Flying Circus dead?

[J2_Drookasi]

 

 

Is it dead?

If one does not fly, he should not be complaining for the game 'being dead'. By not flying he is 'killing' the game.

If one does not want to learn by his failures and adapt accordingly, then blaming the (by no means perfect, my personal opinion) damage model is a good excuse to stop trying.

If one wants to keep the game alive and improving (RoF example as posted above) then he is flying, he adopts his tactics and there is still pleasure to be drawn (at least in multiplayer that I only play).

Example the picture above. 12 days of life, 23 live players down. Most of the kills while flying the SPAD. Maybe for some it is not enough, but I will still enjoy the game even if I have to fly against one opponent, who I will search for, find, and engage.

[Zooropa_Fly]

2 hours ago, Rail said:

I've still got the original neoqb CD (2009). It included single mission, campaign and career modes. We were also regularly updated on what was actually in the pipeline, and they delivered on a regular basis. There were also other non-flyable aircraft types(AI) included, which were later made flyable. So we knew what was coming up to a point. No cone of silence in those days.

 

 

I think it was a different dev team back then, and they weren't simultaneously working on loads of other things, that I know of.

Not that the current team need an excuse - we've had two DM updates recently and they keep us informed about what they're doing on a regular basis.

I'm as disappointed as anyone when the DD appears without any ww1 news - but it's not their highest priority. We need to accept that.

The sense of entitlement here is a bit much sometimes, particularly with the current social and business shackles that have been foisted upon us.

Let's be happy there still is a dev team, and hope we all get some of what we want eventually.

I'm no dev fanboy, but I don't have a belief that they exist to pander to my personal whims.

 

S!

[Rail]

I think that the problem is really one of communication. I actually hope for the best from FC but I'm not getting any encouragement from the devs. I need a little hope but I'm not getting it and communication costs nothing. I have no personal whims or complaints. I'm just waiting patiently and reserving my judgement. It seems on the surface that SP has been cut adrift which kinda cuts the customer base in half.

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Rail

[Panzerlang]

Just now, Rail said:

I think that the problem is really one of communication. I actually hope for the best from FC but I'm not getting any encouragement from the devs. I need a little hope but I'm not getting it and communication costs nothing. I have no personal whims or complaints. I'm just waiting patiently and reserving my judgement.

 

 

No, it's not a 'communication problem', it's a 'not fixing sh*t' problem. Multiple attempts to fix or provide stuff isn't an excuse either...sh*t or get off the pot springs to mind. FC is dead because they allowed it to die, in my opinion. The reasons are immaterial too, it is what it is. Wipe your mouths and move on, the existing crowd was already too small, they're going/gone and there ain't remotely enough new blood to fill the gaping holes.

WW2, that's still (just about) a goer. Transfer or find something else (HLL is pretty damn good). 

[Chief_Mouser]

Dev Diary 234, November 1st, was the last time anything was announced for FC and that was its completion: "With this content added, Flying Circus is now complete as it was planned and announced." Apart from DD251 that is, which claimed that "the airframe damage model for the WWI planes will be tuned according to your feedback", and a couple of promo video announcements in other DDs.

Despite Covid, the continuing enhancements to TC and early work on BoN, nine months does seem a long time with absolutely no news.

I'd be very surprised if FC isn't a goner. One poor map, hardly enough aircraft and a community that feels that they've bought into a very watered down version of RoF, albeit with better graphics. It was a very bold move to try and create TC and FC at the same time as the modules of BoX; as a business decision I'm not sure it could ever succeed with the small team that they have, trying to make all three at once.

It's a shame. I loved RoF and hoped that FC would turn out even better. Still hoping for a pleasant surprise in a future DD! ?

Edited August 10, 2020 by 216th_Cat

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

 

[J2_Trupobaw]

It's August. We always get the "Is this game dead" thread in August, for some reason.

OK, this time it's August on top of DM controversy... we will see in October.

(BTW, the new DMs make people dive away as soon as you land a good burst at their crate - which, while annoying and cutting down the scores, strikes me as more historically accurate behaviour than what we had in golden days of FC. Just saying  ).  
 

Edited August 10, 2020 by J2_Trupobaw

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

1 hour ago, 216th_Cat said:

Dev Diary 234, November 1st, was the last time anything was announced for FC and that was its completion: "With this content added, Flying Circus is now complete as it was planned and announced." Apart from DD251 that is, which claimed that "the airframe damage model for the WWI planes will be tuned according to your feedback", and a couple of promo video announcements in other DDs.

Despite Covid, the continuing enhancements to TC and early work on BoN, nine months does seem a long time with absolutely no news.

I'd be very surprised if FC isn't a goner. One poor map, hardly enough aircraft and a community that feels that they've bought into a very watered down version of RoF, albeit with better graphics. It was a very bold move to try and create TC and RoF at the same time as the modules of BoX; as a business decision I'm not sure it could ever succeed with the small team that they have, trying to make all three at once.

It's a shame. I loved RoF and hoped that FC would turn out even better. Still hoping for a pleasant surprise in a future DD! ?

 

I get the same feeling. Diary 234 sounded with finality, aside from tweaks to DM. Those tweaks have been made in the past couple months. The WW2 air theater is more profitable overall, and tank crew is somewhat more experimental and boundary-pushing from a development standpoint. I'm neither positive nor negative on it at this point. I view the game as somewhat frustrating but not "bad". I'm probably more forgiving of its foibles than others are. If there was a Volume 2, it would fall in the "pleasant surprise" category for me and I'd give it a try. I think that if you take the circumstances as a whole, RoF is a stronger offering because FC is still limited.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Krispy_Duck

[BraveSirRobin]

1 hour ago, Rail said:

I think that the problem is really one of communication.

 

 

They’ve done plenty of communicating.  The problem is that you don’t like what they’ve had to say.

[Bussard]

I see a lot of comments on the current DM in FC, mainly about the strength of the wings. 

 

Main questions for me are:

Is the current Damage Modelling realistic?

Are the wings too weak?

Is the ammo too powerful?  

Is it an absolute showstopper to purchase/play the game at this moment?

 

[Tycoon]

2 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

They’ve done plenty of communicating.  The problem is that you don’t like what they’ve had to say.

And what have they said in regards to FC?

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

49 minutes ago, Bussard said:

I see a lot of comments on the current DM in FC, mainly about the strength of the wings. 

 

Main questions for me are:

Is the current Damage Modelling realistic?

Are the wings too weak?

Is the ammo too powerful?  

Is it an absolute showstopper to purchase/play the game at this moment?

 

 

Depends on who you ask, because the answers to those questions aren't very straightforward.  Some are enjoying the game in its current state, while others have given up on it.

 

Try it out yourself and see if it suits you, then report back.

[BraveSirRobin]

9 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

And what have they said in regards to FC?

They’re looking at the DM.  

[Tycoon]

12 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

Your assertion that they were dragging the Pacific out for years is false. Jason most recently provided an update back in January. He's been realistic about what they wanted to do and what problems they ran into. I'm not sure how much more transparent they can be.

 

 

Notice how he ends it with "I still hope we can do the pacific"? Every single time he brought up the pacific before he said that, before BoN was announced, even before BoBP was announced, even though he had to have known that it was no where near and yes he's been saying that for years. There is a reason most people thought the next expansion would be pacific, lack of communication, all he had to do was say "No" with no strings attached like he did in January and the message would have been clear, but he didn't do that until BoN was announced. Do you really think that timing is coincidental? 

 

Edit-  I think I should clarify I'm not saying Jason purposely was trying to mislead people, of course not, just that communication should have been better.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Tycoon

[Rail]

2 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

They’ve done plenty of communicating.  The problem is that you don’t like what they’ve had to say.

You are beginning to understand. It is the quality and not the quantity, and I do not like what they have to say. As customer I can take it or leave it. My opinion is my own and not yours to judge.

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Rail

[Tycoon]

1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

They’re looking at the DM.  

Have they said that since the last DM update for FC?

4 hours ago, J3Hetzer said:

WW2, that's still (just about) a goer. Transfer or find something else (HLL is pretty damn good). 

Funny you should mention HLL, just started playing it and it's very good.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, Tycoon said:

Have they said that since the last DM update for FC?

 

You’re not going to get hourly updates.  Just assume that they’re looking at it until they tell you that they’re not looking at it.

5 minutes ago, Rail said:

You are beginning to understand. It is the quality and not the quantity, and I do not like what they have to say. As customer I can take it or leave it. My opinion is my own and not yours to judge.

 

People judge my opinions all the time.  This is a public forum.   Get used to it.

[Tycoon]

7 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

You’re not going to get hourly updates.  Just assume that they’re looking at it until they tell you that they’re not looking at it.

 

Yeah I know that, but if they said they were looking at it before the update that doesn't mean anything, it could be closed now in their book for all we know.

[Bearcat]

Look guys... Some of us have been doing this for over twenty years... This is what it is... and frankly , for someone who had to step away from the day to day for quite a long time and is now inching my way back here.. seeing some of the same old stuff floating around like turds in a pool .. is kind of disconcerting. From the very start of all this I don't think this team could have been more transparent and since Jason took over it has gotten even more so.. Eight years ago when all this started .. remember the atmosphere? Yet here we are.. with more than any of us at that time envisioned.. I also think that particularly during this whole COVID thing.. which has affected everyone.. people need to just Relax... The team is small.. To be totally honest.. I think that every time some of us start to get our shorts in a knot and decide to do a rage quit.. about one issue or another .... perhaps it would be a good idea to look back through the past 257 Developer Diaries... and then consider that other sim that does what this one does.. 

 

8 hours ago, Rail said:

I've still got the original neoqb CD (2009). It included single mission, campaign and career modes. We were also regularly updated on what was actually in the pipeline, and they delivered on a regular basis. There were also other non-flyable aircraft types(AI) included, which were later made flyable. So we knew what was coming up to a point. No cone of silence in those days.

 

 

Yeah I still have that CD too .... mind you though that endeavor pales in comparison to this one.. Remember in the beginning of RoF you could not play without a internet connection .. 

 

I guess all I am saying is... I always took each sim on it's own merits.. since IL2 was the big dog back in the day and all other sims were a step down in many ways.. (WWII sims anyway..) we really didn't have much of a choice....  I look at each sim as it's own universe with it's own physics laws.. and unless they are way off... you just roll with it.. (no pun intended) ... I bought FC .. and I am not really a fan of WWI flying..  but I caught it on a sale.. and truth be told I have yet to fly it.. but this team has shown time and time again that they want to make a good product .. and that they need to eat .. and I think they have done a pretty decent job of straddling that line under the current conditions in the industry.

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

1 hour ago, Tycoon said:

Funny you should mention HLL, just started playing it and it's very good.

Whats HLL?

 

2 hours ago, Bussard said:

I see a lot of comments on the current DM in FC, mainly about the strength of the wings. 

It's more than that, 1 burst and you lose all your controls.

2 hours ago, Bussard said:

Is the ammo too powerful?  

Probably.

2 hours ago, Bussard said:

Is it an absolute showstopper to purchase/play the game at this moment?

We're still flying it with all it's problems, Thursdays and Sundays are lots of fun and maybe one day they might fix the problems, They should any way, we paid the same amount for FC as we did for IL2 so we should get the same treatment in FC. 

[Izel]

1 hour ago, Bussard said:

I see a lot of comments on the current DM in FC, mainly about the strength of the wings. 

 

Main questions for me are:

Is the current Damage Modelling realistic?

Are the wings too weak?

Is the ammo too powerful?  

Is it an absolute showstopper to purchase/play the game at this moment?

 

 

I think the problem could be described as unbalanced gameplay. Some airplanes (mainly on the Central side) are able to withstand plenty of damage, while others appear very delicate; either your controls become easily disabled, or your wings become very fragile.  This last point is very noticeable with the Camel; to bring a Camel down, you can spray bullets at the wings (little marksmanship required) and that will severely handicap the plane - a future violent manouver from the pilot will probably result in the wings coming off.

 

This *might* be more realistic - I'm in no position to question this- but for many people it lowers the enjoyment factor.  The previous DM encouraged developing good aiming skills and gave rise to more interesting and intense dogfights.

 

I still love it in the current state  ?

 

 

[Tycoon]

6 minutes ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

Whats HLL?

 

 

 Large scale team shooter, with realistic map design, much different experience from most ww2 fps's. 

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

54 minutes ago, Bearcat said:

I bought FC .. and I am not really a fan of WWI flying..  but I caught it on a sale.. and truth be told I have yet to fly it..

And you tell us we should just accept what we have? Dude until you experience what we're talking about I don't think you have the right to say what you did. The DM was close to perfection when FC first came out, every one was happy, no complaints then they went backwards. Your suppose fix fix broken thing not break fixed things.

So get your ass in FC and find out what we're asking to have fixed. 

5 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

Large scale team shooter, with realistic map design, much different experience from most ww2 fps's. 

Where's the fighter planes? 

[Tycoon]

1 hour ago, Bearcat said:

but this team has shown time and time again that they want to make a good product 

You show it by doing it. The road to video game hell is paved with teams that wanted to make something good. Just because they are doing a good job with ww2 doesn't mean they are doing a good job here.

[ZachariasX]

3 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

You show it by doing it. The road to video game hell is paved with teams that wanted to make something good. Just because they are doing a good job with ww2 doesn't mean they are doing a good job here.

You should hear yourself.

[LukeFF]

24 minutes ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

So get your ass in FC and find out what we're asking to have fixed. 

 

You realize Bearcat is a moderator here, right?

[Tycoon]

Just now, LukeFF said:

 

You realize Bearcat is a moderator here, right?

What does that have to do with anything he said?

[LukeFF]

Just now, Tycoon said:

What does that have to do with anything he said?

 

The tone of his message is extremely disrespectful. 

[Zooropa_Fly]

25 minutes ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

And you tell us we should just accept what we have? Dude until you experience what we're talking about I don't think you have the right to say what you did. The DM was close to perfection when FC first came out, every one was happy, no complaints then they went backwards. Your suppose fix fix broken thing not break fixed things.

So get your ass in FC and find out what we're asking to have fixed. 

Where's the fighter planes? 

 

To be fair, I said I though planes were soaking up too may bullets lol.

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

1 minute ago, LukeFF said:

 

You realize Bearcat is a moderator here, right?

And? What are you saying? I said ass, What?

Just now, LukeFF said:

 

The tone of his message is extremely disrespectful. 

What? I didn't say anything disrespectful, Told him to fly FC and see what we're complaining about. How is that being disrespectful? 

[No.23_Gaylion]

Alright fellas, I'll get the lights! Meet up on flugpark then?

[ZachariasX]

17 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said:

Meet up on flugpark then?

Where are you?

[Enceladus828]

The $80 US price tag for 10 planes, a small map, no Career (save for PWCG), and people who supported Rise of Flight got at most a $10-15 discount was what really hurt FC1, not to mention the fact that the map came last and all the planes are planes we can already fly in RoF and have pretty much the same experience.

 

My guess is that they’re waiting for the right time to do a FC2 with a larger map, a Pilot Career, and perhaps 10-15 planes, some entirely new, and cough, cough, having a fair price to those who supported RoF.

Perhaps the right time is not there yet.

 

Salute.

[Bearcat]

1 hour ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

And you tell us we should just accept what we have? Dude until you experience what we're talking about I don't think you have the right to say what you did. The DM was close to perfection when FC first came out, every one was happy, no complaints then they went backwards. Your suppose fix fix broken thing not break fixed things.

So get your ass in FC and find out what we're asking to have fixed. 

Where's the fighter planes? 

 

Yeah .. I get your point... and to a large degree you are right .. but...  I don't recall everyone being happy in any sim at any time.. and I was not posting much but I was lurking .. and everyone was not happy... everyone is never happy .. and I stand by what I said.. people complained and whined in every flight sim I have ever owned over the past 21 years .. from CFS1 to Flaming Cliffs... and this one.. and RoF and FC...  I am not saying that your complaints are unfounded.. what I am saying is that it is what it is.. and you can spend time trying to enjoy it .. or not .. but all the short twisting will do nothing.. and I have been saying this exact same thing since the UBI days .. even about Oleg's IL2 ..  

 

As someone who has to clean up the tears and snot off the floor.. in here.. I can have an opinion on the crying .. and believe me.. when I do get up in it.. which will be soon.. I am almost done with my move and all that ... I will be the first one to tell you I understand.. but my opinion of the reactions will not change.. because that is the way I see flight sims.. and this team has been the most communicative that I have ever seen.. 

[BraveSirRobin]

3 hours ago, Tycoon said:

Yeah I know that, but if they said they were looking at it before the update that doesn't mean anything, it could be closed now in their book for all we know.

ok, then just assume that they’re done with it.

[No.23_Starling]

There's a lot of us here who keep coming back for more and are grateful for what we have; likewise we're trying to adapt to the new DM if we fly the affected planes. In terms of the DM debate, I expect a lot of people would be happy if it moved all the wings back to a middle mean - toughening the weaker ones, and untanking the adamantium ones; likewise, the control failure could just be dialled back a bit. Some fine tuning would go a long way - nobody is suggesting tearing it up - and hopefully bring back some of those ppl driven away from multiplayer by frustration. We all agree that WW1 birds were fragile and could fall apart easy, but one-burst wings sheds on a regular basis in MP is not great for player frustration levels; the same goes for Dviis which take 800 rounds to bring down (I aim for the pilot's head - works well after only a few shots!). It astonishes me that anyone would think otherwise. In terms of those forum posters (and voters in Talbot's poll) who dont think it needs tweaking, they seem to mostly be those who dont actually play FC online or very much at all (why wade into the debate in the first place?), pilots who stick to the tanked planes like the Dvii (from what I can see in the Jasta 5 FlugPark parser - there's nothing wrong with sticking to the Dviif), or those whose opponents are dosy AI and dont pull Gs and rarely hit you back to cause wing-shed worry. That being said, there's 100% nothing wrong with flying offline, and being concerned for your experience from a DM change.

 

Likewise, on content ppl want more, which is a good thing! We love what we have and want more to keep coming back. A lot of us have had our $80 of fun and would happily put down the same again for some more planes (including ports from RoF), another map, and maybe even an official career mode. So many users I come across find the FC experience amazing, particularly in VR. I think it's fair to say, contradictory as it might, that many of the complaints come from a place of passion for the sim and historical era. Some users like dear Emely (banned!) whose language could be a bit er undiplomatic clearly love the sim. Why else would anyone put in that much Dolphin time??

 

Put simply, most of us here love the sim and want to see it succeed and grow, even if we are a demanding mistress.

[BraveSirRobin]

15 minutes ago, US93_Rummell said:

There's a lot of us here who keep coming back for more and are grateful for what we have; likewise we're trying to adapt to the new DM if we fly the affected planes. In terms of the DM debate, I expect a lot of people would be happy if it moved all the wings back to a middle mean - toughening the weaker ones, and untanking the adamantium ones; likewise, the control failure could just be dialled back a bit. Some fine tuning would go a long way - nobody is suggesting tearing it up - and hopefully bring back some of those ppl driven away from multiplayer by frustration. We all agree that WW1 birds were fragile and could fall apart easy, but one-burst wings sheds on a regular basis in MP is not great for player frustration levels; the same goes for Dviis which take 800 rounds to bring down (I aim for the pilot's head - works well after only a few shots!). It astonishes me that anyone would think otherwise. In terms of those forum posters (and voters in Talbot's poll) who dont think it needs tweaking, they seem to mostly be those who dont actually play FC online or very much at all (why wade into the debate in the first place?), pilots who stick to the tanked planes like the Dvii (from what I can see in the Jasta 5 FlugPark parser - there's nothing wrong with sticking to the Dviif), or those whose opponents are dosy AI and dont pull Gs and rarely hit you back to cause wing-shed worry. That being said, there's 100% nothing wrong with flying offline, and being concerned for your experience from a DM change.

 

Likewise, on content ppl want more, which is a good thing! We love what we have and want more to keep coming back. A lot of us have had our $80 of fun and would happily put down the same again for some more planes (including ports from RoF), another map, and maybe even an official career mode. So many users I come across find the FC experience amazing, particularly in VR. I think it's fair to say, contradictory as it might, that many of the complaints come from a place of passion for the sim and historical era. Some users like dear Emely (banned!) whose language could be a bit er undiplomatic clearly love the sim. Why else would anyone put in that much Dolphin time??

 

Put simply, most of us here love the sim and want to see it succeed and grow, even if we are a demanding mistress.

There are always going to be people looking for “tweaks”.  And the next tweak is always the one that will make the game really great!!!  At a certain point you just have to accept what you’ve got.

[No.23_Gaylion]

2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Where are you?

I....... had somewhere else to go......

[No.23_Starling]

17 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

There are always going to be people looking for “tweaks”.  And the next tweak is always the one that will make the game really great!!!  At a certain point you just have to accept what you’ve got.

It’s had as many major tweaks as I have fingers on one hand. I’ll go back to using windows 3.1 I suppose. Better be happy with what I’ve got there! Lol

Edited August 10, 2020 by US93_Rummell

[Tycoon]

33 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

ok, then just assume that they’re done with it.

I don't have to assume, I think we all know it's done, but still why should I have to? How hard is it to say every couple of weeks "we are looking at it" or, "we are not looking at it".