MC 202 engine info

[5th_Barone]

Hi,

Would be possible to have info on MC202 engine and expecially the in-game difference between the standard and HF (alta quota) variant?

In-game the 202 is modelled around the Alfa RA1000 right?

 

thank you

[FTC_Karaya]

Normal has the DB601Aa

Alta quota has the DB601A-1

 

Difference lies in the full throttle height which is 500m higher for the A-1 and provides more power at higher altitudes. Aa however has more power at altitudes below 4000m.

Edited August 10, 2020 by JG4_Karaya

[5th_Barone]

I'm a little confused

So the Alta quota is in reality a low altitude fighter?

In Italian Alta quota stands for high altitude.

[FTC_Karaya]

I mixed the models in the above post, it's corrected now.

[5th_Barone]

Ok np I imagined.

Just one more question, I don't know if you can help me.

As far as I remember the A1 on E1 had the alten supercharger while A1 on E3&E4 had the neuem (forgive me if it's misspelled).

Is there any difference in-game between the two?

Which of the two the 202 uses?

 

Tks

[FTC_Karaya]

The "old" model DB601A-1 on the E-1 has a lower rate altitude, meaning it will start losing power at 4km.

The "new" model DB601A-1 on the E-3/4 has a rated altitude of 4.5km. Powerwise they are the same. The new model just keeps its power for longer.

 

Old supercharger

 

 New supercharger

 

The 601A-1 started receiving the new supercharger some time at the turn of 1939/40 so by the time the C.202 went into production only A-1s with the new supercharger would have been in service.

 

In course of 1941 the LW pretty much dropped the A-1 entirely in favor of the Aa and N. The Aa had superior low alt performance, the N had superior (low &) high altitude performance so the A-1 had become pointless. Thats why the E-7 in Tobruk comes with either the Aa (E-7) or N (E-7/N) as powerplant.

Edited August 10, 2020 by JG4_Karaya

[5th_Barone]

Thanks for your detailed explanation.

So as far as I understand the 202 is equipped with the same engine as the old e3 and E4 not jabo version (still talking about clod, not the irl one since the serie VII would probably with equipped with the de-rated Monsone).

 

Now it's a bit clear the in-game difference of the models.

[FTC_Karaya]

The Series III and Series VII have the 601Aa engine (same as on the E-3/B, E-4/B and E-7)

The Alta quota models have the 601A-1 (same as on the E-3 and E-4)

 

Nothing about the Monsone engine was derated. It had a cropped supercharger but was cleared for full boost. Also if you have a look at the C.202 aircraft manual for Series IX to XI you will see that both types of engines (A-1, Aa) were obviously equipped as the engine limits are always given as a range, i.e. 1.3 - 1.35ata for combat, 1.4 - 1.45ata for WEP which concides with the limits of the A-1 (1.3, 1.4) and Aa (1.35, 1.45) respectively.

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/manuale_istruzioni_macchi_c-202-pdf.256744/

 

The first few series of C.202s were produced entirely using imported German engines, 601A-1 and Aa, as the production of the Italian licence build Monsone wasnt ready yet or not capable of providing enough engines to meet demand. Anyways the Monsone wasnt really any different from the German original it was based on.

 

The way it is modelled in Tobruk is historical. Nothing has to be changed. As they say: "Do not fix what isnt broken."

Edited August 10, 2020 by JG4_Karaya

[5th_Barone]

Hi Karaya,

 

mine "derated" was a good word to say "crap"

I've managed to read lots of era comment by mech and pilots on db601 vs monsone during my researches in the years (the 202 is one of my favourite frame and probably the only Italian plane of the period I like).

And all were agreed that the alfa engine wasn't near as good as the germans. Even if on paper they had the same specifications.

That's also quite obvious if you take in account the poor standardisation and specialization in mech engeneering and construction that we as Italy had during the period (just think on how difficult was to service the aircraft since lots of part were almost handmade and so different from one plane to another!)

That's what I meant, even if I admit, I used the derated term incorrectly.

Surely the first few 202 entered service with some engines form the 400ish batch of 601 supplied directly by Germany. That's correct.

 

Apart from that I was purely interesting about the in-game spec.

Quote

The way it is modelled in Tobruk is historical. Nothing has to be changed. As they say: "Do not fix what isnt broken."

Just wanted to know how the engine parameters were developed (if from scratch using monsone data or re-using the 601 data from old clod) in order to know hot to manage the engine in-game. I wasn't saying that anything is wrong nor that it needs to be changed.

The aircraft manual is preatty simple and it doesn't specify the difference between the two versions (alta quota or normal), that's why I was asking.

The other part was simply curiosity on how the plane was developed.

 

Thank you for all your info and time sir!

[FTC_Karaya]

For what it's worth engine operating limits were the same for the Monsone and respective DB601 engines, so using the same base engine data ingame for both wouldnt be incorrect. The main difference lies in the prop and prop mechanism on the C.202.

 

There's lots of likeable and admirable Italian aircraft of the period, the Re.2001, C.202/205, G.55, etc. all come to mind. Problem is just that they were very time consuming to produce and not at all fit for mass production which can be seen from the incredibly low production figures of Italian aircraft. The C.202 was the 2nd most produced Italian fighter of the war and even then only ~1200 were produced in total.

[5th_Barone]

Yes.

And it's also the fact that while the engine may be exact replicas the difference also lied in materials and consumables.

While the German (at least in the first years of the war) were high standards the Italians were not.

I never liked the shape of the reggiane. Maybe it's that big deriva on the tail.

G55 was sure a good airplane (as per his later brother g59).

[Buzzsaw]

50 minutes ago, 5th_Barone said:

Yes.

And it's also the fact that while the engine may be exact replicas the difference also lied in materials and consumables.

While the German (at least in the first years of the war) were high standards the Italians were not.

I never liked the shape of the reggiane. Maybe it's that big deriva on the tail.

G55 was sure a good airplane (as per his later brother g59).

G.55 was an incredible aircraft... great performance and handling.

 

Unfortunately for the Italians, it was even more expensive to build than the Macchis.

[5th_Hellrider]

49 minutes ago, Buzzsaw said:

G.55 was an incredible aircraft... great performance and handling.

 

Unfortunately for the Italians, it was even more expensive to build than the Macchis.

 

The main problem for Italy was the very limited industrial capacity. 

From Macchi 202 onwards they were not bad, indeed, they were competitive, but not very effective. Some compotents like radios and weapons were really bad, and these two things are very important for a fighter.

All this combined with pilots not used to "modern dogfight" (after all, it is difficult to do something without a radio and with bad MGs).

 

This little OT to say that Italian fighters (202 and series 5) are often underestimated as plane, but they were actually good.

 

In the African scenario, the presence of the RA was quite remarkable, with also several Macchi 200 (quite bad) and Macchi 202.

 

 

5th Hellrider

[FTC_Karaya]

The Italians sure built some great airframes but they never caught up in a lot of other areas including the development of domestic engines as well as onboard weaponry. By the end of WW2 the only Italian made aircraft weapons were the Breda guns in 7.7mm and 12.7mm as well as the 12.7mm Scotti. Cannons had to be imported from Germany, Italy never bothered developing an own gun in 20mm or higher. Same affair with aircraft engines, all of their latest fighters were powered by licence built German engines.

 

OTOH the Luftwaffe high command actually played with the idea of licence producing the G.55 in Germany, mainly because compared to the Bf109, it had more development potential left in it and could be upgraded to the DB603 with relative ease.

[5th_Barone]

Also consider that the Breda were realized trying to copy the brownings with a rate of fire inadequate for air war use.

All was intended as the scenario was still a ww1 one with closed dogfights.

As Jean said tactics were obsolete even worst that materials.

After war in Spain the Germans gain experience and developed tactics that gave them advantage in the later ww2 (just simply think about formations)

The same did the Soviets commanders but they were wiped out by Stalin's commanders purges.

The Italians due to regime rigid and stupid thinking was the only nation that didn't use the experience of the Spanish conflict to improve.