex custom missions, we understand that, but we need to get through the initial release first. As a compromise we are going to work with some folks we already have a relationship with so they can provide some extra mission content for the community. As Loft stated and I stated this is a compromise we are going to implement this summer for a wide variety of reasons already discussed.

My suggestion to everyone interested in this topic is to just be patient and fly BOS to it's fullest extent and enjoy what we have built so far. We've come a long way in a short time. To get completely hung up on this one topic is not really helping the cause right now.

Jason

@Jason.Thanks for posting this.

@All following this topic..My interpretation of whats been said by the Devs is that the FMB is still on the table.Its just not Priority at the moment.They want to work on more important stuff in BOS.That makes sense to me.

The most important "Outcome" of this Topic with all the discussion goin on,is that Devs have seen "There is a Request from Bos flyers to have a FMB"(IMHO).That can only be good for all of us that want a FMB(whatever our reasons).

So as far as Im concerned,this topic has been a success and FMB is still alive. ~S~

Now where is that Radiator on the La5 ?...~S~

May 16, 2014

As a compromise we are going to work with some folks we already have a relationship with so they can provide some extra mission content for the community.

Jason

For me this whole thing is comparable to having a custodian.

Your idea to give FMB only to some "buddies we already know"

sends a statement at me that you have no confidence that the early access user are mature enough

to use ROF Style FMB to their satisfaction.

So you kind of, sorta tell me: Boy you can´t have this, because we know you can´t handle it.

That attitude really makes me scratch my head!

Edited May 16, 2014 by ZG15_Falke

May 16, 2014

I completely misunderstood this product from the beginning, when I decided to back it. My fault, should have asked b4 buying 3 prems.

I hoped a squadron life could be again possible after the catastrophic influences of the Clodo release (right now it is an alternative tbh).

The statement "we will give the ME to buddies we already know" is some kind of we give it to "RoF arians". To me it feels a bit discriminatory.

Well, nothing changed form the first statement to the ME some bollocks than before, but it is not my company.

However I cant recommend the game for active squadrons but casual gamers probably.

Edited May 16, 2014 by 1./JG42Nephris

May 16, 2014

You don't need to. At this moment we're not looking for people whom we can give the mission editor. So noone has to "earn" it, or fight for it, etc. Just calm down and if you want the MB - then please wait for it just like you're waiting for the game release.

I must've misunderstood this post then.

So this doesn't mean that we (meaning everyone, not a selected few) get access to the FMB (relabled RoF FMB if you will) at release in September, but only an improved FMB some unspecific time in the future?

May 16, 2014

I think if Jason or somebody from the team could confirm to us that a FMB IL2-style would be on the top end of their priority list for development post-release many will be more tranquil.

I would like to support the idea to see if fund raising may help here. Indeed I have suggested it already somewhere else and I think it may work to support the development of a fmb. It's really common now to have projects done partially or totally crowd-funded. However, to see if such an idea is worthwhile to pursue we'd need to know what would be the financial goal of such a crowd-funding action. If they need 1 mio $ it may be difficult to gather so much money on a fmb for a niche genre like ours. But if 50 000 $ is enough this seems much more realistic.

May 16, 2014

I think if Jason or somebody from the team could confirm to us that a FMB IL2-style would be on the top end of their priority list for development post-release many will be more tranquil.

I would like to support the idea to see if fund raising may help here. Indeed I have suggested it already somewhere else and I think it may work to support the development of a fmb. It's really common now to have projects done partially or totally crowd-funded. However, to see if such an idea is worthwhile to pursue we'd need to know what would be the financial goal of such a crowd-funding action. If they need 1 mio $ it may be difficult to gather so much money on a fmb for a niche genre like ours. But if 50 000 $ is enough this seems much more realistic.

Good idea, I would be in there as well!

So why not a crowd funding?!

Jason?

LOFT?

Is it worth thinking about it?

Edited May 16, 2014 by ZG15_Falke

May 16, 2014

I don't know Bearcat, I mean, I am pretty flexible when it comes to flight sim related matters and it is very, very rare that I openly speak out against developers about anything really but this mission editor business is a pretty big deal and all I think many of us really want right now is a official word saying either "yes, it will happen and it is simply a matter of waiting" or "It may happen but we have not made any plans in that regard and it could not happen at all".

As far as I am personally concerned, I already have some friends in my group that have told me that this is not a game we will adopt if there is no editor, if there was to be one later, that might be a different story but until there is some sort of official confirmation on that, I can't help but have my doubts.

Again... nowhere is it stated that there will be no editor.. In fact both Jason & Zak have said that there will be one ... so given the track record of the team and the task at hand .. and more importantly the on task nature of the team... everyone just needs to chill out.

For myself and I'm sure a lot of people, flying public missions & campaigns is nice, and there are a lot of good ones, but making your own missions & campaigns for that specific scenario that you have in mind is a real creative release. When I got introduced to the FMB through the CO of a squadron I was in, it was like a whole world opened up and in a somewhat geeky way it was just so damned cool.

As Bearcat suggested, I couldn't help but share what I learned. And as Stiboo states, those were indeed happy days!

Couldn't have put it better myself.

The highest mark of a truly great development is giving the end user the feeling that they themselves can be individually creative with the product.

CS.

I agree.. and I have no doubt that the team will keep all this in mind.. as they have already adapted to us in the bast on some issues.. CS if you remember some of my earlier private communications with you on this very issue were based around some of the sentiments I have expressed on this thread. It is my hope that once we actually see what it is.. that someone with the proper skillset and imagination .. and track record of making quality tools for flight sims.. (hint hint..) may be able to tzke what we have and work it.. so that the devs can concentrate on making the sim better. I have no doubt that there will be some kind of mission builder.. and for now the only thing we do know is that it will be the same as the one in RoF .. and from what I here that editor is a little challenging.. but it is a powerful versatile tool.. in many ways more powerful than the one in IL2 .. just a bit more cumbersome to use..

@Jason.Thanks for posting this.

@All following this topic..My interpretation of whats been said by the Devs is that the FMB is still on the table.Its just not Priority at the moment.They want to work on more important stuff in BOS.That makes sense to me.

The most important "Outcome" of this Topic with all the discussion goin on,is that Devs have seen "There is a Request from Bos flyers to have a FMB"(IMHO).That can only be good for all of us that want a FMB(whatever our reasons).

So as far as Im concerned,this topic has been a success and FMB is still alive. ~S~

Now where is that Radiator on the La5 ?...~S~

This is my take as well...

For me this whole thing is comparable to having a custodian.

Your idea to give FMB only to some "buddies we already know"

sends a statement at me that you have no confidence that the early access user are mature enough

to use ROF Style FMB to their satisfaction.

So you kind of, sorta tell me: Boy you can´t have this, because we know you can´t handle it.

That attitude really makes me scratch my head!

Why do people keep lingering on that statement and ignoring the ones after it?

I think if Jason or somebody from the team could confirm to us that a FMB IL2-style would be on the top end of their priority list for development post-release many will be more tranquil.

I would like to support the idea to see if fund raising may help here. Indeed I have suggested it already somewhere else and I think it may work to support the development of a fmb. It's really common now to have projects done partially or totally crowd-funded. However, to see if such an idea is worthwhile to pursue we'd need to know what would be the financial goal of such a crowd-funding action. If they need 1 mio $ it may be difficult to gather so much money on a fmb for a niche genre like ours. But if 50 000 $ is enough this seems much more realistic.

They have already said that an IL2 style GUI based FMB is not a priority at the moment.. but a ME is planned and it will be a powerful one.. just not what we are used to in IL2. That is my interpretation of what they are saying guys.. If I am wrong in that please someone in the know correct me..

May 16, 2014

Man... I only popped in the other day just to see how the old "777 IL2 Sturm" development was getting on after a few weeks of absence, just to find this topic floating hot, so my 2 cents worth right now as I see it.

This development studio (777) is the best I have seen in recent years for developing classic fighter type sim projects whether it be WWI or WWII, the realism/immersion factor from environmental and mechanical rendering is profound in RoF and is what gave me absolute confidence that 777 studios could produce an absolutely stunning and robust WWII flight sim product i.e. a new version of my beloved IL2 Sturmovik!

When the news was revealed that 777 would be carrying the il2 torch, I was extremely pleased knowing that they would do the product proud. As to date from what I have seen from the weekly updates, it looks absolutely stunning and I have wondered many times if perhaps I should have joined the early access program.

To this point (for me anyway) they have been right on track, but to to realize that potentially the FMB (development model) from the original IL2 Sturmovik (or similar) might not be carried forward in the initial release was a very real indication for me that 777 studios were not seeing it as through the eyes of the IL2 fans. Mission building autonomy is the foundation of IL2's success, if you're a fan you know this already!

Are any of you 777 guys actual IL2 fans? or are you all just doing the best you can to understand the fans perspective because it's what's on your job sheets? It's a simple question, not an attack.

I don't envy any of you and good luck.

CS.

May 16, 2014

Why do people keep lingering on that statement and ignoring the ones after it?

I´m NOT 'people' I´m NOT 'lingering' I´m NOT ignoring anything!!

What is it with you?!

The mentioned Statement is Posted Yesterday, 05:11 so what else is there, did I miss anything?

Edited May 16, 2014 by ZG15_Falke

May 16, 2014

To this point (for me anyway) they have been right on track, but to to realize that potentially the FMB (development model) from the original IL2 Sturmovik (or similar) might not be carried forward in the initial release was a very real indication for me that 777 studios were not seeing it as through the eyes of the IL2 fans. Mission building autonomy is the foundation of IL2's success, if you're a fan you know this already!

Are any of you 777 guys actual IL2 fans? or are you all just doing the best you can to understand the fans perspective because it's what's on your job sheets? It's a simple question, not an attack.

So what do you suggest they drop from the release to make time to develop the FMB, the single player campaign perhaps? Or they could put the release back a few months maybe. Or they could do what they have promised to do and produce a new user friendly FMB after the game is released.

May 16, 2014

You seem to forget option 3:

release the FMB they have got and deliver an improved one whenever it is ready!

Edited May 16, 2014 by ZG15_Falke

May 16, 2014

I personally am not so certain if releasing the FMB as is to the community may help.

I see future incompatibilities between missions created in the FMB "as is" and the real FMB. I already can hear the moaning of mission builders when they want to rework their old missions with the new FMB (which might be necessary because of new objects added, ...) ...

Edited May 16, 2014 by sturmkraehe

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