1 P-51 vs 30 German fighters

[JG7_X-Man]

Watching usual Air Warrior: P-51 They made mention to this encounter.

https://worldwarwings.com/how-a-single-mustang-beat-30-german-fighters-greatest-warbird-story-of-wwii/

 

I would like to discuss the actual probability of this being a true encounter.

 

 

 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

Only likely if he managed to stay positioned in such a way that the enemy fighters were constantly in peril of colliding with each other.  

If it was a running/linear fight, not a chance.

[PikAss]

 

43 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

Watching usual Air Warrior: P-51 They made mention to this encounter.

https://worldwarwings.com/how-a-single-mustang-beat-30-german-fighters-greatest-warbird-story-of-wwii/

 

I would like to discuss the actual probability of this being a true encounter.

 

 

[357th_KW]

On Jan 11th  1944 the 8th Air Force launched mission #182 to strike Oschersleben and Halberstadt (aviation industry targets) in central Germany.  291 B-17s of the 1st Bomb Division proceeded to the target - the 372 B-24s and B-17s of the 2nd and 3rd BDs turned back due to weather.  This was a very deep penetration for the time and through the end of 1943 the escort fighters had barely been able to extend past the German border.  Because of this, the Luftwaffe was still making heavy use of Zerstorers as well as night fighters pressed into daylight service, expecting to catch the bombers without escort.  On this mission, 1 P-51 group, Howard's 354th FG, and 2 P-38 groups were in action, along with 11 P-47 groups (592 total sorties).  Luftwaffe interceptors mounted 536 sorties on the day, and heavy combat took place.

 

Richard Turner of the 354th describes the mission in his memoir "Big Friend, Little Friend".  Howard was leading the 354th FG formation that day (roughly 50 P-51Bs) and as they made rendezvous with the bombers near the target area, a large number of 109s and 110s were spotted climbing up to attack the bombers.  Turner stated that there was an overcast layer at around 25,000ft, and they were flying just under it with the bombers at about 17,000ft, much lower than normal.  Turner says in the book that his squadron dove rapidly to attack the German aircraft and inadvertently cut off Howard, who was forced to pull up and got separated from the rest of the unit at this point. 

 

After returning from the mission, Howard only claimed 2-3 110s and 2-4 probable 110s (probables for the USAAF were aircraft that were damaged, and seemed likely to go down, but weren't known to be destroyed, and therefore weren't counted as "kills" - the RAF used the same practice but seemed to track them more).  One of the bomb groups reported that they had seen a single P-51 fend off 30 fighters by itself, and it was determined the next day that this was Howard.  The bomber crews were certain that 6 had gone down, and that's what went into his Medal of Honor citation.  The 354th claimed 15 or 16 (depending on your source) confirmed for the day - Howard was only ever officially credited with 3 according the USAF victory credits report.  8th Air Force fighters claimed another 15 kills that day, all single engine fighters.  The bomber gunners claimed something around 200 for the day - this was obviously wildly inaccurate (Donald Caldwell's data that I'm referring to here indicates that the bomber's claims were typically around 6:1 compared to actual losses, while fighter escort claims were much closer to about 1.25:1).

 

Actual German losses on the day for units intercepting the 8th AF raid were 58 aircraft, with 38 crew KIA and another 28 WIA.  There were a lot of twin engine fighters present - I/ZG26's 110s flew twice for 144 total sorties, and a number of other Zerstorer and night fighter gruppen were in action that day as well.  Total twin engine fighter losses look to be around 16 110s, 2 410s, and 9 Ju88s destroyed with numerous additional aircraft damaged.

 

So in short, Jim Howard almost certainly engaged a large force of 110s by himself after getting split from the rest of his unit.  He definitely shot down some of them, and maybe did get 6 - Luftwaffe losses for the day support it, but he himself only claimed 2 or 3 as definitely destroyed.  And it's easy to see how this was possible given that he was in a P-51B with an altitude advantage attacking Bf110G's (possibly carrying rocket tubes and drop tanks) who weren't used to facing escort fighters over central Germany at this stage in the war.  It's also worth noting that Howard was a very experienced pilot who had already become an ace flying with the AVG in China and had scored a few victories in previous Mustang missions over Europe with the 354th.

 

My sources for this were:

"Day Fighters in Defence of the Reich" by Donald Caldwell

"Big Friend, Little Friend" by Richard Turner

"The Mighty Eighth War Diary" by Roger Freeman

"Fighter Units and Pilots of the 8th Air Force" by Kent Miller

USAF Historical Study #85 - USAF Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft, World War II

Edited July 30, 2020 by KW_1979

[Elem]

Also well documented in BIG WEEK (The biggest air battle of world war two) by James Holland.

[MiloMorai]

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 182. Three aviation industry targets in Germany are hit; fierce opposition estimated at 500 Luftwaffe fighters is encountered and 60 bombers and 5 fighters are lost.

 

1. 177 B-17's are dispatched to Oschersleben; 139 hit the primary and 20 hit targets of opportunity; they claim 174-32-63 Luftwaffe aircraft; 34 B-17's are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 83 damaged; casualties are 9 KIA, 11 WIA and 349 MIA.

 

2. 114 B-17's are dispatched to Halberstadt; 52 hit the primary and 55 hit targets of opportunity; they claim 35-11-19 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 B-17's are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 42 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 18 WIA and 81 MIA. 177 P-47's and 44 Ninth Air Force P-51's escort; they claim 29-11-14 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 P-47's are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 4 P-47's and 1 P-51 are damaged; casualties are 2 KIA and 2 MIA. Major James H Howard, a P-51 pilot of the 354th Fighter Group, shot down an Me 110 and then found himself the lone escort for a B-17 group being attacked by 30 Luftwaffe aircraft. For the next 30 minutes, he kept turning into the enemy fighters and firing until only one gun was firing; by this time, he was credited with 2-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft and saved the B-17's. Major Howard was awarded the Medal of Honor.

 

3. 234 B-17's and 138 B-24's are dispatched to Brunswick; 47 B-17's hit the primary, 114 hit Osnabruck, 25 hit Bielefeld, 22 hit Peine, 10 hit Herford and 1 hit Nienburg; no B-24's hit the primary, 58 hit Meppen, 1 hits Lingen and 7 hit other targets; they claim 19-17-16 Luftwaffe aircraft; 16 B-17's and 2 B-24's are lost, 1 each damaged beyond repair and 47 B-17's and 7 B-24's damaged; casualties are 5 WIA and 176 MIA. This mission is escorted by 49 P-38's and 322 P-47's; they claim 2-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 2 P-47's are lost and 1 P-47 is damaged; casualties are 1 MIA. Among the PFF aircraft are 4 B-24's, this being the first time B-24's are used in this capacity.

HQ 96th Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) is activated at Horsham St Faith, England.

 

http://aircrewremembered.com/USAAFCombatOperations/Jan.44.html